2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread, Pt. 2 - What's the Yzerplan?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I was more interested in the 30 and the two 2nd rounders.  I figured Bouchard.  We could be sitting a lot worse had those two not slid. 

I would guess Berggren was their pick at 30.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

All joking aside, I would love to see last year's Red Wings draft board just to see who we would have taken if not for Zadina and Veleno sliding. 

I'd be more interested to see where they had Zadina and Veleno ranked... I would think Zadina would have been 3 or 4 on their list, and I wouldn't be surprised if Veleno would have been top 10 or so on their list... He was on mine...

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

I think Helene recently confirmed that Bouchard was Our Guy. FWIW.

Yeah, that's what I heard as well. He was who I was hoping for at 6, until Zadina slipped. I still would have been okay with Bouchard there, but more than okay with Zadina as well...

47 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Give me one Turris please. Can play with Mantha and center the 2nd line.

Meh. I'd take Turris if they were trying to dump him, but he wouldn't be a player I'd give up a ton for... Even after seeing the chemistry he had with Mantha at the WC.

Another 5 years at $6M for a 30-35 year old, good for 40-50 points... seems like another Nielsen type player. We need less Nielsen, not more. But hey, if they'd trade him for Nielsen and a pick, I'd do it... That obviously wouldn't get it done, and defeats the purpose of trading him in the first place, with only $750K in cap savings... So, no thanks...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Another 5 years at $6M for a 30-35 year old, good for 40-50 points... seems like another Nielsen type player. We need less Nielsen, not more. But hey, if they'd trade him for Nielsen and a pick, I'd do it... That obviously wouldn't get it done, and defeats the purpose of trading him in the first place, with only $750K in cap savings... So, no thanks...

It would be a very hard trade to make happen. Our needs and Nashvilles don't really line up.

that said I like Turris a lot more than Nielsen.

Maybe if they take Daley back and/or Helm back or something

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It would be a very hard trade to make happen. Our needs and Nashvilles don't really line up.

that said I like Turris a lot more than Nielsen.

Maybe if they take Daley back and/or Helm back or something

I like Turris a LOT more than Nielsen now, but what about in another 2-3 years from now? Maybe we can make that trade and move Nielsen in another trade. I'd be okay with that. I just wouldn't want both Nielsen and Turris with Veleno on the verge of making the team in the next year.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

I like Turris a LOT more than Nielsen now, but what about in another 2-3 years from now? Maybe we can make that trade and move Nielsen in another trade. I'd be okay with that. I just wouldn't want both Nielsen and Turris with Veleno on the verge of making the team in the next year.

Meh let Veleno rot in the minors

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Meh let Veleno rot in the minors

You can rot in HELL!... 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Meh let Veleno rot in the minors

Now that Holland is gone, no more over ripening.

[Akakabuto 1,749]

Veleno is our 2C by the end of next season. 

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

14 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Now that Holland is gone, no more over ripening.

Hopefully.  As I've said before, good NHL players don't spend multiple seasons in the minors.  Ken Holland didn't seem to believe that.  Over ripening never produced anything but bottom six forwards and third pairing defensemen.  In other words, journeymen.  

Edited June 3, 2019 by GMRwings1983

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Hopefully.  As I've said before, good NHL players don't spend multiple seasons in the minors.  Ken Holland didn't seem to believe that.  Over ripening never produced anything but bottom six forwards and third pairing defensemen.  In other words, journeymen.  

Maybe they were never really that good and that's why they spent years in the minors

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

12 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Hopefully.  As I've said before, good NHL players don't spend multiple seasons in the minors.  Ken Holland didn't seem to believe that.  Over ripening never produced anything but bottom six forwards and third pairing defensemen.  In other words, journeymen.  

Over ripening never turned top 6 F and top pair D into bottom 6 F and bottom pair D. The weaker results from our prospect pool is a result of having later draft picks, trading away prospects, and individual player talents.

The only player who was ever held down who was arguably both NHL ready and better at his position than other players already on the roster was Nyquist.

Bringing up a player too soon is more likely to damage a player's development than leaving them down too long. At worst, over ripening results in a zero gain in development, not a regression.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Czech Interview with Fischer (Rough google translation)

Basically explains it's Fischer's job to explore the players who were never drafted but are still young enough to possibly make the NHL. AKA Kaski, Sulak, Rybar, Machovsky, Hirose, Kuffner, Dekeyser, etc etc.

Fischer explains that part of what he's doing is creating internal competition. It's necessary to sign these types of players to also create competition within the organization, even if they never make the big club.

Fischer says his long-term goal is to become an NHL GM, but for now he is focused on scouting.

He and Yzerman have discussed what types of player Yzerman is interested in. Says Yzerman still commands a ton of respect in the room. People stop to listen when he enters.

Some very rough translation when talking about Zadina and Hronek. Sounds like he legitimately believes Zadina should have been a #3 pick and praises Hronek's off ice character.

Says the AHL tested Zadina mentally, but now he knows exactly where he needs to improve his game. Says Zadina must now learn to defend and win. Not worried about his development.

The end of the article he talks about how Czech hockey is falling out of favor. Losing ground as a major hockey country.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Czech Interview with Fischer (Rough google translation)

Basically explains it's Fischer's job to explore the players who were never drafted but are still young enough to possibly make the NHL. AKA Kaski, Sulak, Rybar, Machovsky, Hirose, Kuffner, Dekeyser, etc etc.

Fischer explains that part of what he's doing is creating internal competition. It's necessary to sign these types of players to also create competition within the organization, even if they never make the big club.

Fischer says his long-term goal is to become an NHL GM, but for now he is focused on scouting.

He and Yzerman have discussed what types of player Yzerman is interested in. Says Yzerman still commands a ton of respect in the room. People stop to listen when he enters.

Some very rough translation when talking about Zadina and Hronek. Sounds like he legitimately believes Zadina should have been a #3 pick and praises Hronek's off ice character.

Says the AHL tested Zadina mentally, but now he knows exactly where he needs to improve his game. Says Zadina must now learn to defend and win. Not worried about his development.

The end of the article he talks about how Czech hockey is falling out of favor. Losing ground as a major hockey country.

Problem with the internal competition thing is our bad contracts.  Abdelkader at 2 mil per year is easier for the coach to bench in favor of a 1 million a year guy than Abdelkader at 4 mil a year.  Now that Holland is gone tho, Blashill might have a little more leeway.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Sulak signing in the KHL

[amato 3,210]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Problem with the internal competition thing is our bad contracts.  Abdelkader at 2 mil per year is easier for the coach to bench in favor of a 1 million a year guy than Abdelkader at 4 mil a year.  Now that Holland is gone tho, Blashill might have a little more leeway.

Contracts don't stop anyone from being benched. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

9 minutes ago, amato said:

Contracts don't stop anyone from being benched. 

Are you high?  Try firing or even repremanding your boss' guy at work today.  Tell me how it goes.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

27 minutes ago, amato said:

Contracts don't stop anyone from being benched. 

I agree. I don't think Holland ever made Blashill play anyone because of their contracts. Like it or not, the guys who are overpaid (Abby, Helm, Daley, etc) are still better than guys like Ehn, Frk, Witkowski, Hicketts, Sulak...thats why they got to play, not because Ken was micro managing the lineup.

[kipwinger 8,522]

18 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Hopefully.  As I've said before, good NHL players don't spend multiple seasons in the minors.  Ken Holland didn't seem to believe that.  Over ripening never produced anything but bottom six forwards and third pairing defensemen.  In other words, journeymen.  

Seemed to work out for Howard, Hudler, Tatar, and Nyquist.  All of whom spent 3 years in the AHL.  If by "multiple years in the minors" you mean 2+ years then that group would include AA, Bertuzzi, and Mantha as well. 

And that's just the North American "minors".  If you include guys from overseas who stayed with their minor clubs for "multiple" years after they were drafted it would include Kronwall (4 years in minors after being drafted), Datsyuk (3 years), and Zetterberg (3 years). 

Edited June 4, 2019 by kipwinger

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

32 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Seemed to work out for Howard, Hudler, Tatar, and Nyquist.  All of whom spent 3 years in the AHL.  If by "multiple years in the minors" you mean 2+ years then that group would include AA, Bertuzzi, and Mantha as well. 

And that's just the North American "minors".  If you include guys from overseas who stayed with their minor clubs for "multiple" years after they were drafted it would include Kronwall (4 years in minors after being drafted), Datsyuk (3 years), and Zetterberg (3 years). 

What evidence is there that these players would have been worse had they been called up sooner?  

[kipwinger 8,522]

4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

What evidence is there that these players would have been worse had they been called up sooner?  

What evidence is there that they wouldn't? 

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

What evidence is there that they wouldn't? 

Well there better be if you're going to keep a guy in the minors.  If someone is ready to play in the NHL, they need to be called up.  There's only so much you can learn from playing in the minors.  There are many players who never do anything at the NHL level, but dominate the AHL.  What can a Mantha or Tatar learn in the AHL, when a guy like Jason Krog is dominating that league?  

The exception would be if you have a logjam at the NHL level.  Then you can't call everyone up from the minors, even if they belong in the NHL.  However, that's not overriping as much as it is hindering someone's development due to having no room in the lineup.        

[kipwinger 8,522]

38 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Well there better be if you're going to keep a guy in the minors.  If someone is ready to play in the NHL, they need to be called up.  There's only so much you can learn from playing in the minors.  There are many players who never do anything at the NHL level, but dominate the AHL.  What can a Mantha or Tatar learn in the AHL, when a guy like Jason Krog is dominating that league?  

The exception would be if you have a logjam at the NHL level.  Then you can't call everyone up from the minors, even if they belong in the NHL.  However, that's not overriping as much as it is hindering someone's development due to having no room in the lineup.        

But that's not what you said, and it's also assuming a premise that's very much in debate.  You said overripening never produced anything but bottom six forwards and bottom pair defensemen. I named you multiple top six forwards and top four defensemen who were "over ripened".  Now it's reasonable to ask whether they would have turned out to be top guys anyway, but I don't think the evidence suggests that was obvious prior to their "over ripening".  Aside from Mantha, none of the guys I mentioned were 1st round picks.  None of Tatar, Hudler, AA or Bertuzzi were dominating the AHL.  Datsyuk was an overager. Zetterberg wasn't even the top prospect we were scouting when we first found him. Even Mantha struggled as an AHLer (leading to the "very very disappointed" comment by Devellano).  His rookie AHL season was worse than Svechnikov's.  So it's not clear cut that ANY of them were "ready" for the NHL within a year of being drafted, much less ready to be top six forwards or top four defensemen.

Edited June 4, 2019 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Over-ripening is just a meme that the "Gibs me muh pruspects now" crowd has clung to.

By and large most prospects make the team when there good enough to. Some even get their looks before they're good enough to.

What year did Holland first utter the phrase? It was probably a year where we were stacked and there was no room to promote anyone anyway. Thus his "over-ripe philosophy" was spun.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Over-ripening is just a meme that the "Gibs me muh pruspects now" crowd has clung to.

By and large most prospects make the team when there good enough to. Some even get their looks before they're good enough to.

What year did Holland first utter the phrase? It was probably a year where we were stacked and there was no room to promote anyone anyway. Thus his "over-ripe philosophy" was spun.

That's probably true.  It's good if the main team is so stacked that they don't have room to call up players.  However, that basically means NHL ready players are being held back and are wasting their time in the minors.  Not sure if that's a good thing in the long run for those players.   

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

But that's not what you said, and it's also assuming a premise that's very much in debate.  You said overripening never produced anything but bottom six forwards and bottom pair defensemen. I named you multiple top six forwards and top four defensemen who were "over ripened".  Now it's reasonable to ask whether they would have turned out to be top guys anyway, but I don't think the evidence suggests that was obvious prior to their "over ripening".  Aside from Mantha, none of the guys I mentioned were 1st round picks.  None of Tatar, Hudler, AA or Bertuzzi were dominating the AHL.  Datsyuk was an overager. Zetterberg wasn't even the top prospect we were scouting when we first found him. Even Mantha struggled as an AHLer (leading to the "very very disappointed" comment by Devellano).  His rookie AHL season was worse than Svechnikov's.  So it's not clear cut that ANY of them were "ready" for the NHL within a year of being drafted, much less ready to be top six forwards or top four defensemen.

I don't think spending a long time in the minors is beneficial for any good young players.  In the example of Veleno, I want him playing in the NHL as quickly as possible.  There's only so much he can learn playing in a league full of players who will never make the big team.  He can learn more with less minutes at the NHL level than playing more minutes against worse players.  Give him a little time in the minors but not much.  Sometimes you have to throw these players to the wolves, but that's a harsh saying.  It's basically just giving them a chance to prove they can hack it at the top level.  

Oh and guys like Mantha and Tatar spent too long in the minors.  The Red Wings weren't exactly stacked during those players' final few seasons in GR.  Also, dominating the AHL doesn't mean you'll be a great player.  Look at the list of players who lead the AHL in scoring every season.  Not exactly future stars.  Wade Megan led the league in scoring a few seasons ago.

Edited June 5, 2019 by GMRwings1983

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

That's probably true.  It's good if the main team is so stacked that they don't have room to call up players.  However, that basically means NHL ready players are being held back and are wasting their time in the minors.  Not sure if that's a good thing in the long run for those players.  

Too much talent > Not enough talent