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2019-20 Prospects Thread

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https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/notes-red-wings-take-on-toronto-for-howe-division-title/c-309003918

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Seider feels playing against men in the DEL, has helped him anticipate the play especially when he should pinch in or stay back.

"Playing with pros at such a young age. All the old guys help you every single day in practice," he said. "Everybody tries to get the best out of you. I'm very thankful for everyone. Sometimes it's just like a feeling, where the puck comes next and you jump up the play. But sometimes you just have to figure out what's best and sometimes not the best option (is) to pinch."

Simon, who played a year in the DEL, agrees with Seider's assessment, but he is cautious about becoming too effusive about the rookie.

"This is a rookie tournament. In two games, he's done well. He's shown well for himself," Simon said. "He's shown poise with the puck, he's making plays with the puck, he's seeing plays, he's making plays. Again, he has been encouraging. He's a bright spot for this team right now. Hopefully again, he takes that into training camp and continues to progress through the training camp.

"There's always an acclimation period. But for Mo, talking to him and being around him for a week here, you can tell that he's a pretty mature kid. Whether he ends up - wherever he ends up - I think that he's going to have a little bit of an adjustment because it's just the reality, it's a different country, it's a different language, it's a different culture. There's a lot of difference. There's a lot of firsts.

"But for him being as mature as he is as a player and as a person, you're still going to see an adjustment period. but I don't see it being a ton. He's got potential, young kids take a lot of time to develop, but he works hard, he competes hard, he takes care of himself and I think that based on what I've seen, I think that acclimation period might be a little bit smaller, hopefully because of those contributing factors."

:cool:

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Dear @kipwinger and @The 91 of Ryans

Can we talk about how awful Kaden Fulcher is? How does this kid have a contract with Detroit? Romeo took his lunch and ordered seconds. 

Seider is ready for the NHL. Full grown. Smart. Mature. Leader. Mobile. What more do you need? Im most surprised by just how sound his decision making is. Hes calm and collected on every play, and even very comfortable in the O zone. But then he goes to the corners and arrives violently. The kid is not afraid at all of punishing oppenents in the corners. 

Im smitten. Gentlemen I think we have our cornerstone Dman. 

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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41 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Can we talk about how awful Kaden Fulcher is? How does this kid have a contract with Detroit? Romeo took his lunch and ordered seconds. 

Seider is ready for the NHL. Full grown. Smart. Mature. Leader. Mobile. What more do you need? Im most surprised by just how sound his decision making is. Hes calm and collected on every play, and even very comfortable in the O zone. But then he goes to the corners and arrives violently. The kid is not afraid at all of punishing oppenents in the corners. 

Im smitten. Gentlemen I think we have our cornerstone Dman. 

I like your enthusiasm guy, but you might want to hold off on those kinds of pronouncements.  If he scores 12 points and gets torched by AHL level competition I suspect you'll be singing a very different tune.

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Just now, kipwinger said:

I like your enthusiasm guy, but you might want to hold off on those kinds of pronouncements.  If he scores 12 points and gets torched by AHL level competition I suspect you'll be singing a very different tune.

Meh I'm fairly confident as I always have been in my assessments of players. This kid is really good. Noticeably good. I'm more worried you're going to regret statements like this one than I am my own.

I would like this kid to get 9 games with Detroit. Return to GR. And then join the team full time in January or whenever injuries set in. If that doesn't happen I feel confident Seider will be a Wing come the 2020/21 season.

Did you watch him play? Would you like to critique his game?

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3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Can we talk about how awful Kaden Fulcher is? How does this kid have a contract with Detroit? Romeo took his lunch and ordered seconds. 

Seider is ready for the NHL. Full grown. Smart. Mature. Leader. Mobile. What more do you need? Im most surprised by just how sound his decision making is. Hes calm and collected on every play, and even very comfortable in the O zone. But then he goes to the corners and arrives violently. The kid is not afraid at all of punishing oppenents in the corners. 

Im smitten. Gentlemen I think we have our cornerstone Dman. 

We have drafted the love child of Fischer and Konstantinov.

It's like poetry. It rhymes.

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3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

We have drafted the love child of Fischer and Konstantinov.

It's like poetry. It rhymes.

Honestly - and I hate to say this - he almost reminds me of Pronger minus the douchiness. He's not overly skilled but he's a workhouse who's gonna garner points anyway. He makes smart defensive decisions, but he's not above beating your lower back to death with his stick in the corner. Now that I think about it maybe the better comparison is Chelios. 

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23 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Honestly - and I hate to say this - he almost reminds me of Pronger minus the douchiness. He's not overly skilled but he's a workhouse who's gonna garner points anyway. He makes smart defensive decisions, but he's not above beating your lower back to death with his stick in the corner. Now that I think about it maybe the better comparison is Chelios. 

What's to prevent Chris Chelios from being reincarnated as a German kid???

4 minutes ago, Mckinley25 said:

I like your repurposing of Lucas’ lazy prequel defense.  

George Lucas...

...Lucas...

...Lucas Raymond

 

 

 

My God.

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38 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Meh I'm fairly confident as I always have been in my assessments of players. This kid is really good. Noticeably good. I'm more worried you're going to regret statements like this one than I am my own.

I would like this kid to get 9 games with Detroit. Return to GR. And then join the team full time in January or whenever injuries set in. If that doesn't happen I feel confident Seider will be a Wing come the 2020/21 season.

Did you watch him play? Would you like to critique his game?

Didn't see it.  But in a game where Chase Pearson scores a hat trick my guess is that the level of competition isn't great.  Seider might very well turn in to a cornerstone defender, as you've suggested.  I'm just not likely to be convinced of that by a solid showing in the Red Wings prospect tournament. 

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1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Didn't see it.  But in a game where Chase Pearson scores a hat trick my guess is that the level of competition isn't great.  Seider might very well turn in to a cornerstone defender, as you've suggested.  I'm just not likely to be convinced of that by a solid showing in the Red Wings prospect tournament. 

Seider is like Nick Lidstrom except he doesn't make mistakes.

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10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Didn't see it.  But in a game where Chase Pearson scores a hat trick my guess is that the level of competition isn't great.  Seider might very well turn in to a cornerstone defender, as you've suggested.  I'm just not likely to be convinced of that by a solid showing in the Red Wings prospect tournament. 

That's fine. I support the cynicism. It's empirically reasonable given the circumstance.

Completely biased though, I love this player. I have not seen a Dman like this enter the Red Wings system for as long as I can remember. That includes Hronek and Kronwall. I'm much higher on Seider than I was on either of those players. Pearson played really well, I like how he's been going.

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4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

That's fine. I support the cynicism. It's empirically reasonable given the circumstance.

Completely biased though, I love this player. I have not seen a Dman like this enter the Red Wings system for as long as I can remember. That includes Hronek and Kronwall. I'm much higher on Seider than I was on either of those players. Pearson played really well, I like how he's been going.

Skepticism, not cynicism. 

In general though, I think regardless of the level of competition it's clearly better to be performing well at these things than not doing well.  So there's reason for optimism.  If Seider, or Veleno, or Pearson, or whomever continue this in the AHL then I'll start taking notice.  Right now it's all potential for me though. 

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2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Skepticism, not cynicism. 

In general though, I think regardless of the level of competition it's clearly better to be performing well at these things than not doing well.  So there's reason for optimism.  If Seider, or Veleno, or Pearson, or whomever continue this in the AHL then I'll start taking notice.  Right now it's all potential for me though. 

agreed

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6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Skepticism, not cynicism. 

In general though, I think regardless of the level of competition it's clearly better to be performing well at these things than not doing well.  So there's reason for optimism.  If Seider, or Veleno, or Pearson, or whomever continue this in the AHL then I'll start taking notice.  Right now it's all potential for me though. 

I agree in general on your assessment, but you probably should watch the replay of these three games. Compared to the rest of our D-prospects, he looks like a veteran. I understand your cautiousness on prospects and we all might be a little hyped up, but watch him play...

On pp he is a nightmare for opponents, distributing the puck quick and flawless, anticipating plays, finding open players, very good positioning.

All three teams took cheap shots on him and he made them all pay for it. After his penalty which lead to the 3-2 for Toronto he really picked up his play and showed the will and ability to be the man on the ice.

Just watch him

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2 hours ago, ely s said:

I agree in general on your assessment, but you probably should watch the replay of these three games. Compared to the rest of our D-prospects, he looks like a veteran. I understand your cautiousness on prospects and we all might be a little hyped up, but watch him play...

On pp he is a nightmare for opponents, distributing the puck quick and flawless, anticipating plays, finding open players, very good positioning.

All three teams took cheap shots on him and he made them all pay for it. After his penalty which lead to the 3-2 for Toronto he really picked up his play and showed the will and ability to be the man on the ice.

Just watch him

I have every intention of watching him play.  In the AHL.  Regardless of how he looks in this tourney, half (or more) of each roster is filled out by undrafted scrubs.  And looking good against them if you're a top player (or even a Chase Pearson) isn't that impressive to me.  Again, Seider may end up being as good as you're all suggesting.  But the Traverse City Tourney isn't likely to convince me of that. 

Edited by kipwinger

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14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I have every intention of watching him play.  In the AHL.  Regardless of how he looks in this tourney, half (or more) of each roster is filled out by undrafted scrubs.  And looking good against them if you're a top player (or even a Chase Pearson) isn't that impressive to me.  Again, Seider may end up being as good as you're all suggesting.  But the Traverse City Tourney isn't likely to convince me of that. 

Translation: I have gone on record poo-pooing the Seider pick and will now do everything I can to defend this opinion. 

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9 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Translation: I have gone on record poo-pooing the Seider pick and will now do everything I can to defend this opinion. 

Might wanna read what I said at the time guy.  Even then I said that Seider might well turn out to be a good defenseman, but that I'd rather have one of the two centers with "star" upside who were still on the board.  Also, I'm more than happy to eat crow on prospects.  Did it with Pulkkinen, Frk, Kindl and will do it again with Seider if need be.  But I'm not ready to say the kid is a stud top pairing defenseman after performing well in a tournament which is a step down from the competition he played in the DEL.  Let's see how he does against BETTER players than he did a year ago before we start licking our chops. 

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2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Might wanna read what I said at the time guy.  Even then I said that Seider might well turn out to be a good defenseman, but that I'd rather have one of the two centers with "star" upside who were still on the board.  Also, I'm more than happy to eat crow on prospects.  Did it with Pulkkinen, Frk, Kindl and will do it again with Seider if need be.  But I'm not ready to say the kid is a stud top pairing defenseman after performing well in a tournament which is a step down from the competition he played in the DEL.  Let's see how he does against BETTER players than he did a year ago before we start licking our chops. 

lol You don't think Seider has star upside? But think Cozens (who's barely a center) was one of two centers with "star" upside? OhhhhhhhK.

Also, Zegras is basically Paul Stasny. Career #2 C upside. I'm glad we took the guy with a very good chance of becoming a top pair D.

See, I can do this too. 

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16 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

lol You don't think Seider has star upside? But think Cozens (who's barely a center) was one of two centers with "star" upside? OhhhhhhhK.

Also, Zegras is basically Paul Stasny. Career #2 C upside. I'm glad we took the guy with a very good chance of becoming a top pair D.

See, I can do this too. 

Good for you.  Anybody COULD be a top line player.  Even late rounders like Datsyuk turn do it occasionally.  That's as useless an observation as saying anyone COULD be a bust. Seider had modest production in a 2nd tier men's league last year, and now he's playing pretty well against a bunch of undrafted CHLers.  Good for him, but that is not some indication that he's going to be a top pair defenseman one day.  Do it in the AHL and then I'll be a little more optimistic.

My point (if you're actually interested in it and not just being an argumentative ******) is that at the time of the Seider pick NOBODY had him going that high.  None.  And that's not just the Craig Buttons and Corey Pronmans either.  That's NHL central scouting, that's our own GM (who said he wanted to trade back but couldn't find a taker). Conversely, two guys who were consistently ranked much higher had slid down the board and given my oft stated desire for a center with offensive upside that was my preference. 

Edit:  Also just for reference's sake, Trevor Zegras had 7 assists in 5 games at the World Junior Championships a few months ago.  That is a MUCH better tourney than this one.  So using your logic, if Seider is a top guy after this tourney, than Zegras was a hall of famer after that one. 

Edited by kipwinger

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16 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Good for you.  Anybody COULD be a top line player.  Even late rounders like Datsyuk turn do it occasionally.  That's as useless an observation as saying anyone COULD be a bust. 

My point (if you're actually interested in it and not just being an argumentative ******) is that at the time of the Seider pick NOBODY had him going that high.  None.  And that's not just the Craig Buttons and Corey Pronmans either.  That's NHL central scouting, that's our own GM (who said he wanted to trade back scenarios but couldn't find one). Conversely, two guys who were consistently ranked much higher had slid down the board and given my oft stated desire for a center with offensive upside that was my preference. 

That's some JUICY hypocrisy right there. 

Yzerman took the player on the rise and snubbed the two players on the slide. Seems smart to me. But you don't think Yzerman is the "right" GM for this team, and the Seider pick gets the hammer by association. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Edit:  Also just for reference's sake, Trevor Zegras had 7 assists in 5 games at the World Junior Championships a few months ago.  That is a MUCH better tourney than this one.  So using your logic, if Seider is a top guy after this tourney, than Zegras was a hall of famer after that one. 

7 whole assists? Holy f*** that's awesome. 

Also, read what I said guy. I've not gone boner-mode based on his play this tournament. That's CRLs and our German dude. 

I'm just here to point out that your anti-Seider bias is showing. Might wanna tuck that in. 

Edited by The 91 of Ryans

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Just now, The 91 of Ryans said:

That's some JUICY hypocrisy right there. 

Yzerman took the player on the rise and snubbed the two players on the slide. Seems smart to me. But you don't think Yzerman is the "right" GM for this team, and the Seider pick gets the hammer by association. 

 

 

Wait, you think I'm holding a grudge against an 18 year old because I don't think Yzerman shouldn't have gotten his current job?  Lol.  Ok dude. 

On your way out, just answer me this.  If Seider tearing it up at the Traverse City Prospects tourney means he'll probably be a top pair defender, then what does Chase Pearson's 4 goals in 3 games at the same tourney mean?  Is he our new 2nd line center now?  Or should we maybe temper our optimism a bit?

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7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Wait, you think I'm holding a grudge against an 18 year old because I don't think Yzerman shouldn't have gotten his current job?  Lol.  Ok dude. 

On your way out, just answer me this.  If Seider tearing it up at the Traverse City Prospects tourney means he'll probably be a top pair defender, then what does Chase Pearson's 4 goals in 3 games at the same tourney mean?  Is he our new 2nd line center now?  Or should we maybe temper our optimism a bit?

Hey everybody. Kip's here to tell us to not get too excited by hockey. Thanks Grandpa. 

You're not holding a grudge against an 18 year old no. That would be stupid. But you have a confirmation bias issue. Pretty obvious. And equally stupid. 

The fact that your using the play of a 22 year old forward who has played north american hockey his whole life and been pro for two years to get all flippant about an 18 year old defensive import is a sad sad move

Edited by The 91 of Ryans

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2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Hey everybody. Kip's here to tell us to not get too excited by hockey. Thanks Grandpa. 

You're not holding a grudge against an 18 year old no. That would be stupid. But you have a confirmation bias issue. Pretty obvious. And equally stupid. 

Ok, I'll play.  I've said about 2,000 times that the kid may end up being a top pair defenseman but that the proof of concept is not the Traverse City Prospect Tourney.  How is that confirmation bias? 

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1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Ok, I'll play.  I've said about 2,000 times that the kid may end up being a top pair defenseman but that the proof of concept is not the Traverse City Prospect Tourney.  How is that confirmation bias? 

If you've said this "2000 times" then you must have said he was the wrong pick about 8000 times. 

Anyway, I'll answer this question with two questions of my own:

1. why is it your job to roll in here and crap on everyone for getting truly excited about a defensive prospect for the first time in two decades?

2. why you gotta be so defensive when I come in and basically Kipwinger(v.) Kipwinger(n.) the way Kipwinger(n.) Kipwingered(v.) Legs and Ely? 

All I can think is either a) you hate all happiness that isn't you own or b) Seider being good doesn't align with your M.O.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

If you've said this "2000 times" then you must have said he was the wrong pick about 8000 times. 

Anyway, I'll answer this question with two questions of my own:

1. why is it your job to roll in here and crap on everyone for getting truly excited about a defensive prospect for the first time in two decades?

2. why you gotta be so defensive when I come in and basically Kipwinger(v.) Kipwinger(n.) the way Kipwinger(n.) Kipwingered(v.) Legs and Ely? 

All I can think is either a) you hate all happiness that isn't you own or b) Seider being good doesn't align with your M.O.

 

 

 

 

I didn't "crap" on anybody, I gave my opinion on a prospect playing in a tournament this week.  That opinion just happens to differ from the "he's awesome" crowd a bit.  Also, I'm not being defensive.  You addressed me first and I responded.  That's what discussion boards are for. 

Below is my first post about Seider after he was drafted. I stand by it given that since then he's played no meaningful hockey games, and the ones he has played are against lesser competition.  It's not confirmation bias if nothing substantial has changed since you last opined on something.

"So, I was gone all weekend and am only now getting to review our draft.  In short, it sucks.  There are some decent players here, but we did nothing to address our biggest organizational weakness: our center depth.  Prior to the draft our depth chart was Larkin, Veleno, and (maybe) AA.  And it's exactly the same after the draft.  The single most important position on any hockey team was completely ignored in a really important draft.  We didn't have a really high end defensive prospect before the draft, we don't now.  We consistently passed on skill players for guys with intangibles like "hockey sense" and "compete level". 

It wasn't a complete disaster.  Seider will be a good defenseman, but not an elite one.  Even if he turns into a Paryako, which is probably his ceiling, a guy like that doesn't significantly change the complexion of our defense or team. He's a good piece but probably not a great one at 6th.  Very much the Michael Rasmussen of defensemen (and I'm a Rasmussen fan).  Grewe has Tyler Bertuzzi upside, which is a good complimentary piece on a team full of good complimentary pieces.  Maybe Tuomisto adds a little offense from the back end, but probably not any more than Cholo or Hronek or McIsaac.  But we were a team without any real game changers prior to the draft, and we still are despite a really high pick in a draft with lots of guys with (supposedly) elite upside."

 

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