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Official 2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread, Pt. 2 - What's the Yzerplan?

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5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Well if Yzerman agrees with you, I'm sure he'd just waive him. If he's as awful as you say and a buyout candidate then he's not gonna fetch a trade.
Rebuilding cash rich teams don't need to buyout players with 1 year left.

I don't disagree. Just saying that cap space doesn't matter for the next couple years, so a buy-out is an option. Sure, they could waive him, but they might elect to buy him out to give him a chance at another contract, rather than rotting in the minors...

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2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You can speculate all day that Johnny Toes is gonna waive his NMC and demand a trade to the Red Wings this off season because he grew up an Yzerman fan and wants to play for his hero. That's anyone's right.

And it's my right to call that speculation dumb.

Wow. You've been waiting six months to throw that line back at me. Or it just made such an impression that you stole it subconsciously. Either way I'm flattered. 

Also, anyone "convinced" that Trouba wants to come here isn't going to entertain trading anything for him, as they would of course believe we'd be getting him for nothing next summer. Anyone willing to trade for him would do so in order to have the best chance at signing him long-term. You just disagree on what constitutes a fair price. 

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1 minute ago, Buppy said:

Wow. You've been waiting six months to throw that line back at me. Or it just made such an impression that you stole it subconsciously. Either way I'm flattered.

I guess we'll go with the later, I have no idea what you're referencing. I just pulled that outta my ass, unless it really was ur jedi mind tricks working on me.

3 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Also, anyone "convinced" that Trouba wants to come here isn't going to entertain trading anything for him, as they would of course believe we'd be getting him for nothing next summer. Anyone willing to trade for him would do so in order to have the best chance at signing him long-term. You just disagree on what constitutes a fair price. 

Hah tell my friends in this thread that.

The same folks who seem to think he'll end up here one way or the other are also advocating trading for him.

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You trade for him now, so you can take advantage of one more year of him be younger. Whether he's coming here one way or the other, why wait until he's a year older? Trade for him, sign him for 8 years starting now or wait and sign him for 7 years when he's a year older. I make the trade and have a younger Trouba. 

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5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Hah tell my friends in this thread that.

The same folks who seem to think he'll end up here one way or the other are also advocating trading for him.

Not really. My original post was a question of what people thought it would cost if we were to trade for Trouba. My suggestion was a top 4 defenseman that could replace most of the offense they'd be losing for the one season they would have had Trouba, a 9th overall draft pick from two years ago, and a 2nd round pick. Some thought that was too much to give up. Others thought it wasn't enough. I thought it was fair value for the position the Jets are in.

I'm on the fence whether I think we should pony up the pieces to trade for him now, or wait a year to go after him when he hopefully hits free agency. The only way I would be able to make that decision one way or the other, is to have a better idea where Trouba is at in regards to his future. I assume Yzerman has this.

I think the biggest argument has been what it would cost to acquire Trouba. I know we're not giving up Hronek, and I highly doubt we'd give up Veleno, which is why I said your trade proposal was "foolish". I don't think it would cost as much as you and a few others think it would because of the position the Jets are in.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'd rather wait it out and see if we can acquire him in a year's time...

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9 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Because if you bury a 4 mil NHLer in the minors, ur cap hit is still 3.1 mil. Replace him with a less experienced, developing kid with a 900k salary and ur cap hit is exactly the same. 

That's actually not a counter point but thanks for restating what I said.... I'd rather bury Daley/Erricsson and have an up and coming  player in that roster spot... Assuming Cholo or some signee is deemed ready for primetime I hope the fact we have Daley and Ericsson at 3-4 million doesn't block those guys.  Since that cap hit needs to be endured either way it should come at the cost of a year or a good young players career just to make a fringe vet feel good about finishing out in the NHL.

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7 minutes ago, mackel said:

That's actually not a counter point but thanks for restating what I said.... I'd rather bury Daley/Erricsson and have an up and coming  player in that roster spot... Assuming Cholo or some signee is deemed ready for primetime I hope the fact we have Daley and Ericsson at 3-4 million doesn't block those guys.  Since that cap hit needs to be endured either way it should come at the cost of a year or a good young players career just to make a fringe vet feel good about finishing out in the NHL.

With Holland, I think this would be the case. With Yzerman, I think we'll see some of these situations handled differently.

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1 hour ago, mackel said:

That's actually not a counter point but thanks for restating what I said.... I'd rather bury Daley/Erricsson and have an up and coming  player in that roster spot... Assuming Cholo or some signee is deemed ready for primetime I hope the fact we have Daley and Ericsson at 3-4 million doesn't block those guys.  Since that cap hit needs to be endured either way it should come at the cost of a year or a good young players career just to make a fringe vet feel good about finishing out in the NHL.

Because an overpaid vet is still usually the better player. You can put an NHL caliber player making 1 or 2 mil more than he should on your roster or a less expensive, but generally green kid making much less. Most teams would rather keep the better player on the roster even if he's overpaid. The only way they would bury the more expensive vet is if the kid that's replacing him is legitimately better. The reason I dont burt Daley in favor of Cholowski is because , although overpaid, Daley is still the better player.

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3 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

You trade for him now, so you can take advantage of one more year of him be younger. Whether he's coming here one way or the other, why wait until he's a year older? Trade for him, sign him for 8 years starting now or wait and sign him for 7 years when he's a year older. I make the trade and have a younger Trouba. 

This.  Winnepeg needs to replace a top 4 D set to make 8 mil per with a top 4 D set to make 925k.  Trade them the #6 pick and Green.  This allows them a stop gap in Green for a few seasons while their pick develops.  

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The only way I trade that 6th pick is if it's on draft day, and it's only a few spots back, and the board is favorable. We still do not have elite center depth.  We can get it this year with one of Turcotte, Zegras, Cozens, or Dach.  Our prospect pool on defense is really good already.  We also made shrewd moves with Bowey and Kaski.  Between those two, Hronek, Cholowski, McIsaac, Lindstrom, Regula, and Barton we've got some really good young defensemen in our system.  As also have as good as shot as anyone to sign Trouba if he hits UFA (the dude wears Detroit hats in post game pressers FFS).  You don't trade your best possible shot at creating dangerous center depth given all that. 

image.png.456867339c13b74b4a3421e2e4a9e1f1.png

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26 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Because an overpaid vet is still usually the better player. You can put an NHL caliber player making 1 or 2 mil more than he should on your roster or a less expensive, but generally green kid making much less. Most teams would rather keep the better player on the roster even if he's overpaid. The only way they would bury the more expensive vet is if the kid that's replacing him is legitimately better. The reason I dont burt Daley in favor of Cholowski is because , although overpaid, Daley is still the better player.

So much wrong with this post...

Trevor Daley is NOT better than Dennis Cholowski. Not even close. He wasn't last season, and he certainly won't be next season. Daley had some of the worst underlying numbers in the entire NHL last season. Like, legitimately bottom 5-10 in the league. Cholowski was MUCH better than Daley to start the season, but he eventually hit a brick wall, which most rookies do. He started to struggle and was eventually sent down to Grand Rapids, for good reason. After the season he just had, and an offseason we expect him to have, he should be capable of taking another step in his development. At 36 years old, Daley will most certainly take a step back (if that's even possible after the horrid season he just had).

All of that aside though, a rebuilding team should almost always play the young, skilled kid (assuming he's ready), over the old, s***ty vet. Cholowski >>> Daley

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Unless he's just insane in training camp I'd start Cholowski in the AHL next season.  If he dominates, then he's the first call up and he can do what Hronek did last year.  While I agree that he's probably a better player than Daley or Ericsson at this point, he still struggled pretty badly.  If he has indeed taken another step in his development he can prove it for the Griffins and then take over in due time.

That said I'd still waive one of Daley or Ericsson if Kronwall retires, give Green top line minutes to pump up his trade value, and Kaski up full time.  My lineup would be something like this.

DK-Green

Kronwall-Hronek

Ericsson/Daley-Bowey

Kaski

Edited by kipwinger

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11 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Unless he's just insane in training camp I'd start Cholowski in the AHL next season.  If he dominates, then he's the first call up and he can do what Hronek did last year.  While I agree that he's probably a better player than Daley or Ericsson at this point, he still struggled pretty badly.  If he has indeed taken another step in his development he can prove it for the Griffins and then take over in due time.

I'm not opposed to Cholowski starting in Grand Rapids. I don't think it would be the worst thing for his development, but assuming he has a similar camp as last season and once again looks like he belongs, I'd play him over Daley. Just hope that he's better conditioned for the grind of an 82 game NHL season. I think he will be.

Of course it all depends on what happens this offseason, and how players perform in training camp / preseason, but I'd think Cholowski would be ahead of Kaski at this point.

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4 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

You trade for him now, so you can take advantage of one more year of him be younger. Whether he's coming here one way or the other, why wait until he's a year older? Trade for him, sign him for 8 years starting now or wait and sign him for 7 years when he's a year older. I make the trade and have a younger Trouba. 

Give up assets for one extra year in a rebuilding season. Great idea.

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Not really. My original post was a question of what people thought it would cost if we were to trade for Trouba. My suggestion was a top 4 defenseman that could replace most of the offense they'd be losing for the one season they would have had Trouba, a 9th overall draft pick from two years ago, and a 2nd round pick. Some thought that was too much to give up. Others thought it wasn't enough. I thought it was fair value for the position the Jets are in.

I'm on the fence whether I think we should pony up the pieces to trade for him now, or wait a year to go after him when he hopefully hits free agency. The only way I would be able to make that decision one way or the other, is to have a better idea where Trouba is at in regards to his future. I assume Yzerman has this.

I think the biggest argument has been what it would cost to acquire Trouba. I know we're not giving up Hronek, and I highly doubt we'd give up Veleno, which is why I said your trade proposal was "foolish". I don't think it would cost as much as you and a few others think it would because of the position the Jets are in.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'd rather wait it out and see if we can acquire him in a year's time...

I agree with the 2nd bolded

On 5/26/2019 at 6:09 PM, krsmith17 said:

Hronek is off the table. Yzerman will work his magic. Trouba will be a Red Wing. 

On 5/27/2019 at 4:17 AM, krsmith17 said:

I do agree though that we should probably just wait it out a season, and hope we can sign him as a free agent next summer...

On 5/28/2019 at 8:03 AM, krsmith17 said:

 I do think Yzerman will acquire Trouba, and I do think it will be for MUCH less than some of you are thinking it will be.

19 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think Trouba has played his last game in Winnipeg. I think he will be traded before training camp. I think there's a good chance he lands in Detroit. I also think he will end up being traded for a lot less than you and a few others are expecting.

You seem to think it's smarter to wait, but also that Yzerman will get the deal done now.

Does that mean Yzerman's dumb?

54 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

The only way I trade that 6th pick is if it's on draft day, and it's only a few spots back, and the board is favorable. We still do not have elite center depth.  We can get it this year with one of Turcotte, Zegras, Cozens, or Dach.  Our prospect pool on defense is really good already.  We also made shrewd moves with Bowey and Kaski.  Between those two, Hronek, Cholowski, McIsaac, Lindstrom, Regula, and Barton we've got some really good young defensemen in our system.  As also have as good as shot as anyone to sign Trouba if he hits UFA (the dude wears Detroit hats in post game pressers FFS).  You don't trade your best possible shot at creating dangerous center depth given all that. 

image.png.456867339c13b74b4a3421e2e4a9e1f1.png

Karlsson wears Tigs hats too. It's a cool hat.

45 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

So much wrong with this post...

Trevor Daley is NOT better than Dennis Cholowski. Not even close. He wasn't last season, and he certainly won't be next season. Daley had some of the worst underlying numbers in the entire NHL last season. Like, legitimately bottom 5-10 in the league. Cholowski was MUCH better than Daley to start the season, but he eventually hit a brick wall, which most rookies do. He started to struggle and was eventually sent down to Grand Rapids, for good reason. After the season he just had, and an offseason we expect him to have, he should be capable of taking another step in his development. At 36 years old, Daley will most certainly take a step back (if that's even possible after the horrid season he just had).

All of that aside though, a rebuilding team should almost always play the young, skilled kid (assuming he's ready), over the old, s***ty vet. Cholowski >>> Daley

So post Daley's underlying numbers

I certainly agree Daley declined this last season. But was Cholowski clearly the better player last season? IDK if it's that black n white. Maybe the fancy stats would convince me.

36 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Unless he's just insane in training camp I'd start Cholowski in the AHL next season.  If he dominates, then he's the first call up and he can do what Hronek did last year.  While I agree that he's probably a better player than Daley or Ericsson at this point, he still struggled pretty badly.  If he has indeed taken another step in his development he can prove it for the Griffins and then take over in due time.

That said I'd still waive one of Daley or Ericsson if Kronwall retires, give Green top line minutes to pump up his trade value, and Kaski up full time.  My lineup would be something like this.

DK-Green

Kronwall-Hronek

Ericsson/Daley-Bowey

Kaski

I'd be absolutely fine with waiving both Ericsson and Daley provided the kids prove they can handle it full time (I'm assuming Kronwall retires)

DK - Hronek
Cholo - Green
Kaski - Bowey

I think we will sign more Dmen yet though

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Personally I'd like to land about 3 free agents this off-season. Spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $12 million, as I want to save money for AA's, Bertuzzi's, and Mantha's raises next year. I would kick the tires on the big names, but I'm pretty unconvinced that any will want to sign with Detroit right now.

Nyquist will probably be on our radar. They had to bring Karlsson and Kronwall in to talk him into waiving his NTC to go to SJ. Who knows if he still longs to be here. If the price is right it could be an option, but we're kinda deep at wings already.

Michael Ferland is a player I sorta like. Physical, aggressive, hard-working, but is talented enough to also add offense and points. If a short deal can be reached I might be partial, as these kinda guys tend to wear down quickly (he's a fresh 27). But again we're kinda deep at wing.

Alexander Edler I would have thought would be on the radar, based on Holland wanting to draft him over Franzen back when. But Holland is gone. Still, he could be a nice defensive vet coming in with Kronwall possibly retiring and Green possibly getting shelved with his kidney infection. I'd be happy to chuck Ericsson and Daley into the minors to make room for him.

Anton Stralman. Similar to Edler, but maybe Yzerman can use his connection with him from Tampa to lure him in. I'm not sure we need another RH D right now what with Green, Hronek, and Bowey on the roster, but Bowey is still not a sure thing in my mind and Green could spend a lot of the season on IR. If that's the case Stralman could be a good option.

Riley Barber. RW shoots right. 6'0, 200 lbs. Just turned 25. Former 6th round pick of the Caps. Caps never gave him a shot in the NHL despite being a point per game AHLer who scored 31 goals this year. I watched him play when he was in college and always really liked the way he played. Surprised the Caps have only given him 3 NHL games over his last 4 AHL seasons. He was very good in all of them. Could probably be had for cheap. Low risk high reward project. If he doesn't work send him down to the AHL to play with our kids.

Alex Chiasson. Like Ferland, nasty player and tough to play against, can pick up a few points. Shoots right which is nice. Again, we're sorta deep at wing. Still 28, on a short deal could be ok.

The spot I really want to add at is Center. But no one really jumps out at me that isn't going to go sign with a contending team. Maybe Colin Wilson? Val Filppula? 1 year of an old broken down Spezza?

Anyway there should be a lot of teams moving and shaking this offseason to get under the cap. I think it will be interesting late June/July.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Personally I'd like to land about 3 free agents this off-season. Spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $12 million, as I want to save money for AA's, Bertuzzi's, and Mantha's raises next year. I would kick the tires on the big names, but I'm pretty unconvinced that any will want to sign with Detroit right now.

Nyquist will probably be on our radar. They had to bring Karlsson and Kronwall in to talk him into waiving his NTC to go to SJ. Who knows if he still longs to be here. If the price is right it could be an option, but we're kinda deep at wings already.

Michael Ferland is a player I sorta like. Physical, aggressive, hard-working, but is talented enough to also add offense and points. If a short deal can be reached I might be partial, as these kinda guys tend to wear down quickly (he's a fresh 27). But again we're kinda deep at wing.

Alexander Edler I would have thought would be on the radar, based on Holland wanting to draft him over Franzen back when. But Holland is gone. Still, he could be a nice defensive vet coming in with Kronwall possibly retiring and Green possibly getting shelved with his kidney infection. I'd be happy to chuck Ericsson and Daley into the minors to make room for him.

Anton Stralman. Similar to Edler, but maybe Yzerman can use his connection with him from Tampa to lure him in. I'm not sure we need another RH D right now what with Green, Hronek, and Bowey on the roster, but Bowey is still not a sure thing in my mind and Green could spend a lot of the season on IR. If that's the case Stralman could be a good option.

Riley Barber. RW shoots right. 6'0, 200 lbs. Just turned 25. Former 6th round pick of the Caps. Caps never gave him a shot in the NHL despite being a point per game AHLer who scored 31 goals this year. I watched him play when he was in college and always really liked the way he played. Surprised the Caps have only given him 3 NHL games over his last 4 AHL seasons. He was very good in all of them. Could probably be had for cheap. Low risk high reward project. If he doesn't work send him down to the AHL to play with our kids.

Alex Chiasson. Like Ferland, nasty player and tough to play against, can pick up a few points. Shoots right which is nice. Again, we're sorta deep at wing. Still 28, on a short deal could be ok.

The spot I really want to add at is Center. But no one really jumps out at me that isn't going to go sign with a contending team. Maybe Colin Wilson? Val Filppula? 1 year of an old broken down Spezza?

Anyway there should be a lot of teams moving and shaking this offseason to get under the cap. I think it will be interesting late June/July.

Do you think Mitch Marner is a possibility at all?  Or Zero percent?

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1 minute ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Do you think Mitch Marner is a possibility at all?  Or Zero percent?

I hope Yzerman offer sheets him just to f*** with them

But it sounds like the Leafs fans are all ok with getting 4 first rounders for him. So maybe I don't hope that.

I think the Leafs will move pieces like Kadri to make room for him.

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1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You seem to think it's smarter to wait, but also that Yzerman will get the deal done now.

Does that mean Yzerman's dumb?

I'll admit that I was flip flopping a little there... My bad...

Here's how I feel about the situation... I think Trouba could be had for less than what you think it would cost. However, if Yzerman feels he could acquire Trouba for free next offseason, I think he will do that, rather than giving up assets now. He has already inquired about him, and I'm sure he has a better idea where Trouba's head is at than any of us...

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So post Daley's underlying numbers

I'm not able to link anything right now, but I know for a fact that his Corsi, Fenwick SAT% and GAR were amongst the worst in the league. Not to mention his whopping 8 points... Cholowski had 8 points in his first 11 NHL games. Of course he was never going to keep up that pace, but if he hadn't hit that wall around the 30-40 game mark, he could have legitimately been a 30+ point defenseman in his rookie season at the age of 20/21.

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21 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Personally I'd like to land about 3 free agents this off-season. Spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $12 million, as I want to save money for AA's, Bertuzzi's, and Mantha's raises next year. I would kick the tires on the big names, but I'm pretty unconvinced that any will want to sign with Detroit right now.

The spot I really want to add at is Center. But no one really jumps out at me that isn't going to go sign with a contending team. Maybe Colin Wilson? Val Filppula? 1 year of an old broken down Spezza?

Anyway there should be a lot of teams moving and shaking this offseason to get under the cap. I think it will be interesting late June/July.

I don't really have much interest in signing any UFA's, unless they're one-year stop-gaps. I guess if we were to sign one, I'd be okay with a Riley Barber type signing on a two-way contract for depth.

17 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Do you think Mitch Marner is a possibility at all?  Or Zero percent?

Zero. If we're going to offer sheet a player (I don't think we will), Kapanen would be the only player that I'd have any interest in.

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19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'll admit that I was flip flopping a little there... My bad...

Here's how I feel about the situation... I think Trouba could be had for less than what you think it would cost. However, if Yzerman feels he could acquire Trouba for free next offseason, I think he will do that, rather than giving up assets now. He has already inquired about him, and I'm sure he has a better idea where Trouba's head is at than any of us...

That report was from NHLTradeRumors which is a total BS fake rumor monger-er. As far as we know Yzerman has been golfing the last few weeks and hasn't contacted anyone.

The bit about Yzerman inquiring about Trouba. Hronek being off the table. Winnipeg wanting Kuffner and Puempel. All made up.

Here's the other rumor their peddling right now: McDavid wants out of Edmonton and Detroit is a top 3 destination. As soon as the playoffs end Holland will ask for Zadina, Rasmussen, Mantha, Athansiou, and Hicketts in exchange for McDavid.

Really hard hitting stuff

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

That report was from NHLTradeRumors which is a total BS fake rumor monger-er. As far as we know Yzerman has been golfing the last few weeks and hasn't contacted anyone.

I assumed the report that Yzerman has inquired on Trouba was actual news... So the whole thing is bogus as far as we know?

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11 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I assumed the report that Yzerman has inquired on Trouba was actual news... So the whole thing is bogus as far as we know?

Yeah the whole thing comes from a blogger named Ryan Beliveau who I guess works for NHLTradeRumors. He sites the Athletic as his source. Except the Athletic never reported any of this.

He's preying on fans who don't want to pay for or can't afford to pay for the Athletic.

EDIT: I found him on twitter. He's some random MTL fan with 63 followers. Seems like a college student or something. Tweets about weed and music about as much as he does hockey. Couple classic f*** Bergevin Fire Bergevin tweets in their too lol

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Yeah the whole thing comes from a blogger named Ryan Beliveau who I guess works for NHLTradeRumors. He sites the Athletic as his source. Except the Athletic never reported any of this.

He's preying on fans who don't want to pay for or can't afford to pay for the Athletic.

Never even heard of the site to be honest. I just assumed that it was at least partially true (the Yzerman inquiring part). Obviously knew the ask was way too low... Well that kinda blows...

Oh well... Trouba will be a Red Wing regardless...

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3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

So much wrong with this post...

Trevor Daley is NOT better than Dennis Cholowski. Not even close. He wasn't last season, and he certainly won't be next season. Daley had some of the worst underlying numbers in the entire NHL last season. Like, legitimately bottom 5-10 in the league. Cholowski was MUCH better than Daley to start the season, but he eventually hit a brick wall, which most rookies do. He started to struggle and was eventually sent down to Grand Rapids, for good reason. After the season he just had, and an offseason we expect him to have, he should be capable of taking another step in his development. At 36 years old, Daley will most certainly take a step back (if that's even possible after the horrid season he just had).

All of that aside though, a rebuilding team should almost always play the young, skilled kid (assuming he's ready), over the old, s***ty vet. Cholowski >>> Daley

So then why was Cholowski sent down instead of Daley last year? If they could have sent down either player, than why send down the younger, better one? That would he illogical.

If you waive/buyout/demote Daley, how does that benefit Cholowski at this point? He would get top pair minutes in GR. He would get less ice time in Detroit being behind Green, Hronek and DD at the very least. So why not keep him in GR to start the season and bring him up after trading Daley at the TDL? I have no doubt that some playoff team would want to add Daley for depth and his cup pedigree. At least we would get something in return instead of getting nothing burying him in the AHL or buying him out.

If Cholowski was truly NHL ready, he will/would be on the roster. There are plenty of depth players who can be traded/sent down to make room for him. You dont need to buyout a player or bury a vet in most cases.

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