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Jonas Mahonas

Zadina Says It

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12 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Sure, I'll get right on that. Hold your breath.  You asked why I thought it was a disaster, I told you.  Five out of ten prospects already out of your system after only two years is pretty bad. If the question now becomes "who would you have taken in the 5th round instead of X?" then I'd say your threshold for persuasion is absurdly high. 

So basically it was a disaster according to you but no one in the 1st 2nd 3rd etc.. rounds available to us has fared any better. But we failed somehow even though it was an awful draft class all around. Sure maybe 1 or 2 gems may emerge from that draft but it didnt matter who we took. No one has fared better in that draft. 

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18 minutes ago, Euro_Twins said:

So basically it was a disaster according to you but no one in the 1st 2nd 3rd etc.. rounds available to us has fared any better. But we failed somehow even though it was an awful draft class all around. Sure maybe 1 or 2 gems may emerge from that draft but it didnt matter who we took. No one has fared better in that draft. 

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.  Far as I know, no other team had a 50% attrition rate within two years of that draft.  There are a number of players who have performed as well or better than our first (Necas, Brannstrom, Thomas, Frost) and 2nd (Heponiemi, Texier, Comtois) picks, and from the 3rd round on we basically have a total wash out.

For comparison's sake, from the 2016 draft we still have Cholowski, Smith, Hronek, and Larsson in our system and we only picked seven times.  Of those guys, Hronek just put up .50 ppg in the NHL as a rookie, Cholowski had a solid start in the NHL and finished strongly in the AHL, Larsson is one of the top goalie prospects in the world, and Smith is a potential depth player.  So yeah, much better success in much fewer selections.

If you're adamant that 2017 is somehow good despite all that then I'm guessing there's probably no convincing you. And oh by the way, who was trying to convince you anyway?  You asked me why I thought it was bad and when I told you why you essentially replied "well every team had a bad draft that year".  Which doesn't invalidate anything I said...at all. 

Edited by kipwinger

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The "I told you SO's" regarding Zadina are gonna be so so sweet... but by then the revisonary history experts at LGW will likely have themselves convinced they were the ones pumping the breaks on Zadina.

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5 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.  Far as I know, no other team had a 50% attrition rate within two years of that draft.  There are a number of players who have performed as well or better than our first (Necas, Brannstrom, Thomas, Frost) and 2nd (Heponiemi, Texier, Comtois) picks, and from the 3rd round on we basically have a total wash out.

For comparison's sake, from the 2016 draft we still have Cholowski, Smith, Hronek, and Larsson in our system and we only picked seven times.  Of those guys, Hronek just put up .50 ppg in the NHL as a rookie, Cholowski had a solid start in the NHL and finished strongly in the AHL, Larsson is one of the top goalie prospects in the world, and Smith is a potential depth player.  So yeah, much better success in much fewer selections.

If you're adamant that 2017 is somehow good despite all that then I'm guessing there's probably no convincing you. And oh by the way, who was trying to convince you anyway?  You asked me why I thought it was bad and when I told you why you essentially replied "well every team had a bad draft that year".  Which doesn't invalidate anything I said...at all. 

I'm just wondering what you would have done differently. Considering 2017 was one of the worst drafts in recent memory, I dont think it was a "good" draft, I just dont believe we could have done much better. There's bound to be hiccups in every rebuild, and you criticizing Holland for not getting better players when none were available is just crazy to me. 

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1 hour ago, Euro_Twins said:

I'm just wondering what you would have done differently. Considering 2017 was one of the worst drafts in recent memory, I dont think it was a "good" draft, I just dont believe we could have done much better. There's bound to be hiccups in every rebuild, and you criticizing Holland for not getting better players when none were available is just crazy to me. 

You may want to pay more attention.  I'm not criticizing Holland for anything.  I was asked about Tyler Wright's drafting because I said I was bummed to see him leave.  My assessment of Wright is that 2017 was bad, but 2018 and 2019 were really good.  You can add 2016 to that as well.  I've long been a Holland supporter and was not at all pleased when Yzerman took over.  A bad draft is a bad draft though, and there absolutely were better players who were picked after we chose Rasmussen (a guy I actually like) and Lindstrom (a guy who will probably play in the NHL) and everything after those two picks was absolute trash.  So before you parachute in and save the day, maybe go back and read the conversation first. 

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3 hours ago, mackel said:

The "I told you SO's" regarding Zadina are gonna be so so sweet... but by then the revisonary history experts at LGW will likely have themselves convinced they were the ones pumping the breaks on Zadina.

Yes what a hot take you have, a prospect not reaching his potential. You'll be a regular Nostradamus. 

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3 hours ago, mackel said:

The "I told you SO's" regarding Zadina are gonna be so so sweet... but by then the revisonary history experts at LGW will likely have themselves convinced they were the ones pumping the breaks on Zadina.

*fingers crossed* 

Edited by The 91 of Ryans

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20 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You may want to pay more attention.  I'm not criticizing Holland for anything.  I was asked about Tyler Wright's drafting because I said I was bummed to see him leave.  My assessment of Wright is that 2017 was bad, but 2018 and 2019 were really good.  You can add 2016 to that as well.  I've long been a Holland supporter and was not at all pleased when Yzerman took over.  A bad draft is a bad draft though, and there absolutely were better players who were picked after we chose Rasmussen (a guy I actually like) and Lindstrom (a guy who will probably play in the NHL) and everything after those two picks was absolute trash.  So before you parachute in and save the day, maybe go back and read the conversation first. 

Remains to be seen. I still havent seen anyone available to us in the 2017 draft that was really above anyone we picked... yes most organizations havent cut ties with half the guys they drafted that year... yet. But they will be lucky if 1 guy pans out for them. 

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On 7/19/2019 at 10:27 PM, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

Yes what a hot take you have, a prospect not reaching his potential. You'll be a regular Nostradamus. 

Thanks for making my point lol

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3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Not reaching potential ≠ bust...

Lol you're already soft selling "failure" so you can claim you saw it coming when I call you out in 2-3 years...  so predictable. 

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9 hours ago, mackel said:

Lol you're already soft selling "failure" so you can claim you saw it coming when I call you out in 2-3 years...  so predictable. 

Lol you're already backpedaling on you're "bust" comments when everyone calls you out in 2-3 years... so predictable.

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On 7/19/2019 at 10:20 PM, Jonas Mahonas said:

Zadina is good.  Why are people hatin?

Because Kotkaniemi and Tkachuk are playing in the NHL already and that means we should've picked one of them instead, even though neither one was available to us.

Also, Quinn Hughes skates real good.

Edited by Dabura

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On 7/20/2019 at 4:20 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

Zadina is good.  Why are people hatin?

A good question. They seem to be dissapointed that he didn´t come into the league right away to tear it down, a teenager who probably couldn´t really handle the hype of being projected top 3 all year and then being picked  at #6. Who than played in the AHL, a team that had to send half of their defense to the big club to start the season. Where he, after early season struggles, had a promising second half of the season.

and to argue now that we should have taken someone else, after most "experts" had him at three and everyone screams to go for the best player available is a bit odd to me. It´s easy to say a year after a draft "we should have done this way".

 

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26 minutes ago, ely s said:

A good question. They seem to be dissapointed that he didn´t come into the league right away to tear it down, a teenager who probably couldn´t really handle the hype of being projected top 3 all year and then being picked  at #6. Who than played in the AHL, a team that had to send half of their defense to the big club to start the season. Where he, after early season struggles, had a promising second half of the season.

and to argue now that we should have taken someone else, after most "experts" had him at three and everyone screams to go for the best player available is a bit odd to me. It´s easy to say a year after a draft "we should have done this way".

 

He lazy

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The Athletic's Scott Wheeler has Zadina listed as the #12 best prospect on his latest 'Top 50 drafted NHL prospects' list. The full list is behind a paywall, but someone posted the top 20 on Reddit.

Here's his criteria:

  • The player must be drafted. In rare circumstances, a player who went undrafted but has signed an entry-level contract and merits inclusion in the top 50, may be eligible.

  • The player must be under 23 years old (the same criteria I use as a cut-off for my team-specific prospect rankings). We know that a player is nearing the end of his development around 23. I have long believed that Calder eligibility should also be limited to a similar age cutoff.

  • The player must not have played in the majority of his club’s NHL games last season. If he did, particularly if those games were during the tail end of the season, he is no longer deemed a prospect. Here, I occasionally applied my own discretion with players who played more NHL games than they did in any other league last season but didn’t finish the year there. I also considered age. Someone like 20-year-old Henri Jokiharju, who played 38 NHL games last season but didn’t play a single NHL game after from the end of February onward, was made eligible. For example, though, I would have been less lenient if Jokiharju were 22 (as I was when I opted to exclude Oliver Kylington and his 38 games played).

I guess Veleno is on there as well, no Seider.


1-Jack Hughes

2-Kaapo Kakko

3-Quinn Hughes

4-Cale Makar

5-Evan Bouchard

6-Alex Turcotte

7-Cody Glass

8-Bowen Byram

9-Dylan Cozens

10-Adam Fox

11-Kirill Kaprizov

12-Filip Zadina

13-Dante Fabbro

14-Adam Boqvist

15-Nick Suzuki

16-Martin Necas

17-Matthew Boldy

18-Kirby Dach

19-Aleksi Heponiemi

20-Erik Brannstrom

 

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13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Lol you're already backpedaling on you're "bust" comments when everyone calls you out in 2-3 years... so predictable.

Stand by it 100%  unlike you... Zadina was going to be a superstar, then a star, then an NHL regular, now an NHLer... what next the average prospect played 100 games.  Is that your new non "bust" bar... you're a @#$%*&€ joke.

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On 7/19/2019 at 7:55 PM, kipwinger said:

You may want to pay more attention.  I'm not criticizing Holland for anything.  I was asked about Tyler Wright's drafting because I said I was bummed to see him leave.  My assessment of Wright is that 2017 was bad, but 2018 and 2019 were really good.  You can add 2016 to that as well.  I've long been a Holland supporter and was not at all pleased when Yzerman took over.  A bad draft is a bad draft though, and there absolutely were better players who were picked after we chose Rasmussen (a guy I actually like) and Lindstrom (a guy who will probably play in the NHL) and everything after those two picks was absolute trash.  So before you parachute in and save the day, maybe go back and read the conversation first. 

I, of course, would've rather had Tippett instead of Rasmussen, but he hasn't proven to anyone that he is actually fairing any better, so that all remains to be seen how good Ras becomes.  When it comes to the 2nd round, there was one kid I would've rather had instead of Lindstrom, although he hasn't played in the NHL yet either, and he is a forward, Alexander Volkov.  Other than that, ya, the rest of that draft kinda blew after a couple of seasons have gone by, but, as of yet, not just for us.

re: 2018, I know Holland drafted BPA when Zadina slipped to 6, but I would've rather had a D in that spot, any of Hughes, Bouchard or Dobson. IF I was looking for a forward, I would've gone with Wahlstrom.  I remain optimistic on Zadina since he's only played 9 games, we'll see where he lands this October.  I do know that within the calendar year, he better be turning lots of heads and filling some nets or he'll be considered a bust too. 6th overall, already playing pro hockey, shouldn't take 3 years to get tho the NHL, he should be here within this season, permanently.  I'd understand if he was playing overseas, or junior last season and this would be his first year in pro, but he has a full year under his belt, he is a #6 OA, projected #3, he has no business NOT being in the NHL, unless he is just a bust.  Fingers crossed!

Edited by LeftWinger

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1 hour ago, mackel said:

Stand by it 100%  unlike you... Zadina was going to be a superstar, then a star, then an NHL regular, now an NHLer... what next the average prospect played 100 games.  Is that your new non "bust" bar... you're a @#$%*&€ joke.

I have never changed my projection of Zadina. Where the f*** did I say that Zadina will be a "superstar", then a "star", then an "NHL regular", then an "NHLer"... Oh, that's right, I didn't... I've said and I maintain that Zadina will be a very good NHLer, that will put up anywhere from 25-35+ goals a season.

You said that Zadina will be a bust after the first few games in Grand Rapids, based on his play in juniors... You're the only "joke" around here pal...

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While we're on the 2018, instead of Berggren,I would've chosen Noel, but since neither of them are in the NHL yet, that remains up in the air on where they compare.

28 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You're the only "joke" around here pal...

this is what I get for not being around as much! I used to be the only joke around here! :lol:

Edited by LeftWinger

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21 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

 

Zadina better go beast mode this year.  Quinn Hughes is gonna be a good NHLer.  His skaing is impressive.

Franzen and Hossa
Filppula and Weiss
Quincey and no Quincey
Blashill and Babcock
The streak and the tank
Zadina and Hughes

Why does Holland always choose wrong?

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