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Dabura

2020 Draft Thread

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46 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Fair point. Good call. I haven't been watching the standings much this season. Last I checked, the Oilers were out of the playoffs.

I'd absolutely consider shopping the pick. At the very least, I'd put the feelers out. Yzerman wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't at least consider potential returns.

So, in that sense, I agree with kip. The opportunity to draft a Lafreniere is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity...and so is the opportunity to trade him. A GM could, in theory, turn that one pick into something incredible. And it's certainly fun to think about what that return might look like. But even if I'm 100% down with trading the pick for the 2nd overall pick and a mid-round 1st and a 2nd and a good young roster player/prospect...I doubt I can actually get that deal done.

"You could absolutely rob a GM with the 1st overall pick" is a thought that occurs to every GM every season and it's probably the main reason why the 1st never gets moved.

Yeah, you'd have to consider offers, but like I said, it would have to be a MASSIVE overpayment, like the 2nd overall pick, another top 10 pick in this draft, and a top prospect, for me to consider it.

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12 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I just want us to flaunt Mantha-Veleno-Lafreniere every time we play the Habs. And while their fans envy our all french line, Zadina will fill their net with pucks. 

Mantha and Lafreniere are going to be third line wingers? 

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4 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Lafreniere, while not at that McDavid level, is in the same conversation.

 

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Like @marcaractac said, Lafreniere may not be on the same level of Crosby and McDavid

Lafreniere is absolutely Crosby/McDavid level

Grow some nuts and just say it nerds

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I mean, they don't have to be flaunted as a line. Just having 3 french Canadians of that calibre will be enough to rot Montreal's s***, and I'm all here for it. 

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

Lafreniere is absolutely Crosby/McDavid level

Grow some nuts and just say it nerds

He's certainly the closest thing since. If we win the lottery, I hope he does hit those highs. 

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23 hours ago, kipwinger said:

This case I'm making is dumb and boring?

But you agree with it in principle and it's fun to think about?

I'm just busting your balls, tbh. We're not all that far apart on this issue. I think you're leaning a little too hard into the idea and I feel it's leading to some sloppy reasoning on your part. Do I agree in principle, though? Well, I don't strongly *disagree*. I'm definitely open to the idea of trading the 1st. No good reason why anyone shouldn't be open to it. I just don't think it's a clear-cut no-brainer.

Even if you've got an offer that you and your scouts and your draft team and everyone in the front office are all super excited about, you can't be sure it's the best path forward. Could be a win, could be a loss, could be a bona fide case of each party getting what it wanted and needed. You won't know for a few years after the draft. That's true of anything you do(n't do) in the draft. It's the nature of the beast. Getting Zadina and Veleno and Berggren and McIsaac seemed like a big coup at the time. Fast forward a few years and it's looking like taking Quinn Hughes 7th overall might've been a bigger win.

So...we can look back on a past draft and say, "They could've had Eichel and Ristolainen and Fabbro," but, to me, that isn't particularly meaningful or useful. Maybe you get an Eichel and a Ristolainen and a Fabbro. And maybe that's worth more than McDavid. (Debatable.) But you could just as easily screw it up. I'd say that's the more likely outcome. Yes, three or four kicks at the can is better than one, in theory. But will it work for you? Do you, GM Steve Yzerman, believe in your bones that it will? Tough call.

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43 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I'm just busting your balls, tbh. We're not all that far apart on this issue. I think you're leaning a little too hard into the idea and I feel it's leading to some sloppy reasoning on your part. Do I agree in principle, though? Well, I don't strongly *disagree*. I'm definitely open to the idea of trading the 1st. No good reason why anyone shouldn't be open to it. I just don't think it's a clear-cut no-brainer.

Even if you've got an offer that you and your scouts and your draft team and everyone in the front office are all super excited about, you can't be sure it's the best path forward. Could be a win, could be a loss, could be a bona fide case of each party getting what it wanted and needed. You won't know for a few years after the draft. That's true of anything you do(n't do) in the draft. It's the nature of the beast. Getting Zadina and Veleno and Berggren and McIsaac seemed like a big coup at the time. Fast forward a few years and it's looking like taking Quinn Hughes 7th overall might've been a bigger win.

Fast forward a few more years and it's looking like taking Zadina 6th overall was the bigger win... at least that's what I'm hoping, and don't really see it as that far fetched to be honest...

45 minutes ago, Dabura said:

So...we can look back on a past draft and say, "They could've had Eichel and Ristolainen and Fabbro," but, to me, that isn't particularly meaningful or useful. Maybe you get an Eichel and a Ristolainen and a Fabbro. And maybe that's worth more than McDavid. (Debatable.) But you could just as easily screw it up. I'd say that's the more likely outcome. Yes, three or four kicks at the can is better than one, in theory. But will it work for you? Do you, GM Steve Yzerman, believe in your bones that it will? Tough call.

I would have taken McDavid over that package back then, and I still would today.

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The other half of that is finding a willing buyer.  A quick look through the recent past shows 1st overalls are rarely traded to begin with, and when they are have generally tended to be traded with another asset (2nd rounder, player, etc) for something like a top 5 pick +/- 3rd rounder or middle-tier player, which isn’t the haul we are necessarily talking about here.  I don’t think GMs as a whole are as dumb as armchair GMs believe.  Trades don’t happen because we want them to.

Edited by Echolalia

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22 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Fast forward a few more years and it's looking like taking Zadina 6th overall was the bigger win... at least that's what I'm hoping, and don't really see it as that far fetched to be honest...

I would have taken McDavid over that package back then, and I still would today.

Yup, I agree with all of this.

22 hours ago, Echolalia said:

The other half of that is finding a willing buyer.  A quick look through the recent past shows 1st overalls are rarely traded to begin with, and when they are have generally tended to be traded with another asset (2nd rounder, player, etc) for something like a top 5 pick +/- 3rd rounder or middle-tier player, which isn’t the haul we are necessarily talking about here.  I don’t think GMs as a whole are as dumb as armchair GMs believe.  Trades don’t happen because we want them to.

Exactly. The argument for why GM A should try to fleece GM B is also an argument for why GM B should be extremely wary.

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22 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Fast forward a few more years and it's looking like taking Zadina 6th overall was the bigger win... at least that's what I'm hoping, and don't really see it as that far fetched to be honest...

I would have taken McDavid over that package back then, and I still would today.

We will always look back on that draft and regret what might have been... thanks to Quinn Hughes among others.

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1 hour ago, mackel said:

We will always look back on that draft and regret what might have been... thanks to Quinn Hughes among others.

Really? I think we’ll way more regret the 2017 draft and passing on necas,foote,brannstrom,valimaki 

10 minutes ago, mackel said:

I've seen nothing thus far that indicates otherwise.  

Your just being ridiculous 

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33 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Really? I think we’ll way more regret the 2017 draft and passing on necas,foote,brannstrom,valimaki 

Your just being ridiculous 

2012-13 Naul Yakupov...  

G-A-PTS       +/-

17-14-31       -4

 

You guys are getting way to excited about Zadina's short term success*  

*success in this case is looking like a top 9 forward who plays sheltered minutes.

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2 hours ago, mackel said:

We will always look back on that draft and regret what might have been... thanks to Quinn Hughes among others.

Who else?

8 minutes ago, mackel said:

2012-13 Naul Yakupov...  

G-A-PTS       +/-

17-14-31       -4

 

You guys are getting way to excited about Zadina's short term success*  

*success in this case is looking like a top 9 forward who plays sheltered minutes.

If so, you're just as guilty in the other direction. 

Edited by Wheelchairsuperhero

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"Zadina's playing pretty well. Looks like things are finally clicking for him. If he's scoring at this kind of clip as a just-turned-20-year-old on a garbage team that can't score goals to save its life, it's safe to say he's going to be a really solid player. The jury's out, but I'm optimistic."

"Wrong. Here are Nail Yakupov's stats for the 2012-13 season. (I have not provided them here, because reasons.) Also, Hughes is scoring at an astonishing 0.698 PPG clip. Zadina, on the other hand, is scoring at a miserable 0.514 PPG clip. And Hughes isn't the only one who's making Zadina look like the bum he is. CHECK THIS OUT. Look at all those superior players we could've taken instead of Zadina. smdh."

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1 hour ago, mackel said:

2012-13 Naul Yakupov...  

G-A-PTS       +/-

17-14-31       -4

 

You guys are getting way to excited about Zadina's short term success*  

*success in this case is looking like a top 9 forward who plays sheltered minutes.

 2017 will be a much bigger regret trust me 

Your getting way ahead of  yourself calling a player a bust because he didnt start the nhl at what 18? He just literally turned 20 a few months ago , id say thats a good start for a 6th overall pick ... i don’t know why your bringing the oilers into this (who have failed miserably and couldnt develop players for 15 years) 

From what i can see your just calling him a bust after 20 games for s***s and giggles 

1 minute ago, Dabura said:

"Zadina's playing pretty well. Looks like things are finally clicking for him. If he's scoring at this kind of clip as a just-turned-20-year-old on a garbage team that can't score goals to save its life, it's safe to say he's going to be a really solid player. The jury's out, but I'm optimistic."

"Wrong. Here are Nail Yakupov's stats for the 2012-13 season. (I have not provided them here, because reasons.) Also, Hughes is scoring at an astonishing 0.698 PPG clip. Zadina, on the other hand, is scoring at a miserable 0.514 PPG clip. And Hughes isn't the only one who's making Zadina look like the bum he is. CHECK THIS OUT. Look at all those superior players we could've taken instead of Zadina. smdh."

I wouldnt even pay attention , he’s just starting s*** for the fun of it

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5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Still haven't watched Zadina play eh?

Sure have been watching and I've seen nothing especially impressive but I'm not a fan boy with rose colored glasses. 

6 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

 2017 will be a much bigger regret trust me 

Your getting way ahead of  yourself calling a player a bust because he didnt start the nhl at what 18? He just literally turned 20 a few months ago , id say thats a good start for a 6th overall pick ... i don’t know why your bringing the oilers into this (who have failed miserably and couldnt develop players for 15 years) 

From what i can see your just calling him a bust after 20 games for s***s and giggles 

I wouldnt even pay attention , he’s just starting s*** for the fun of it

Correction I was responding to "$***"

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1 hour ago, mackel said:

Sure have been watching and I've seen nothing especially impressive but I'm not a fan boy with rose colored glasses. 

Correction I was responding to "$***"

#6 overall draft picks since 2000: Scott Hartnell, Scott Upshall, Mikko Koivu, Milan Michalek, Al Montoya, Gilbert Brule, Derek Brassard, Sam Gagner, Nikita Filatov, Oliver Ekman-Larson, Brett Connolly, Mika Zibanejad, Hampus Lindholm, Sean Monahan, Jake Virtanen, Pavel Zacha, Matthew Tkachuk, Cody Glass, Filip Zadina, Moritz Seider.

There's only one, maybe 2 guys on that list that list who would ever be considered "elite". Several of them had long, unspectacular NHL careers. Some never panned out at all. A couple are too young to yet evaluate. But, even if Zadina turns into the player even you have admitted he will be, he wouldn't even be close to a bust considering the company he has at that draft spot.

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12 hours ago, mackel said:

Sure have been watching and I've seen nothing especially impressive but I'm not a fan boy with rose colored glasses. 

I'm not sure what games you've been watching but he's been one of the Wings few bright spots this season. For a team that struggles to produce offense, he's been one of the best most games. The raw stats, as well as advanced stats support my "fan boy" view with my "rose colored glasses". There's absolutely nothing that supports your irrational extreme bias against Zadina...

Zadina just turned 20 years old, is over half a point per game on a historically bad team. He's absolutely a top six winger at this point, and will likely become a legitimate top line winger in the future.

Keep hating on one of our best young building blocks though. Soon you will have lost all credibility with your dumb "Zadina is a bust" rants... 

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He’s played 35 games in the NHL.  I’m not sure how anyone can label his career anything at this point.  Maybe it’s only a “hot streak”, maybe it’s a stepping stone into something else.  But at least for now he’s been good for the team.  Since Dec 1st, the only one on the team who has scored more points than Zadina is Larkin.  So keep riding that and see if he continues to grow.

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The Athletic: Pronman's Mid Season Draft Prospect Rankings

Too long didn't pay? Well here's the top 5

1. Lafreniere - nothing new

2. Byfield - best tool kit in the draft 

3. Stutzle - complete winger who many scouts think can convert to, and be a #1 C in the NHL due to skill and defensive play

4. Rossi - exciting skill set and projects as a #1 C in the NHL despite his size

5. Askarov - special goalie prospect 

We're in good shape here buddos

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7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

The Athletic: Pronman's Mid Season Draft Prospect Rankings

Too long didn't pay? Well here's the top 5

1. Lafreniere - nothing new

2. Byfield - best tool kit in the draft 

3. Stutzle - complete winger who many scouts think can convert to, and be a #1 C in the NHL due to skill and defensive play

4. Rossi - exciting skill set and projects as a #1 C in the NHL despite his size

5. Askarov - special goalie prospect 

We're in good shape here buddos

I agree with the top 3. I'd prefer one of the Swedish bros over Rossi / Askarov though.

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