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Dabura

2020 Offseason Rebuild Thread

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Why is this still a thing? Milan Lucic was just traded and we still have people talking about "untradeable contacts"? There. is. no. such. thing. as. an. untradeable. contract...

I agreed with most of what he said, but that part is indeed untrue. Helm could be dealt if we retained a mil, Nielsen could garner some interest, Abby is the only one that would have to have incentives, but like Lucic if the deal was right we could move him. 

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22 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I dont get why these moves arent happening

My guess.....either the right deal hasn’t come along, or since we are not in win now mode, yzerman doesn’t feel the need right now.

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3 hours ago, 13dangledangle said:

I think it feels worse because Holland and Co. were more concerned about keeping the playoff streak alive then starting the inevitable rebuild so it feels like we've been in it for a while.  He also gave out some horrible untradeable contracts that are part of the problem right now too.  Once Holland got his head into the rebuild game the last two seasons I think he did a great job, Yzerman will carry on very much the same way.  I was definitely one of the Yzerman fan boys hoping he'd some day come home, I have faith he'll get it done...I want to see that crazy story book ending where Yzerman brings the cup back to Detroit 

In case you missed it the streak ended 3 years ago. Even if you want to say that's when the rebuild started (which means ignoring that the final years of the streak produced AA, Larkin, Mantha, Bert, Cholowski, and Hronek), we should still be at the point where we're hoping to turn the corner. 

Those horrible contracts are not hurting us, and it could be argued that they never have. We have ~$15M in cap space right now, even after giving $6M to Flip and Nemeth. We could have afforded Trouba and Panarin. We could have afforded Tavares last year. Could have afforded Stamkos had he hit UFA a few years back. Even if those contracts really were untradeable, it wouldn't matter.

Now, I'm not criticizing Yzerman for not signing Panarin. Not really criticizing him at all for that matter. More just saying that changing horses mid-stream is generally a bad thing. It would be more palatable if I thought the rebuild was going poorly, but it wasn't. Would have been better if it had happened three years ago even. It wasn't long ago that Devellano said we wanted to do something to accelerate the rebuild. It seems what he really meant was just hiring Yzerman to make the fans shut up. Seems we set the rebuild back, or paused it at least, for the sake of fan appeasement, while also replacing our GM with someone who's probably not as good.

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20 minutes ago, Buppy said:

In case you missed it the streak ended 3 years ago. Even if you want to say that's when the rebuild started (which means ignoring that the final years of the streak produced AA, Larkin, Mantha, Bert, Cholowski, and Hronek), we should still be at the point where we're hoping to turn the corner. 

Those horrible contracts are not hurting us, and it could be argued that they never have. We have ~$15M in cap space right now, even after giving $6M to Flip and Nemeth. We could have afforded Trouba and Panarin. We could have afforded Tavares last year. Could have afforded Stamkos had he hit UFA a few years back. Even if those contracts really were untradeable, it wouldn't matter.

Now, I'm not criticizing Yzerman for not signing Panarin. Not really criticizing him at all for that matter. More just saying that changing horses mid-stream is generally a bad thing. It would be more palatable if I thought the rebuild was going poorly, but it wasn't. Would have been better if it had happened three years ago even. It wasn't long ago that Devellano said we wanted to do something to accelerate the rebuild. It seems what he really meant was just hiring Yzerman to make the fans shut up. Seems we set the rebuild back, or paused it at least, for the sake of fan appeasement, while also replacing our GM with someone who's probably not as good.

Yzerman came in, ran a draft, singed a couple vets. How exactly has the rebuild been set back? Or paused it even? Enlighten us. I'm going to go make some popcorn. 

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49 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Yzerman came in, ran a draft, singed a couple vets. How exactly has the rebuild been set back? Or paused it even? Enlighten us. I'm going to go make some popcorn. 

Because Holland would have drafted / signed different players that may or may not be better or worse than the one's that Yzerman drafted / signed... obviously...

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16 hours ago, Buppy said:

That's mostly what I'm afraid of, to be honest. That he plans to take a couple years to get up to speed, and then start to work on his vision for what he wants to build. That we've gone from being 3+ years into a rebuild to multiple years away from starting one. 

#Pray4Lafreniere

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2 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Yzerman came in, ran a draft, singed a couple vets. How exactly has the rebuild been set back? Or paused it even? Enlighten us. I'm going to go make some popcorn. 

Signing stopgap vets for two years, while stating that he needs to take some time to figure out what we have. Presumably once he figures it out, he's not going to have the same philosophy and opinions as Holland. The players and prospects we have now may very well not for that philosophy. 

Again, I'm not criticizing Yzerman so much as the timing of the switch. 

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1 hour ago, Buppy said:

Signing stopgap vets for two years, while stating that he needs to take some time to figure out what we have. Presumably once he figures it out, he's not going to have the same philosophy and opinions as Holland. The players and prospects we have now may very well not for that philosophy. 

Again, I'm not criticizing Yzerman so much as the timing of the switch. 

Alright. I see where you're coming from. I can't see the philosophies being that different. Yzerman sounds like he's going to be less tolerant of players not bringing the jam. And I don't think this continuity focused transition will last long. 

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10 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Alright. I see where you're coming from. I can't see the philosophies being that different. Yzerman sounds like he's going to be less tolerant of players not bringing the jam. And I don't think this continuity focused transition will last long. 

I agree with above you have a GM that has been there done that so IMHO his tolerance of lazy unmotivated play is limited. I think he won't tolerate someone not willing to take a little less to help the team move forward be it in ice time or $$. 

He knows what it is to suffer and not win and make the playoffs during the Dead Wings to winning 3 cups in 6 years.  I highly doubt he isn't taking a long look at things right now and we will see movement during camp.  I see us potentially having a solid season and the next year pushing towards the playoffs. 

Granted I have my Wing colored Yzerman fan glasses on cause the future is bright. 

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2 hours ago, Buppy said:

Signing stopgap vets for two years, while stating that he needs to take some time to figure out what we have. Presumably once he figures it out, he's not going to have the same philosophy and opinions as Holland. The players and prospects we have now may very well not for that philosophy.

I mean, it's possible. But, personally, I don't have "Two years from now he's going to blow up the team and start a new rebuild" very high on my list of concerns. I would think it's much more likely that he wants to get a couple of drafts under his belt and then make adjustments here and there over the next however many years. Maybe he signs a couple of marquee UFAs. Maybe he trades Mantha and Cholowski. He can make the team his team without it being a teardown.

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42 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I mean, it's possible. But, personally, I don't have "Two years from now he's going to blow up the team and start a new rebuild" very high on my list of concerns. I would think it's much more likely that he wants to get a couple of drafts under his belt and then make adjustments here and there over the next however many years. Maybe he signs a couple of marquee UFAs. Maybe he trades Mantha and Cholowski. He can make the team his team without it being a teardown.

To clarify, I don't mean I think he's going to blow up the team. I just mean I think now it's going to take longer before we start making moves to improve the current team rather than the future. That the kids we have now coming in will mean we'll get better, but only enough to make our draft position worse. That "figuring things out" will mean not doing anything to augment what we have, and that will mean wasting time with our older crop of kids, and trading Mantha and Cholowski could be a thing. That instead of seeing a team built around Larkin, Mantha, AA, etc., we're going to see a team built around Seider, and whoever we draft next year, and the year after.

Maybe none of that will prove true. Maybe he'll make a bunch of moves as soon as training camp. Maybe some kids will blow up and he won't even have to. Even if I am right I'm not saying it's the end of the world. But I had concerns about Yzerman prior to his hiring, and I think the timing is just about as bad as it could get, and nothing about his offseason so far has done anything to alleviate those concerns. All the good PR just makes it worse. Bad enough that we even have a 2020 offseason thread started in the 2019 offseason, but some people seem genuinely enthusiastic about yet another throw-away year. 

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8 hours ago, Buppy said:

That instead of seeing a team built around Larkin, Mantha, AA, etc., we're going to see a team built around Seider, and whoever we draft next year, and the year after.

I hear ya. I guess I just feel like it's kinda weird to go straight to this concern. I doubt the Ilitches have the patience for a 400-year rebuild plan and I doubt Yzerman himself has much interest in stretching this suck fest out much longer than it needs to be stretched out.

I think Yzerman looks at what we have and his one major complaint is that there's a crippling lack of elite talent in the system. "I'm gonna get my kind of players in here and then we'll see what we have and go from there" is probably a thing, to some extent, but there's a middle ground here: Yzerman can pick and choose from what he inherited from Holland while also putting his own stamp on things. Basically, what Jeff Gorton's done with the Rangers: move out some older players (Mantha, Bertuzzi and Athanasiou are already in their mid-20s), get lucky in the draft lotto one year, make a big trade that summer, make a big splash in free agency that summer.

My biggest fear, as a Wings fan, is that we're not going to get a Kakko or a Hughes or even a(nother) Zibanejad/Larkin within the next two drafts, because 1) I'm honestly not sure if Yzerman is kinda great at drafting or kinda bad at it, and 2) drafting is basically random anyway. If that's what happens, I do think things could get dicey. But I'd expect it to be a "We're gonna brute-force our way back to relevance with desperation moves" kind of dicey as opposed to a "OK, now begins the ACTUAL rebuild, which will take another 3-5 years because now we're building around Seider" kind of dicey.

9 hours ago, Buppy said:

Maybe none of that will prove true. Maybe he'll make a bunch of moves as soon as training camp. Maybe some kids will blow up and he won't even have to. Even if I am right I'm not saying it's the end of the world. But I had concerns about Yzerman prior to his hiring, and I think the timing is just about as bad as it could get, and nothing about his offseason so far has done anything to alleviate those concerns. All the good PR just makes it worse. Bad enough that we even have a 2020 offseason thread started in the 2019 offseason, but some people seem genuinely enthusiastic about yet another throw-away year. 

I'm about as unexcited as I've ever been, but I figure I'd feel the same way with Holland still at the helm. The hard truth is that we need a Lafreniere in the worst way. GIven that, I'm willing to swallow the suck pill for at least another season. It's the circle of life in today's NHL and it currently has us bent over a table.

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I can´t really see why a lot of people here are so pessimistic. We already have a few good pieces in the lineup and there´s more pieces waiting in the pipeline. As I said before, we had a stretch of 15-20 games where we were one of the best teams in the league, when we were healthy. There were a lot of players taking steps in the right direction, Larkin,Mantha,Bert and AA + the last stint from Hronek were very promising, Cholo and Zadina got their first taste of NHL hockey to see what it takes.

If we are able to strengthen our 2nd line to start the season and stay relativly healthy, we have a chance to be close to the playoffs this year.  With Cholo and Seider hopefully being the top pair in GR and continued growth of our prospects, 2020 looks good to me.

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20 hours ago, Buppy said:

In case you missed it the streak ended 3 years ago. Even if you want to say that's when the rebuild started (which means ignoring that the final years of the streak produced AA, Larkin, Mantha, Bert, Cholowski, and Hronek), we should still be at the point where we're hoping to turn the corner. 

Those horrible contracts are not hurting us, and it could be argued that they never have. We have ~$15M in cap space right now, even after giving $6M to Flip and Nemeth. We could have afforded Trouba and Panarin. We could have afforded Tavares last year. Could have afforded Stamkos had he hit UFA a few years back. Even if those contracts really were untradeable, it wouldn't matter.

Now, I'm not criticizing Yzerman for not signing Panarin. Not really criticizing him at all for that matter. More just saying that changing horses mid-stream is generally a bad thing. It would be more palatable if I thought the rebuild was going poorly, but it wasn't. Would have been better if it had happened three years ago even. It wasn't long ago that Devellano said we wanted to do something to accelerate the rebuild. It seems what he really meant was just hiring Yzerman to make the fans shut up. Seems we set the rebuild back, or paused it at least, for the sake of fan appeasement, while also replacing our GM with someone who's probably not as good.

You're not wrong.

And it would have been interesting to see what Holland would have done with this off-season too. Does he make these meaningless stop gap moves that Yzerman did, or does he do a more Jeff Gorton approach and play with the big names to accelerate this *****? I get the feeling Holland would have spent more money this offseason for better or worse.

I also don't necessarily agree with the notion that Yzerman needs, or is taking, a year to evaluate this team. He's been an NHL GM working in the same division as us, and by all accounts was scouting for us this entire past year. He also officially worked side by side with Holland until Ken's departure. He knows what we have and don't have. He's not evaluating this team. He's tanking.

And yeah changing GM's because fans are unsatisfied seems dumb, but we do pay the bills so to speak. Gotta keep customers happy. The warm glow of Yzerman should keep a lot of fans onboard during the next 3 years of sucking.

Fans: "Caertainly this is rock bottom for our franchise"
Yzerman:

b3y7qiz2ga311.png

17 hours ago, Dabura said:

 

This really connects with my inner 1993 university student studying sociology. Tribal tattoos will be cool forever. Weed cures cancer. 

1 hour ago, ely s said:

I can´t really see why a lot of people here are so pessimistic. We already have a few good pieces in the lineup and there´s more pieces waiting in the pipeline. As I said before, we had a stretch of 15-20 games where we were one of the best teams in the league, when we were healthy.

We had a stretch of 15-20 games where we had one of the best lines in the league.

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2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

...

We had a stretch of 15-20 games where we had one of the best lines in the league.

either way, it just shows we are capable of being a good team, 15-20 games is no one hit wonder. Neither of Mantha, Larkin,Bert or AA had the chance to grow behind Z and Dats properly, they had to figure out a lot by themselves with the pressure of being relied on to right the ship.

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1 minute ago, ely s said:

either way, it just shows we are capable of being a good team, 15-20 games is no one hit wonder.

>My heart says, "HELL YEAH, BROTHER!"
>My head says, "Pump the brakes. 20 games means nothing, whether we're talking about a line or an entire team."

I think back to 2013-14. Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco was an awesome line for a few games. Nyquist put up 48 points in 57 games. Did any of that carry over into subsequent seasons? Not really.

Small sample sizes have made and broken careers. Beware!

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18 minutes ago, Dabura said:

>My heart says, "HELL YEAH, BROTHER!"
>My head says, "Pump the brakes. 20 games means nothing, whether we're talking about a line or an entire team."

I think back to 2013-14. Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco was an awesome line for a few games. Nyquist put up 48 points in 57 games. Did any of that carry over into subsequent seasons? Not really.

Small sample sizes have made and broken careers. Beware!

I totally agree with you to be aware of that, but it´s a light at the end of the tunnel.

Last season we started real bad and never got out of that hole. I don´t have the numbers, but would guess that we were not that far off of a playoff position if you take the first 20 games away and in Larkin,AA,Mantha and Bert you have players which have taken significant steps and any of the four looks better to me than any of the aforementioned 3. Nyquist and Tatar just reached their potential quite early but are still good players.

As this is the 2020 thread and with 28 unsigned prospects (10 of them 2nd and 3rd round picks), at least 10 promising prospects signed but currently not on the roster, 9 picks in 2020 (5 in the first three rounds), the eventually coming extra picks at the deadline and with continued growth I am really optimistic for 20/21.

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2 hours ago, ely s said:

... I don´t have the numbers, but would guess that we were not that far off of a playoff position if you take the first 20 games away ...

Got me interested, so...

Points earned over the course of the season:

Untitled.jpg.6396a3d4d4a15bf0f2ce06573d1ebe22.jpg

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thank you. now I remember, after our 1-7-2 start we had a 11-6-2 stretch which made me think that 18/19 wouldn´t be as bad as feared until we lost 6-2 in Washington and never got on track again , but at least a strong finish to the season

 

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22 hours ago, ely s said:

I totally agree with you to be aware of that, but it´s a light at the end of the tunnel.

Last season we started real bad and never got out of that hole. I don´t have the numbers, but would guess that we were not that far off of a playoff position if you take the first 20 games away and in Larkin,AA,Mantha and Bert you have players which have taken significant steps and any of the four looks better to me than any of the aforementioned 3. Nyquist and Tatar just reached their potential quite early but are still good players.

As this is the 2020 thread and with 28 unsigned prospects (10 of them 2nd and 3rd round picks), at least 10 promising prospects signed but currently not on the roster, 9 picks in 2020 (5 in the first three rounds), the eventually coming extra picks at the deadline and with continued growth I am really optimistic for 20/21.

I_Want_to_Believe_UFO_poster.jpg

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