• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Dabura

2019-20 Prospects Thread

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

If you've said this "2000 times" then you must have said he was the wrong pick about 8000 times. 

Anyway, I'll answer this question with two questions of my own:

1. why is it your job to roll in here and crap on everyone for getting truly excited about a defensive prospect for the first time in two decades?

2. why you gotta be so defensive when I come in and basically Kipwinger(v.) Kipwinger(n.) the way Kipwinger(n.) Kipwingered(v.) Legs and Ely? 

All I can think is either a) you hate all happiness that isn't you own or b) Seider being good doesn't align with your M.O.

 

 

 

 

Dude, you have to learn to look at Kipwinger like that stale pack of crackers in your pantry that you test one last time before spitting out and throwing away.  That little glimmer of hope for a good experience never pans out, but you know it would have gone better had you just opened the package once and let others have more than you.  Right now, you are just mowing on a whole row of em.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I didn't "crap" on anybody, I gave my opinion on a prospect playing in a tournament this week.  That opinion just happens to differ from the "he's awesome" crowd a bit.  Also, I'm not being defensive.  You addressed me first and I responded.  That's what discussion boards are for. 

Below is my first post about Seider after he was drafted. I stand by it given that since then he's played no meaningful hockey games, and the ones he has played are against lesser competition.  It's not confirmation bias if nothing substantial has changed since you last opined on something.

"So, I was gone all weekend and am only now getting to review our draft.  In short, it sucks.  There are some decent players here, but we did nothing to address our biggest organizational weakness: our center depth.  Prior to the draft our depth chart was Larkin, Veleno, and (maybe) AA.  And it's exactly the same after the draft.  The single most important position on any hockey team was completely ignored in a really important draft.  We didn't have a really high end defensive prospect before the draft, we don't now.  We consistently passed on skill players for guys with intangibles like "hockey sense" and "compete level". 

It wasn't a complete disaster.  Seider will be a good defenseman, but not an elite one.  Even if he turns into a Paryako, which is probably his ceiling, a guy like that doesn't significantly change the complexion of our defense or team. He's a good piece but probably not a great one at 6th.  Very much the Michael Rasmussen of defensemen (and I'm a Rasmussen fan).  Grewe has Tyler Bertuzzi upside, which is a good complimentary piece on a team full of good complimentary pieces.  Maybe Tuomisto adds a little offense from the back end, but probably not any more than Cholo or Hronek or McIsaac.  But we were a team without any real game changers prior to the draft, and we still are despite a really high pick in a draft with lots of guys with (supposedly) elite upside."

 

LOL you could have watched half a prospect game in the time you have spent trying to make your point. 

 

12 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Dude, you have to learn to look at Kipwinger like that stale pack of crackers in your pantry that you test one last time before spitting out and throwing away.  That little glimmer of hope for a good experience never pans out, but you know it would have gone better had you just opened the package once and let others have more than you.  Right now, you are just mowing on a whole row of em.

You stay out of this! 

Also: wut? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

LOL you could have watched half a prospect game in the time you have spent trying to make your point. 

 

You sure showed me.  I'll start studying tape immediately.  No better way to evaluate a guy like Seider than by watching a subpar prospect's tournament in the middle of September. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You sure showed me.  I'll start studying tape immediately.  No better way to evaluate a guy like Seider than by watching a subpar prospect's tournament in the middle of September. 

True. Why do that when you can just read what Corey Pronman has to say instead of forming your own opinion. 

Probably can't count on you to watch a game and use your vision and imagination to project a kid's upside anyway. 

Edited by The 91 of Ryans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, The 91 of Ryans said:

True. Why do that when you can just read what Corey Pronman has to say instead of forming your own opinion. 

Probably can't count on you to watch a game and use your vision and imagination to project a kid's upside anyway. 

Instead of "imagining" how good I hope he is, I'll just wait until he plays meaningful hockey games against decent opponents and then draw conclusions.  Guess that makes me old fashioned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Instead of "imagining" how good I hope he is,

I'll just wait until he plays meaningful hockey games against decent opponents and then draw conclusions.  Guess that makes me old fashioned. 

I didn't say anything about hope. You've already told us we can't have any of that around here.

That second part is especially riddled with irony. If only you'd just ******* do that. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I didn't say anything about hope. You've already told us we can't have any of that around here.

That second part is especially riddled with irony. If only you'd just ******* do that. 

 

The minute Moritz Seider plays against good players and excels at it, we'll talk.  He just hasn't done that yet.  I'm happy to explain all the reasons why the Traverse City Prospects Tourney is a joke if you want though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

The minute Moritz Seider plays against good players and excels at it, we'll talk.  He just hasn't done that yet.  I'm happy to explain all the reasons why the Traverse City Prospects Tourney is a joke if you want though. 

So you'll shut up about what a bad pick he was until then? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

So you'll shut up about what a bad pick he was until then? 

 

Never said he was a bad pick.  Ever.  I said I would have picked other guys.  I also said we had a bad draft overall because we didn't address our biggest needs.  Also said he was a reach at 6th, which the GM admitted when he said he wanted to trade back for him. 

In fact, I've only ever been complimentary to Mortiz Seider while also having a reasonable degree of skepticism given A) his concensus draft rankings, B) the second-tier competition he's played against, 3) the availability of potentially better players. 

I'm not sure what you're so bent out of shape about. 

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Imagine thinking that you can only judge a player if they're playing against equal or better competition. How do scouts rank high end prospects (Alex Newhook), when they're clearly playing against inferior competition in a sub par league (BCHL).

Maybe they ignore the competition and look at the raw tools of the individual player. Crazy, I know...

I'm confused though. Why did you (@kipwinger) ask where you could watch the previous games if you had no intention of watching the games?

 

Anyway, I see no harm in hyping prospects. We're all fans of the same team. We should all be excited about the same players. I'd prefer to be overly optimistic about a prospect like Seider or Zadina or Veleno, than be overly pessimistic... or worse again, come down on people that do choose to hype these players.

Sure, it's only a prospects tournament. We're all aware of that. We all know the level of competition at these tournaments, but the players that we need to be playing well, are doing just that. Hockey is back. I love this time of year. HYPE!!! (or not). You do you...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Never said he was a bad pick.  Ever.  I said I would have picked other guys.  I also said we had a bad draft overall because we didn't address our biggest needs.  Also said he was a reach at 6th, which the GM admitted when he said he wanted to trade back for him. 

In fact, I've only ever been complimentary to Mortiz Seider while also having a reasonable degree of skepticism given A) his concensus draft rankings, B) the second-tier league he played in, 3) the availability of potentially better players. 

I'm not sure what you're so bent out of shape about. 

Narratives, that's what. ******* narratives.

And here me on this, ONLY Kipwinger thinks that addressing the center position is our biggest need. Ot at least one that eclipses fixing the D. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Imagine thinking that you can only judge a player if they're playing against equal or better competition. How do scouts rank high end prospects (Alex Newhook), when they're clearly playing against inferior competition in a sub par league (BCHL).

Maybe they ignore the competition and look at the raw tools of the individual player. Crazy, I know...

I'm confused though. Why did you (@kipwinger) ask where you could watch the previous games if you had no intention of watching the games?

 

Anyway, I see no harm in hyping prospects. We're all fans of the same team. We should all be excited about the same players. I'd prefer to be overly optimistic about a prospect like Seider or Zadina or Veleno, than be overly pessimistic... or worse again, come down on people that do choose to hype these players.

Sure, it's only a prospects tournament. We're all aware of that. We all know the level of competition at these tournaments, but the players that we need to be playing well, are doing just that. Hockey is back. I love this time of year. HYPE!!! (or not). You do you...

Me Being Right > DRWs

I call it Mackel-itis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Imagine thinking that you can only judge a player if they're playing against equal or better competition. How do scouts rank high end prospects (Alex Newhook), when they're clearly playing against inferior competition in a sub par league (BCHL).

Maybe they ignore the competition and look at the raw tools of the individual player. Crazy, I know...

I'm confused though. Why did you (@kipwinger) ask where you could watch the previous games if you had no intention of watching the games?

 

Anyway, I see no harm in hyping prospects. We're all fans of the same team. We should all be excited about the same players. I'd prefer to be overly optimistic about a prospect like Seider or Zadina or Veleno, than be overly pessimistic... or worse again, come down on people that do choose to hype these players.

Sure, it's only a prospects tournament. We're all aware of that. We all know the level of competition at these tournaments, but the players that we need to be playing well, are doing just that. Hockey is back. I love this time of year. HYPE!!! (or not). You do you...

I assume all most round picks have the raw physical tools to be good NHLers.  I don't need to have that proven to me, I take it as a given.  I also voiced concerns about Newhook playing in the BCHL FYI.  As did plenty of other prognosticators.  Might be the reason he went 16th overall when coming into the season (which he dominated) he was ranked in the top 5.

I asked because I watch all games online and was curious if there was another place to watch aside from the ones I've typically used.  Is that alright?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Never said he was a bad pick.  Ever.  I said I would have picked other guys.  I also said we had a bad draft overall because we didn't address our biggest needs.  Also said he was a reach at 6th, which the GM admitted when he said he wanted to trade back for him. 

In fact, I've only ever been complimentary to Mortiz Seider while also having a reasonable degree of skepticism given A) his concensus draft rankings, B) the second-tier competition he's played against, 3) the availability of potentially better players. 

I'm not sure what you're so bent out of shape about. 

Yzerman did NOT admit that Seider was a reach at 6th. He was only considering a trade back because he didn't think other teams had him as high on their board. Why not trade back and pick up an extra asset if you can still get your guy? It would be stupid not to. That's what Holland did in 2013 when he traded back two spots to take his guy (Mantha) at 20, and picked up an extra 2nd round pick (Bertuzzi). If Yzerman could have done the same he would have. He quickly realized that other teams shortly after him were really high on Seider as well, so he took his guy with his pick.

Do you really think there were players available at 6 that Yzerman and co thought were better than Seider, but picked the lesser player anyway?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Narratives, that's what. ******* narratives.

And here me on this, ONLY Kipwinger thinks that addressing the center position is our biggest need. Ot at least one that eclipses fixing the D.

Didn't you just criticize me for NOT having my own points of view and relying too much on people like Pronman?  Now I'm being TOO individualistic in my assessments and should fall in line with LGW?  Which is it?

The reason why center is a bigger issue than defense, even before the draft, is because we have one good center in the NHL (Larkin), and one good prospect (Veleno).  Whereas we had a ton of high quality defensive prospects, even before the draft.  Hronek, Cholo, McIsaac, Lindstrom, Kaski, and Regula were all on the team already.  So I was less concerned with our defensive depth. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I assume all most round picks have the raw physical tools to be good NHLers.  I don't need to have that proven to me, I take it as a given.  I also voiced concerns about Newhook playing in the BCHL FYI.  As did plenty of other prognosticators.  Might be the reason he went 16th overall when coming into the season (which he dominated) he was ranked in the top 5.

I asked because I watch all games online and was curious if there was another place to watch aside from the ones I've typically used.  Is that alright?

So did you or did you not watch the games?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yzerman did NOT admit that Seider was a reach at 6th. He was only considering a trade back because he didn't think other teams had him as high on their board. Why not trade back and pick up an extra asset if you can still get your guy? It would be stupid not to. That's what Holland did in 2013 when he traded back two spots to take his guy (Mantha) at 20, and picked up an extra 2nd round pick (Bertuzzi). If Yzerman could have done the same he would have. He quickly realized that other teams shortly after him were really high on Seider as well, so he took his guy with his pick.

Do you really think there were players available at 6 that Yzerman and co thought were better than Seider, but picked the lesser player anyway?

Trading back only works if you're convinced the player will still be there.  If Yzerman thought Seider would still be there, then that means he (and the other GMs in between) didn't have Seider ranked as highly as some other players.  Not sure what's hard to follow about this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, krsmith17 said:

So did you or did you not watch the games?

I already said I didn't. To reiterate, I was more interested in the media source providing the games than the games themselves.  If you were streaming, for instance, I wanted to know where you were getting the stream from.  Got it?

I've already made clear that I'm not  that interested in watching Mortiz Seider, Joe Veleno, and Filip Zadina beat up on 5th round picks and undrafted camp invitees. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Didn't you just criticize me for NOT having my own points of view and relying too much on people like Pronman?  Now I'm being TOO individualistic in my assessments and should fall in line with LGW?  Which is it?

The reason why center is a bigger issue than defense, even before the draft, is because we have one good center in the NHL (Larkin), and one good prospect (Veleno).  Whereas we had a ton of high quality defensive prospects, even before the draft.  Hronek, Cholo, McIsaac, Lindstrom, Kaski, and Regula were all on the team already.  So I was less concerned with our defensive depth. 

You need twice as many high end defensemen (top 4) than you do high end centers (top 2). Also, we have one more established high end center (Larkin) than we do established high end defensemen (0). I'm high on (Seider), Hronek Cholowski and McIsaac, but there's still no guarantee any of them will be legit top pair defensemen, let alone number one defensemen. Lindstrom, Kaski and Regula may or may not even be regular NHLers. As a prospect I'd put Veleno ahead of all of those players, with the exception of maybe Hronek.

Prior to this draft, our center depth could use a shot in the arm, but no more than our defense in my opinion.

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Trading back only works if you're convinced the player will still be there.  If Yzerman thought Seider would still be there, then that means he (and the other GMs in between) didn't have Seider ranked as highly as some other players.  Not sure what's hard to follow about this.

I think you're the one not following here... You pretty much reiterated what I just said, minus one key point (question)... Do you really think there were players available at 6 that Yzerman and co thought were better than Seider, but picked the lesser player anyway?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Didn't you just criticize me for NOT having my own points of view and relying too much on people like Pronman?  Now I'm being TOO individualistic in my assessments and should fall in line with LGW?  Which is it?

The reason why center is a bigger issue than defense, even before the draft, is because we have one good center in the NHL (Larkin), and one good prospect (Veleno).  Whereas we had a ton of high quality defensive prospects, even before the draft.  Hronek, Cholo, McIsaac, Lindstrom, Kaski, and Regula were all on the team already.  So I was less concerned with our defensive depth. 

Your narrative: 

LGWs: Oh my god I love this

Kip: Well, if you guys like it, I hate it now.  

Joining a community to be anti-community. ProFOUND

Edited by The 91 of Ryans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You need twice as many high end defensemen (top 4) than you do high end centers (top 2). Also, we have one more established high end center (Larkin) than we do established high end defensemen (0). I'm high on (Seider), Hronek Cholowski and McIsaac, but there's still no guarantee any of them will be legit top pair defensemen, let alone number one defensemen. Lindstrom, Kaski and Regula may or may not even be regular NHLers. As a prospect I'd put Veleno ahead of all of those players, with the exception of maybe Hronek.

Prior to this draft, our center depth could use a shot in the arm, but no more than our defense in my opinion.

Ok.  Your assessment  isn't what was being discussed here. 

91 criticized me for thinking out center depth was more important than our defensemen.  I was simply stating that having two decent centers in your entire organization, one of whom was still playing Canadian Junior Hockey a few months ago is a pretty shallow talent pool.  Conversely our defense is deeper, but also more proven. Hronek just had a hell of a rookie season, and murdered the World Championships.  Cholowski was good in the NHL, and very good in the AHL.  McIsaac was the best defenseman in the Q (comparable to Veleno at center). Lindstrom played big minutes on a championship team in one of Europe's toughest leagues.  And Kaski was the best defenseman in another of Europe's toughest leagues. 

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Your narrative: 

LGWs: Oh my god I love this

Kip: Well, if you guys like it, I hate it now.  

Joining a community to be anti-community. ProFOUND

At what point did my saying "Don't put too much stock in the Traverse City Prospects Tournament" become "I hate Seider" in your mind?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I've already made clear that I'm not  that interested in watching Mortiz Seider, Joe Veleno, and Filip Zadina beat up on 5th round picks and undrafted camp invitees. 

That's fine. I enjoy watching Mortiz Seider, Joe Veleno, and Filip Zadina beat up on other teams' top prospects. Just know that we know these games mean very little in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't make it any less enjoyable to watch, or fun to hype these players.

Seider is going to be an elite number one defenseman. Better than Josi and Hedman combined.
Veleno is going to be one of the best 2nd line centers in the league. As good as Larkin is now.
Zadina is going to be an elite top line sniper. Better than Kucherov.
Pearson is going to be the best bottom six center in the league. Better than peak Helm (according to Babcock)...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

That's fine. I enjoy watching Mortiz Seider, Joe Veleno, and Filip Zadina beat up on other teams' top prospects. Just know that we know these games mean very little in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't make it any less enjoyable to watch, or fun to hype these players.

Seider is going to be an elite number one defenseman. Better than Josi and Hedman combined.
Veleno is going to be one of the best 2nd line centers in the league. As good as Larkin is now.
Zadina is going to be an elite top line sniper. Better than Kucherov.
Pearson is going to be the best bottom six center in the league. Better than peak Helm (according to Babcock)...

Go ahead, nobody is stopping you.  Matter of fact, I didn't address you or 91 at all.  You both responded to discussions I was having with other people. So I'm not sure where you're getting this "Kip is busting our balls" attitude from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

That's fine. I enjoy watching Mortiz Seider, Joe Veleno, and Filip Zadina beat up on other teams' top prospects. Just know that we know these games mean very little in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't make it any less enjoyable to watch, or fun to hype these players.

Seider is going to be an elite number one defenseman. Better than Josi and Hedman combined.
Veleno is going to be one of the best 2nd line centers in the league. As good as Larkin is now.
Zadina is going to be an elite top line sniper. Better than Kucherov.
Pearson is going to be the best bottom six center in the league. Better than peak Helm (according to Babcock)...

Personlly, I hated watching Seider measure up to lesser competition like Kirby Dach. It was very discouraging. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now