2020 Draft Thread

[marcaractac 3,963]

12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree with the top 3. I'd prefer one of the Swedish bros over Rossi / Askarov though.

In the end, I believe we're getting either Lafreniere, Byfield, or Stutzle

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

16 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree with the top 3. I'd prefer one of the Swedish bros over Rossi / Askarov though.

Not me. The more I hear about Rossi, the more I like him. And I don't think his size would scare Yzerman away.

It warms my heart to know that skill, compete, and IQ are high on Yzerman and Draper's list of desired qualities and that they give zero sheeets about size. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

21 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

In the end, I believe we're getting either Lafreniere, Byfield, or Stutzle

Not if we pick in the most likely slot: 4th

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Not me. The more I hear about Rossi, the more I like him. And I don't think his size would scare Yzerman away.

It warms my heart to know that skill, compete, and IQ are high on Yzerman and Draper's list of desired qualities and that they give zero sheeets about size. 

These traits should definitely be high on any scouts / GM's list, but you can't pretend that size is a complete non-factor. Every attribute, including size should be considered when evaluating, and eventually picking one of these players.

If Rossi truly is the best player available when Yzerman makes his pick, I'm sure he'll consider him, but I don't know that he will be.

5 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Not if we pick in the most likely slot: 4th

I could easily see Stutzle dropping outside of the top 3, and I think one of the Swedish kids, or maybe even Drysdale could easily go 3rd overall.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

These traits should definitely be high on any scouts / GM's list, but you can't pretend that size is a complete non-factor. Every attribute, including size should be considered when evaluating, and eventually picking one of these players.

If Rossi truly is the best player available when Yzerman makes his pick, I'm sure he'll consider him, but I don't know that he will be.

I could easily see Stutzle dropping outside of the top 3, and I think one of the Swedish kids, or maybe even Drysdale could easily go 3rd overall.

No kidding. But scouts and GMs prioritize. Some scouts (see: Tyler Wright) lose their minds over prospects with size (Case Study 1: Rasmussen vs Necas  - Case Study 2: the entire rest of that same goddddam draft). I'm glad Yzerman/Draper seem to have other priorities and that Yzerman has shown in Tampa that he's not shy about taking smaller players with skill. 

This is mostly moot though because every single player in the top 10 other than Byfield and Askarov seem to plateau at 6 feet, 180 lbs. Even Lafreniere's only 6'1" 

[marcaractac 3,963]

50 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Not if we pick in the most likely slot: 4th

I think there is a pretty decent chance Stutzle is still available at 4. Not a guarantee, but pretty decent odds. 

IF those three are gone, I'd hope we take Drysdale or Rossi.

Edited January 29, 2020 by marcaractac

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

7 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I think there is a pretty decent chance Stutzle is still available at 4. Not a guarantee, but pretty decent odds. 

IF those three are gone, I'd hope we take Drysdale or Rossi.

I'd be cool with this, although Drysdale wouldn't be my first choice at 4th. This team needs a skilled center (or Lafreniere) baaaaaaaaaad. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I'd be cool with this, although Drysdale wouldn't be my first choice at 4th. This team needs a skilled center (or Lafreniere) baaaaaaaaaad. 

True, but we also need more than just Hronek and Seider on defense. We're still lacking that high-end skill dman. We add one more legit future top 4 dman, and life would be good in that position for many years. In the end, we'll suck next year as well. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

No kidding. But scouts and GMs prioritize. Some scouts (see: Tyler Wright) lose their minds over prospects with size (Case Study 1: Rasmussen vs Necas  - Case Study 2: the entire rest of that same goddddam draft). I'm glad Yzerman/Draper seem to have other priorities and that Yzerman has shown in Tampa that he's not shy about taking smaller players with skill. 

This is mostly moot though because every single player in the top 10 other than Byfield and Askarov seem to plateau at 6 feet, 180 lbs. Even Lafreniere's only 6'1" 

Oh, I completely agree that you should never draft a player, or not draft a player because of size, but I'm just saying that it does, and should matter. I think the things you stated above should be first priority, and then things like size and handedness should be considered in a possible tie breaker. I don't know enough about any of these guys yet, outside of the top 2-3, but I would love to add one of the highly skilled right-handed Swedish wingers, if we don't luck out in the draft lottery.

This team desperately needs to add some high end right-handed wingers. In saying that, I would never draft purely for need, but if Yzerman felt Rossi and Raymond were pretty similar across the board, I'd want him to take the righty...

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

4 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

True, but we also need more than just Hronek and Seider on defense. We're still lacking that high-end skill dman. We add one more legit future top 4 dman, and life would be good in that position for many years. In the end, we'll suck next year as well. 

Exactly. We'll be picking top four again. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Oh, I completely agree that you should never draft a player, or not draft a player because of size, but I'm just saying that it does, and should matter. I think the things you stated above should be first priority, and then things like size and handedness should be considered in a possible tie breaker. I don't know enough about any of these guys yet, outside of the top 2-3, but I would love to add one of the highly skilled right-handed Swedish wingers, if we don't luck out in the draft lottery.

This team desperately needs to add some high end right-handed wingers. In saying that, I would never draft purely for need, but if Yzerman felt Rossi and Raymond were pretty similar across the board, I'd want him to take the righty...

Only winger I'd be willing to draft with that first pick this summer is Lafreniere. Whether it's picks 3 or 4 I feel there will be centers or dmen at least as good as any available winger. Those positions will always win out. Stutzle, Rossie, Drysdale should be (and likely will be) targeted over Raymond or Holtz.

Sure it would be lovely if we could safely predict Ras or Veleno to be that legit 2nd line center. Problem is, we can't. And in the end, when the team is competitive again, it'll be a hell of a lot easier to trade for wingers than it would be for centres or dmen. 

9 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Exactly. We'll be picking top four again. 

I hope so. I do feel we'll leapfrog 2 or 3 teams in the standings next year *cough* LA, SJ, ANA *cough*. If the Sens can hang with em this year, the Wings can next year. 

[TLGTrico 622]

I'm already preparing myself for picking 4th.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

Here is HockeyProspects.com top 10:

 

...honestly if we fall to 4th and get Perfetti or gamble on Askarov, so be it.  Watching Drysdale for D and also Rossi for another C as well. Obviously we ALL want #1, but I think anyone taken top 4 or 5 is going to help this team tremendously.  Besides, we all know Uncle Gary is going to give #1 to Ottawa anyhow, hell they could get #1 and #2!!! Imagine that!!!

I ran the tankathon 7 times before Detroit stayed at #1, within those 7 times, LA won it 3 times, Chicago jumped 10 spots and Nashville jumped 12 spots one time each and on my 9th run, Ottawa indeed got #1 and #2 (via SJ.)

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by LeftWinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Only winger I'd be willing to draft with that first pick this summer is Lafreniere. Whether it's picks 3 or 4 I feel there will be centers or dmen at least as good as any available winger. Those positions will always win out. Stutzle, Rossie, Drysdale should be (and likely will be) targeted over Raymond or Holtz.

Sure it would be lovely if we could safely predict Ras or Veleno to be that legit 2nd line center. Problem is, we can't. And in the end, when the team is competitive again, it'll be a hell of a lot easier to trade for wingers than it would be for centres or dmen. 

I disagree. Always take the best player available, regardless of position. We need elite wingers, just as much as we need elite centers. It's also not a guarantee that Stutzle or Rossi will be centers at the NHL level. I think it's likely Stutzle will, despite him playing mostly on the wing this season, but I think it's unlikely Rossi will, despite him playing mostly center this season... Even if Rossi does become a center, will he be more of an impact player down the middle, than Raymond can be on the wing? Maybe, but it won't be because of the position he plays.

I think a high-end winger like Raymond can elevate a center like Veleno or Rasmussen, just as much as a high-end center like Rossi, can elevate a winger like Zadina or Fabbri. We need elite players to compliment some of the high end players we already have in the organization, regardless of position.

[marcaractac 3,963]

8 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I disagree. Always take the best player available, regardless of position. We need elite wingers, just as much as we need elite centers. It's also not a guarantee that Stutzle or Rossi will be centers at the NHL level. I think it's likely Stutzle will, despite him playing mostly on the wing this season, but I think it's unlikely Rossi will, despite him playing mostly center this season... Even if Rossi does become a center, will he be more of an impact player down the middle, than Raymond can be on the wing? Maybe, but it won't be because of the position he plays.

I think a high-end winger like Raymond can elevate a center like Veleno or Rasmussen, just as much as a high-end center like Rossi, can elevate a winger like Zadina or Fabbri. We need elite players to compliment some of the high end players we already have in the organization, regardless of position.

Like I said, I don't see guys like Raymond or Holtz being any better than Drysdale, Rossi, or Stutzle. They are all pretty even as far as rankings go. Nobody stands out. In such a case, position should absolutely be the deal breaker.

The teams with elite depth down the middle keep on contending (Pens, Bruins). The teams who depend on elite wingers do not (Winnipeg). Pens and Bruins have their down years, but they always reload and contend again because of the elite depth down the middle. It's insane to say that isn't any more important than wingers. Every GM would disagree with it. 

If a winger in a draft is absolutely the best available? Absolutely, take it. That's why I'd take Lafreniere over anyone. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by marcaractac

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, marcaractac said:

Like I said, I don't see guys like Raymond or Holtz being any better than Drysdale, Rossi, or Stutzle.

The teams with elite depth down the middle keep on contending (Pens, Bruins). The teams who depend on elite wingers do not (Winnipeg). Pens and Bruins have their down years, but they always reload and contend again because of the elite depth down the middle. It's insane to say that isn't any more important than wingers. Every GM would disagree with it. 

If a winger in a draft is absolutely the best available? Absolutely, take it. That's why I'd take Lafreniere over anyone. 

Again, best player available, implying that maybe Raymond is better or translates better to the NHL. I have no idea, because like I said, I don't know enough about any of these guys yet. And like I said, I think Stutzle should be ahead of all of those guys at 3rd overall, and don't necessarily think Rossi is a lock to be a center at the NHL level.

St. Louis won the Cup last year with a high end center, O'Reilly, which coincidentally is the type of player I can see Larkin molding into in the next few years. After him, their next best player is Tarasenko, a high end winger. Washington won the Cup the previous year, led by their elite winger, Ovechkin. I think Kuznetsov is a hell of a center, but I also think Ovechkin elevates him quite a bit.

I'm not saying we don't need an elite center, I'm saying take the best player available regardless of position.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

I go with Perfetti then Stutzle in that order.  But, we all know how drafts can go. Maybe someone else becomes the best NHL player from that draft.

But does Steve gamble on the G or take Drysdale in the top 4?

Edited January 29, 2020 by LeftWinger

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Again, best player available, implying that maybe Raymond is better or translates better to the NHL. I have no idea, because like I said, I don't know enough about any of these guys yet. And like I said, I think Stutzle should be ahead of all of those guys at 3rd overall, and don't necessarily think Rossi is a lock to be a center at the NHL level.

St. Louis won the Cup last year with a high end center, O'Reilly, which coincidentally is the type of player I can see Larkin molding into in the next few years. After him, their next best player is Tarasenko, a high end winger. Washington won the Cup the previous year, led by their elite winger, Ovechkin. I think Kuznetsov is a hell of a center, but I also think Ovechkin elevates him quite a bit.

I'm not saying we don't need an elite center, I'm saying take the best player available regardless of position.

I don't know why you're making the best player available argument when I already agreed with it. After Lafreniere and Byfield, the jury is out on the rankings. Nobody agrees, because those players are close. If they are that close, it's wise to draft center or d. Teams don't give up high end centers or dmen. A trade can be made for a good right-handed winger literally any time. 

Caps had Kuznetzov and Backstrom down the middle. Blues also had Pietrangelo leading the blueline. I'm not saying a winger can't be the best/second best player on a team. I'm just saying the teams who are elite down the middle tend to keep that contender window open far longer than anyone else. 

Tarasenko got hurt long term. Blues are still trucking along comfortably. If it was O'Reilly who got hurt, their season would be a lot tougher. Again, not a knock on Tarasenko. It's just easier to get help on wing than down the middle.

Pens lost Crosby for a long time. They stayed an elite team because they have another top center in Malkin. 

[F.Michael 4,590]

48 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Here is HockeyProspects.com top 10:

...honestly if we fall to 4th and get Perfetti or gamble on Askarov, so be it.  Watching Drysdale for D and also Rossi for another C as well. Obviously we ALL want #1, but I think anyone taken top 4 or 5 is going to help this team tremendously.  Besides, we all know Uncle Gary is going to give #1 to Ottawa anyhow, hell they could get #1 and #2!!! Imagine that!!!

I ran the tankathon 7 times before Detroit stayed at #1, within those 7 times, LA won it 3 times, Chicago jumped 10 spots and Nashville jumped 12 spots one time each and on my 9th run, Ottawa indeed got #1 and #2 (via SJ.)

 

I'm just convinced in the fact that we'll drop 2, or 3 spots no matter what...Then Buffalo/Chicago/Toronto/etc will jump several spots.

Stutzle is climbing in the ranks...Me thinks Grand Master Y will nab him if the Wings don't pick 1st, or 2nd overall.

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I don't know why you're making the best player available argument when I already agreed with it. After Lafreniere and Byfield, the jury is out on the rankings. Nobody agrees, because those players are close. If they are that close, it's wise to draft center or d. Teams don't give up high end centers or dmen. A trade can be made for a good right-handed winger literally any time. 

Sure, if they are that close, you take the center, IF you think that center will translate well to the NHL. I personally don't. Marner played quite a bit of center, along with Dvorak in London, but has been a winger at the NHL level. In saying that, if Rossi becomes an elite level winger like Marner, no one will be complaining. The thing is, I think Raymond could have that sort of upside as well, but is also a right-handed shot... But again, if Yzerman is confident that Rossi will be an NHL center, I'm not as worried about it.

Regarding the bold, again I disagree. It's obviously extremely hard to acquire elite centers or defensemen in their prime, but I don't think it's that much easier to acquire elite (right-handed) wingers in their prime... If we could trade for one literally any time, we would have by now. Teams aren't giving up a Forsberg, Pastrnak, Nylander, Marner, Boeser, Debrincat, etc. unless you're willing to pay a premium.

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure, if they are that close, you take the center, IF you think that center will translate well to the NHL. I personally don't. Marner played quite a bit of center, along with Dvorak in London, but has been a winger at the NHL level. In saying that, if Rossi becomes an elite level winger like Marner, no one will be complaining. The thing is, I think Raymond could have that sort of upside as well, but is also a right-handed shot... But again, if Yzerman is confident that Rossi will be an NHL center, I'm not as worried about it.

Regarding the bold, again I disagree. It's obviously extremely hard to acquire elite centers or defensemen in their prime, but I don't think it's that much easier to acquire elite (right-handed) wingers in their prime... If we could trade for one literally any time, we would have by now. Teams aren't giving up a Forsberg, Pastrnak, Nylander, Marner, Boeser, Debrincat, etc. unless you're willing to pay a premium.

Of course Marner doesn't play center. He is on a team with Mathews and Tavares. Good wingers are available in UFA all the time. Because teams spend their cap on centers and defense. How many wingers has Malkin and Crosby been through at this point? It's a much easier position to replace than down the middle. It isn't even a debate. 

Nobody is saying elite wingers aren't worth anything. They just aren't worth as much as their center and defense counterparts. Once again, we get that #1 pick, I take the winger in Laffreniere without hesitation. He is above and beyond any other player in the draft. The same absolutely cannot be said for Raymond at #3 or 4. 

If we get Rossi and he ends up as an elite winger, so be it. It's far easier to go from center to wing than vice-versa. Between Rossi, Veleno, and Ras, you have a SIGNIFICANT increase of a legit top 6 center.

For the record, I'd take Drysdale with Laffy, Byfield, and Stutzle off the board.  

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Of course Marner doesn't play center. He is on a team with Mathews and Tavares. Good wingers are available in UFA all the time. Because teams spend their cap on centers and defense. How many wingers has Malkin and Crosby been through at this point? It's a much easier position to replace than down the middle. It isn't even a debate. 

Nobody is saying elite wingers aren't worth anything. They just aren't worth as much as their center and defense counterparts. Once again, we get that #1 pick, I take the winger in Laffreniere without hesitation. He is above and beyond any other player in the draft. The same absolutely cannot be said for Raymond at #3 or 4. 

If we get Rossi and he ends up as an elite winger, so be it. It's far easier to go from center to wing than vice-versa. Between Rossi, Veleno, and Ras, you have a SIGNIFICANT increase of a legit top 6 center.

For the record, I'd take Drysdale with Laffy, Byfield, and Stutzle off the board.  

"Good" wingers are available in free agency, but how many elite wingers make it to free agency? Very few. The same is the case for centers and defensemen. We're not talking about "good" players. If we're drafting top 4, we should be hoping for an elite player.

I'm not disputing that centers are more valuable than wingers in the NHL, but in my opinion you are overstating just how much more valuable they are. If Crosby or McDavid were wingers they would be just as valuable to their team, as they are as centers. It just so happens that most elite forwards usually play center at some point in their career, and usually continue that in the NHL.

I'm obviously not saying that Raymond is anywhere close to Lafreniere. I'm saying I think he's close to Rossi, and between the two, I'd prefer Raymond.

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

"Good" wingers are available in free agency, but how many elite wingers make it to free agency? Very few. The same is the case for centers and defensemen. We're not talking about "good" players. If we're drafting top 4, we should be hoping for an elite player.

I'm not disputing that centers are more valuable than wingers in the NHL, but in my opinion you are overstating just how much more valuable they are. If Crosby or McDavid were wingers they would be just as valuable to their team, as they are as centers. It just so happens that most elite forwards usually play center at some point in their career, and usually continue that in the NHL.

I'm obviously not saying that Raymond is anywhere close to Lafreniere. I'm saying I think he's close to Rossi, and between the two, I'd prefer Raymond.

I don't get why you're making a case for Crosby or McDavid as wingers when I already said I'd choose Lafreniere, a winger, in a heartbeat. 

Teams with elite centers win more often than those who depend on elite wingers. I'd take a team of elite centers and good wingers over a team with good centers and elite wingers any day. Obviously having an elite winger would be great, just not at the expense of a comparable center. 

If you think Raymond is the BPA at #3 or 4 that's fine. That isn't the point I am making. The point I am making is if all is about equal, it's dumb to take a winger over a center or dman. I don;t understand why you'd argue such a thing when you say s*** like "If all is equal, I'd take the right-handed player."

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I don't get why you're making a case for Crosby or McDavid as wingers when I already said I'd choose Lafreniere, a winger, in a heartbeat. 

You're saying that the position that Crosby plays is what makes him so valuable. He can (and has) elevate(d) his wingers his entire career. I'm saying that it's not the position, it's the player. He could (and would) have elevated his centers just as much if he were a winger. Elite players elevate good players, regardless of position.

Don't mistake any of this in me saying that wingers are just as valuable as centers, because I think centers are more valuable, just not as much as you, and many others seem to think.

An elite winger could elevate Larkin into a 90 point, elite center. An elite center could elevate Zadina into a 40 goal, elite winger. I want the best player available, regardless of position.

17 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Teams with elite centers win more often than those who depend on elite wingers. I'd take a team of elite centers and good wingers over a team with good centers and elite wingers any day. Obviously having an elite winger would be great, just not at the expense of a comparable center. 

If you think Raymond is the BPA at #3 or 4 that's fine. That isn't the point I am making. The point I am making is if all is about equal, it's dumb to take a winger over a center or dman. I don;t understand why you'd argue such a thing when you say s*** like "If all is equal, I'd take the right-handed player."

Because again, I'm not convinced that Rossi will translate to an NHL center.

If two players are perceived to have similar skill sets, and project to play the same position (which could be the case), I'd take the right-handed winger, over the left-handed winger.

[marcaractac 3,963]

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You're saying that the position that Crosby plays is what makes him so valuable. He can (and has) elevate(d) his wingers his entire career. I'm saying that it's not the position, it's the player. He could (and would) have elevated his centers just as much if he were a winger. Elite players elevate good players, regardless of position.

Don't mistake any of this in me saying that wingers are just as valuable as centers, because I think centers are more valuable, just not as much as you, and many others seem to think.

An elite winger could elevate Larkin into a 90 point, elite center. An elite center could elevate Zadina into a 40 goal, elite winger. I want the best player available, regardless of position.

Because again, I'm not convinced that Rossi will translate to an NHL center.

If two players are perceived to have similar skill sets, and project to play the same position (which could be the case), I'd take the right-handed winger, over the left-handed winger.

It's the combination of elite talent and position that makes Crosby what he is. Not just the talent. 

As for Rossi, I already said I'd take Drysdale over him, as I think he'll be a better dman than Rossi will center. Rossi is merely an example of taking the center over the winger if all else is equal. 

For me, Rossi over Raymond is a given. Both are about equal as far as rankings go, but Rossi IS a center. Even if he plays wing in the NHL because of center depth, guess what? In the case of injuries, Rossi can play center. Raymond can't. 

The Pens would be a much different team if Crosby was a winger. Would they still be a contender? Sure. But that second line suddenly gets far easier to play against doesn't it?