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Jonas Mahonas

2020 Tank

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6 minutes ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

I like something like this, simple. I'm not sure what the 'Gold Plan' kr was referring to is though, maybe it is better. 

Ya who knows what would be better but I don’t think a team that’s is just god awful for whatever reason should lose the better odds over a team that gets more wins in a way less amount  of games played 

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29 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Ya I don’t buy into that , what happens if a team gets eliminated 2 months prior and goes 4-22 (don’t know the exact number of games that might be played in 2 months just using some bs number ) and a team gets eliminated 10 days prior and goes 5-0 to finish ... just doesn’t sound right , I know your trying to automatically reward the worst team but when a team is god awful I don’t think they should be punished for not winning , that’s the sole reason they’re worst 

You're taking two completely unrealistic extremes.

No team would go 4-22 down the stretch, with the number one pick on the line... and if they did, in my opinion they don't deserve the number one pick... and if a team finishes off the season going 5-0, chances are, they're in the playoffs, out of the lottery running anyway.

In reality, with parity today, you're looking at very little difference in overall standings. The biggest difference is from a fan perspective. You're cheering for wins from game 1 to game 82, instead of cheering for losses, like so many fans do at the end of the season...

17 minutes ago, Buppy said:

If you consider encouraging potential bubble teams to cram a full season's worth of tanking into the first 65-70 or so games, and also encouraging the actual bad teams to combat that strategy by tanking even harder, while also making a system that is easier to manipulate due to the lower level of randomness and that also runs contrary to the general purpose of the draft itself "better", then, yes.

Yes, because pro athletes are going to throw games at the beginning of a season, and for 80-90% of the season because they're perceived to be a "bubble team"...

27 minutes ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

I like something like this, simple. I'm not sure what the 'Gold Plan' kr was referring to is though, maybe it is better. 

I highly recommend checking it out. Just Google "NHL Gold Plan"...

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16 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You're taking two completely unrealistic extremes.

No team would go 4-22 down the stretch, with the number one pick on the line... and if they did, in my opinion they don't deserve the number one pick... and if a team finishes off the season going 5-0, chances are, they're in the playoffs, out of the lottery running anyway.

In reality, with parity today, you're looking at very little difference in overall standings. The biggest difference is from a fan perspective. You're cheering for wins from game 1 to game 82, instead of cheering for losses, like so many fans do at the end of the season...

I’m giving an example man lol ... and how do you know they wouldn’t go that way with the #1 pick on the line?maybe they’re just a god awful hockey team , we always say how the players themselves don’t try to lose hockey games 

maybe they don’t deserve #1 but that’s why we have a lottery pick , I don’t think it’s fair to have a team who made the season prior go on a bad stretch and miss the playoffs and somehow end up with a top pick due to a late run

well like some of been discussed here through out the year , it’s a lottery draft so doesn’t matter where you end up , it’s not a given you get 1st but if you can block out say 8+ or even 7+ then the worst 6-7 teams all have a shot and we don’t see teams like Chicago jumping and stealing a spot from a struggling franchise , odds would only slightly go up so maybe 1st would go from 18-23% or something like that , anyways I don’t think we will ever find a perfect draft 

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

In reality, with parity today, you're looking at very little difference in overall standings. The biggest difference is from a fan perspective. You're cheering for wins from game 1 to game 82, instead of cheering for losses, like so many fans do at the end of the season...

Yes, because pro athletes are going to throw games at the beginning of a season, and for 80-90% of the season because they're perceived to be a "bubble team"...

I highly recommend checking it out. Just Google "NHL Gold Plan"...

If one of the leading selling points of a new system is how little difference it will make, maybe you should reconsider your position on how much we "need" to change anything.

No, fans will not "cheer for wins from game 1 to game 82". They will once their team has been eliminated, but prior to that your system makes losing early even more important since your best chance at a higher pick comes from being eliminated as early as possible. Keep in mind that we're discussing this in a thread about tanking next year; do you really think these fans, and the fans who cried about the late season wins last year, are going to be happy winning games early? No. We'd spend the first 70 games of the year listening to people ***** about every single point we earned keeping us mathematically alive too long, and the last 12 listening to the same people ***** about any points we lose costing us draft position.

Yes, to the extent that I think teams "tank" in the current system, I believe they would under the Gold Plan, and very likely even more so, including teams who think they might be pretty good, but not good enough to do anything in the playoffs, opting to "try" to get eliminated as early as possible to give themselves an inside line on a high pick. I don't believe the players would (or do) deliberately try to lose, but I do think it can impact roster and lineup decisions, as well as player motivation.

I think the Gold Plan is trying to accomplish two things: turn top picks into a merit reward, and discourage deliberate tanking. But proper thought hasn't been put into either. The merit aspect is directly contrary to the purpose of the draft, and since at some level it seems the designer understood that, it tries to reward both bad teams and winning at the same time, so all else being equal it makes, in your own words, "very little difference". Then it's trying to punish tanking by removing randomness from the system, since they apparently don't understand that doing that makes the system easier to manipulate.

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8 hours ago, Buppy said:

If one of the leading selling points of a new system is how little difference it will make, maybe you should reconsider your position on how much we "need" to change anything.

No, fans will not "cheer for wins from game 1 to game 82". They will once their team has been eliminated, but prior to that your system makes losing early even more important since your best chance at a higher pick comes from being eliminated as early as possible. Keep in mind that we're discussing this in a thread about tanking next year; do you really think these fans, and the fans who cried about the late season wins last year, are going to be happy winning games early? No. We'd spend the first 70 games of the year listening to people ***** about every single point we earned keeping us mathematically alive too long, and the last 12 listening to the same people ***** about any points we lose costing us draft position.

Yes, to the extent that I think teams "tank" in the current system, I believe they would under the Gold Plan, and very likely even more so, including teams who think they might be pretty good, but not good enough to do anything in the playoffs, opting to "try" to get eliminated as early as possible to give themselves an inside line on a high pick. I don't believe the players would (or do) deliberately try to lose, but I do think it can impact roster and lineup decisions, as well as player motivation.

I think the Gold Plan is trying to accomplish two things: turn top picks into a merit reward, and discourage deliberate tanking. But proper thought hasn't been put into either. The merit aspect is directly contrary to the purpose of the draft, and since at some level it seems the designer understood that, it tries to reward both bad teams and winning at the same time, so all else being equal it makes, in your own words, "very little difference". Then it's trying to punish tanking by removing randomness from the system, since they apparently don't understand that doing that makes the system easier to manipulate.

I don't think there would be a huge difference, but the biggest difference would be that there wouldn't likely be any more of the 17th-23rd place teams, jumping into the top 3.

There's no perfect system, and you're right in that there's no pleasing some fans. The same fans that b!tched and complained at the end of last season because we were winning, would do the same with the Gold Plan. No doubt.

The thing I disagree with you on, is that no player, general manager or owner are going to want to lose games at any point in the season if they're still in the race. There's not a person inside that dressing room that doesn't believe they can go on a run and make the playoffs, until they're mathematically eliminated.

St. Louis could have all hung their heads when they were in last place in January, but they didn't, and they ended up going on an historic run, which led to winning the Stanley Cup.

The worst I can see the Gold Plan having in the way of "tanking", is a team with 15 games left, and they're one loss away from being mathematically eliminated, and management sitting a couple star players to get that loss. That's much better in my opinion than the current system.

10 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

I’m giving an example man lol ... and how do you know they wouldn’t go that way with the #1 pick on the line?maybe they’re just a god awful hockey team , we always say how the players themselves don’t try to lose hockey games 

maybe they don’t deserve #1 but that’s why we have a lottery pick , I don’t think it’s fair to have a team who made the season prior go on a bad stretch and miss the playoffs and somehow end up with a top pick due to a late run

well like some of been discussed here through out the year , it’s a lottery draft so doesn’t matter where you end up , it’s not a given you get 1st but if you can block out say 8+ or even 7+ then the worst 6-7 teams all have a shot and we don’t see teams like Chicago jumping and stealing a spot from a struggling franchise , odds would only slightly go up so maybe 1st would go from 18-23% or something like that , anyways I don’t think we will ever find a perfect draft 

You think it's more "fair" to have a team jump from 12th best odds to number 3 (this year), 11th best odds to number 2 (last year), or 12th best odds to number 2 (the year before)? I don't think there would ever be that much of a jump into the top 3-5 using the Gold Plan.

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32 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

 

You think it's more "fair" to have a team jump from 12th best odds to number 3 (this year), 11th best odds to number 2 (last year), or 12th best odds to number 2 (the year before)? I don't think there would ever be that much of a jump into the top 3-5 using the Gold Plan.

I meant didn’t think it’s a fair a team can make the playoffs the prior season be competitive maybe even win the cup and for whatever reason they miss the playoffs with 10 games left finish 8-2 and get like the 4th-5th best odds to win thanks to the “gold plan” and win a top pick 

 

if they eliminated teams 7-8 beyond then Chicago and flyers wouldn’t have won the lottery pick , just keep the odds about the same as is now minus a few % slots and keep the bottom 6-7 teams in the mix and that’s it , at worst Detroit would have probably finished 5th and had a shot at byram , seems more fair to me ... I know it’s a plan so we don’t route for our teams to win but I don’t think it works, If a team is just bad they shouldn’t be punished for being s*** ... it’s all fine and dandy cause the wings ended on a nice winning streak to finish the season but if we had continued to lose we’d probably have been 9-14th on your system and we’d be screaming our heads off .... something to think about 

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40 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

I meant didn’t think it’s a fair a team can make the playoffs the prior season be competitive maybe even win the cup and for whatever reason they miss the playoffs with 10 games left finish 8-2 and get like the 4th-5th best odds to win thanks to the “gold plan” and win a top pick 

The exact same thing can happen in the current system... It literally just happened with Chicago...

41 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

 if they eliminated teams 7-8 beyond then Chicago and flyers wouldn’t have won the lottery pick , just keep the odds about the same as is now minus a few % slots and keep the bottom 6-7 teams in the mix and that’s it , at worst Detroit would have probably finished 5th and had a shot at byram , seems more fair to me ... I know it’s a plan so we don’t route for our teams to win but I don’t think it works, If a team is just bad they shouldn’t be punished for being s*** ... it’s all fine and dandy cause the wings ended on a nice winning streak to finish the season but if we had continued to lose we’d probably have been 9-14th on your system and we’d be screaming our heads off .... something to think about 

Great. So now instead of teams tanking at the end of the season for the bottom 2-3 spots, teams will be tanking to get into the bottom 6-7 spots...

There's no perfect system, but in my opinion, the Gold Plan is the closest I've seen.

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57 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't think there would be a huge difference, but the biggest difference would be that there wouldn't likely be any more of the 17th-23rd place teams, jumping into the top 3.

The thing I disagree with you on, is that no player, general manager or owner are going to want to lose games at any point in the season if they're still in the race. There's not a person inside that dressing room that doesn't believe they can go on a run and make the playoffs, until they're mathematically eliminated.

St. Louis could have all hung their heads when they were in last place in January, but they didn't, and they ended up going on an historic run, which led to winning the Stanley Cup.

The worst I can see the Gold Plan having in the way of "tanking", is a team with 15 games left, and they're one loss away from being mathematically eliminated, and management sitting a couple star players to get that loss. That's much better in my opinion than the current system.

Of course no one wants to lose, yet every trade deadline there are sellers even though almost no one is mathematically eliminated at that point. Every off-season there are teams that trade assets for picks/prospects or forego trying to improve their current roster... Sacrificing the present for the sake of the future. 

Yes, St.Louis made a historic comeback. I wonder if that would have happened in a system where they could have all but guaranteed themselves the first overall pick.

You can't have it both ways. You can't use "teams won't do anything to try to tank" as an argument for why we need a new system to prevent teams for tanking. You can't say "we need a system to reward teams for winning" while arguing that it's some big problem that some teams that won too much jumped up in the draft.

If you don't like teams jumping that much, then limit the lottery to fewer teams or go back to limiting how many spots you can move up. Don't invent some convoluted scheme that's trying to be two contradictory things at once.

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I think I like the idea of the "gold plan" but it needs some tweaking. Maybe mixing that with teams only being able to move so far.

I think I'd like to see the teams get split in half, standings wise, so that the gold plan works the same but only allows the 8 worst teams a chance at #1 and the 8 (7 for now) closest teams to the playoffs can only move up to 9th pick at best. 

Just my two cents on a lotto change that will likely never happen :P 

 

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

The exact same thing can happen in the current system... It literally just happened with Chicago...

Great. So now instead of teams tanking at the end of the season for the bottom 2-3 spots, teams will be tanking to get into the bottom 6-7 spots...

There's no perfect system, but in my opinion, the Gold Plan is the closest I've seen.

I know it can happen with the current system but if the team that missed the playoffs the prior season is just awful and finishes in the bottom 6-7 it is what it is , just weren’t a good enough team for whatever reason , I’m well aware some tank but some are just so bad they can’t win so I don’t think it’s fair they get punished for not winning all season

anyways I guess we’ll have to stick with our Schtick and agree to disagree 

4 minutes ago, amato said:

I think I like the idea of the "gold plan" but it needs some tweaking. Maybe mixing that with teams only being able to move so far.

I think I'd like to see the teams get split in half, standings wise, so that the gold plan works the same but only allows the 8 worst teams a chance at #1 and the 8 (7 for now) closest teams to the playoffs can only move up to 9th pick at best. 

Just my two cents on a lotto change that will likely never happen :P 

 

That Sounds good but what if that team at 6 worst wins too many games at the end and becomes 10th worst ? Lol  they’d need a deadline and say March 24th whoever’s bottom 7 is in contention for the lottery pick and can start winning games .... don’t think that could work though, but it was a good idea 

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I have a couple problems with the Gold system.  One, it doesn't help teams that are genuinely awful, which is kinda the whole point of the draft.  Two, it makes an already boring trade deadline even more so.  Teams that aren't making the playoffs are gonna want to hold on to their players for a better chance at improving their lottery odds.

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7 minutes ago, TLGTrico said:

I have a couple problems with the Gold system.  One, it doesn't help teams that are genuinely awful, which is kinda the whole point of the draft.  Two, it makes an already boring trade deadline even more so.  Teams that aren't making the playoffs are gonna want to hold on to their players for a better chance at improving their lottery odds.

I share the same thoughts.

Few others:

- I agree with Brian Burke (yuk!). I think they the lottery should have a cut off point. Somewhere between 6 and 10. No team finishing 17 - 21 should have any shot at the lottery

- If the current system is not amended I'd rather go back to the old "you draft where you finish" format. I have way more tolerance for watching an already bad team deliberately lose than I do watching Chicago, Carolina, or Philly jumping 12 spots into the top 3. 

- MUST HAVE RADIUS CLAUSE: If you have won a cup within the last 5 years, no moving into the top three. If you have drafted top 3 within the last 3 years, no top three for you this year UNLESS you finished bottom 5 in the standing. 

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Maybe the draft order can be determined by the order in which teams are mathematically eliminated.  Sure it still encourages tanking, but at least fans have no reason to cheer for losses after their team is already eliminated.

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45 minutes ago, TLGTrico said:

I have a couple problems with the Gold system.  One, it doesn't help teams that are genuinely awful, which is kinda the whole point of the draft.  Two, it makes an already boring trade deadline even more so.  Teams that aren't making the playoffs are gonna want to hold on to their players for a better chance at improving their lottery odds.

How does it not help teams that are genuinely awful? The awful teams would have 15ish games to accumulate points, while the good teams only have 3-5ish games to accumulate points. Odds are the awful team would gain more points in those 15 games than the good team would in the 5 games. Even if the awful team went 4-10-1, and the good team went 4-1-0, they would finish ahead in the draft...

34 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I share the same thoughts.

Few others:

- I agree with Brian Burke (yuk!). I think they the lottery should have a cut off point. Somewhere between 6 and 10. No team finishing 17 - 21 should have any shot at the lottery

- If the current system is not amended I'd rather go back to the old "you draft where you finish" format. I have way more tolerance for watching an already bad team deliberately lose than I do watching Chicago, Carolina, or Philly jumping 12 spots into the top 3. 

- MUST HAVE RADIUS CLAUSE: If you have won a cup within the last 5 years, no moving into the top three. If you have drafted top 3 within the last 3 years, no top three for you this year UNLESS you finished bottom 5 in the standing. 

I also agree with much of what Burke was saying...

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1 hour ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

 

That Sounds good but what if that team at 6 worst wins too many games at the end and becomes 10th worst ? Lol  they’d need a deadline and say March 24th whoever’s bottom 7 is in contention for the lottery pick and can start winning games .... don’t think that could work though, but it was a good idea 

 

Yeah good point, there would have to be a deadline for sure. I don't really think it would work better than what we have now necessarily, but I do think it would make the end of the season more exciting for more of the league. And that's what I like most about the gold system idea. 

A good middle ground could be something like the first 8 teams start accumulating points when they're mathematically eliminated, and they're the only teams that qualify for this gold system. When the 8th worst team is mathematically eliminated from playoffs, the first 8 picks are locked in and only order is to be determined. 9-16 just pick where they finish. 

Edited by amato

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On 6/22/2019 at 6:15 PM, LeftWinger said:

the draft order should be determined by your GM's first letter of their last name, in reverse order.

Or the GM's first 2 letters of their last name.  2nd letter first then first letter. I could also live with the first letter scenario also. 

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You guys do realize there's no gold backing your money?? The globalist bankers just make it up. We need a gold plan.

On 6/21/2019 at 6:32 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

The NHL lottery is a joke.  Why arent the selections made public?

"Shut it down! The fans know"

bettman_phone.jpg

 

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Looking at the roster so far, it's absolutely a tankable year. And no one could blame them for it. I hope the top 4 young forwards continue to develop, Cholowski as well. Other than that, tank from puck drop opening night and never reconsider. We need to get that guaranteed top 4.

On 6/21/2019 at 1:09 PM, krsmith17 said:

How does it not help teams that are genuinely awful? The awful teams would have 15ish games to accumulate points, while the good teams only have 3-5ish games to accumulate points. Odds are the awful team would gain more points in those 15 games than the good team would in the 5 games. Even if the awful team went 4-10-1, and the good team went 4-1-0, they would finish ahead in the draft...

I also agree with much of what Burke was saying...

Burke was bang on. Great ideas.

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On 6/20/2019 at 9:48 PM, GMRwings1983 said:

Oh brother.

Two years ago, everyone wanted us to tank for a pimpled punk from Sweden.  

Last year, everyone wanted to tank for a midget playing in some teenage U.S. league.  

Next year, everyone wants us to tank for some Frenchie.  

 

How about we actually try to make the playoffs like Carolina or the Islanders did out of nowhere?

To be fair, Carolina has one of the best blue lines in the league and Barry Trotz is Defense Jesus (apparently).

2017-18 Vegas is probably closer to what we should be shooting for. Though, even then, we'd probably need a 40-goal season from Larkin (William Karlsson) and a Vezina-caliber season from Howard (Marc-Andre Fleury) and similarly unexpected overachievement from a bunch of other players, all fueled by lightning-in-a-bottle underdog energy.

Doable? Sure, anythng's possible. Likely? I can't say yes with a straight face; this roster has "lost season" written all over it.

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