Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 31 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: We had at center, an aging Zetterberg, Nielsen, Larkin, Sheahan, Glendening, Helm, with no top end C prospects in the pipeline.... The only defensemen most people would have considered at 9th overall, was Foote. Brannstrom and Valimaki weren't even in the conversation for most, and I'd still bet on Rasmussen being better than all three. I really wanted Vilardi, and now after finally getting healthy, he looks like he might be the better player. In hindsight, Necas would have probably been the right pick there. It's not crap. It's reality. Most teams that draft well, do not draft by position. They have a list and they stick to hit, regardless of "need". Because need next season could be completely different in 2-3 seasons when that player is finally ready to make the jump. So, it's okay to look at your pipeline and realize you're weak at defense, and take a defenseman, but it's not okay to look at your pipeline and realize you're lacking size, and take a monster center 9th overall? And yes, I do think it's a coincidence that 3 out of those 4 first picks last year were defensemen. I think Yzerman truly believed Seider was the best pick at 4th overall. Same goes for Tuomisto at 35, and Johansson at 60. That pretty much sums up what I was going to say. No need for me to respond. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 1 hour ago, krsmith17 said: I misread, but yeah, no s***... All of those players were obviously the top player's on the Wings' board, but only two of them were definitively the right selection. Well I guess, even for Larkin, there was Pastrnak... That's my point. It just so happened that in each of those drafts, when it was Holland's turn to pick in the 1st round, the BPA on HIS draft board was a forward. And that's who he picked. The idea that Holland was deficient in knowing what his team's needs were and that affected how he drafted is nonsense. That's what I was objecting to. Also, I thought I read somewhere that Hughes was going to be Holland's pick. Don't recall where. And to save myself the hassle of looking for it, I will just go with it being Bouchard. Either way, it was going to be a Dman. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, krsmith17 said: We had at center, an aging Zetterberg, Nielsen, Larkin, Sheahan, Glendening, Helm, with no top end C prospects in the pipeline.... The only defensemen most people would have considered at 9th overall, was Foote. Brannstrom and Valimaki weren't even in the conversation for most, and I'd still bet on Rasmussen being better than all three. I really wanted Vilardi, and now after finally getting healthy, he looks like he might be the better player. In hindsight, Necas would have probably been the right pick there. It's not crap. It's reality. Most teams that draft well, do not draft by position. They have a list and they stick to hit, regardless of "need". Because need next season could be completely different in 2-3 seasons when that player is finally ready to make the jump. So, it's okay to look at your pipeline and realize you're weak at defense, and take a defenseman, but it's not okay to look at your pipeline and realize you're lacking size, and take a monster center 9th overall? And yes, I do think it's a coincidence that 3 out of those 4 first picks last year were defensemen. I think Yzerman truly believed Seider was the best pick at 4th overall. Same goes for Tuomisto at 35, and Johansson at 60. You must not really remember that well if you think foote was the only dman in that ballpark , valimaki was in midteens ... so what? If we draft 9 we cant look at someone 6 spots later and think thats who we should target? You’d bet rasmussen being better than alll 3 still ? Ha , hope your right but i dont think thats the case dude if there’s a few players you really like and your dieing for d prospects lets say , it happens where you look at “the list” and skip a few spots ... say l.a were drafting later this yr and they had perfetti rossi drysdale and they we’re all there with where doughty is and their d pipeline you think they would be like well , looks like perfetti’s the guy without even thinking about drysdale for a second? They dont follow name for name and go by order for every single pick our d pipeline had been s*** for like a decade and never resolved , we only stuck around for so long cause lidstrom hadnt retired yet ... a monster 3c wasnt a desperate need well i guess you believe alot in coincidences Edited October 2, 2020 by nyqvististhefuture Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 660 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 11 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Rasmussen was not the top player left on the board at 9 in his draft. I'd say he was firmly behind at least a couple others at the time, and probably even more in hindsight. Everything we've all heard and read is that Bouchard would have been Holland's pick, if Zadina hadn't fallen, not Hughes. I seem to recall some of this also, which really sheds (negative) light on our drafting dept. By then they were certainly living on past glory of late round gems like Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 7 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said: You must not really remember that well if you think foote was the only dman in that ballpark , valimaki was in midteens ... so what? If we draft 9 we cant look at someone 6 spots later and think thats who we should target? You’d bet rasmussen being better than alll 3 still ? Ha , hope your right but i dont think thats the case I'm aware where Brannstrom and Valimaki went in the draft, but they could have been down another 10+ slots on the Wings' board. For all we know, there was no defenseman close for the Wings, and they were between Rasmussen and Suzuki. Maybe they felt Ras was the better pick for what they needed. In hindsight, it's looking like that may be a whiff, but let's give it another couple years, to see what Ras can do in a full NHL season. 7 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said: dude if there’s a few players you really like and your dieing for d prospects lets say , it happens where you look at “the list” and skip a few spots ... say l.a were drafting later this yr and they had perfetti rossi drysdale and they we’re all there with where doughty is and their d pipeline you think they would be like well , looks like perfetti’s the guy without even thinking about drysdale for a second? They dont follow name for name and go by order for every single pick At the top of the draft, especially a top 10 pick, but even in the later 1st and 2nd rounds, I don't think teams ever draft based on perceived positional "need". I think they have a list and stick to it. In the later rounds, where it's more of a crapshoot, teams may stray from their list a little, but there's so much more than positional need that goes into every pick. The thing is, us as fans may value Drysdale and Rossi (or whoever) very similarly, but general managers and directors of amateur scouting, likely lean heavily one way or the other. This is their job. They spend countless hours every single day, breaking down every aspect of their game. They also go through a thorough interview process with each one of these kids. I highly doubt LA would value Drysdale and Rossi equally, and go with the defenseman, just because Doughty is getting older, and they need to find a replacement... That, in my opinion, is when teams make mistakes on the draft floor. Trust your scouts, and if you can't trust your scouts, hire new scouts... 8 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said: our d pipeline had been s*** for like a decade and never resolved , we only stuck around for so long cause lidstrom hadnt retired yet ... a monster 3c wasnt a desperate need well i guess you believe alot in coincidences At the time, we had a young Ouellet and Sproul, both taken in the 2nd round. In hindsight, a lot of us fans, and probably even management were higher on them then we ever should have been. You don't think defense is as big a need now because we have Tuomisto and Johansson in the pipe. Not that I think they are, but they could be the next Ouellet and Sproul for all we know. Even Seider. I think he will be a stud, but what if something happens in his development, and he tops out as a shutdown bottom 4 defenseman? Point is, you never know what your team need will be from one year to the next. There are also trades that could happen to fill a positional need. Draft best player available, and if you have a surplus at one position, trade from a position of strength to fill a hole. I highly doubt management made the Rasmussen pick, thinking "we need a monster 3rd line center". I'm sure they seen him more as a top six center. Whether or not that was a little too ambitious, is another thing... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 58 minutes ago, mackel said: I seem to recall some of this also, which really sheds (negative) light on our drafting dept. By then they were certainly living on past glory of late round gems like Datsyuk and Zetterberg. It's no secret that Tyler Wright valued size in his draft picks, which is likely why we drafted Rasmussen, as well as a bunch of other less skilled, big bodies in his time here. I'm sure that's also a big reason we were leaning Bouchard over Hughes as well. Although, I fully admit, Bouchard was my guy as well. I wouldn't have believed anyone if they told me Hughes would have this seamless a transition to the NHL, and be near a point per game, 20 year old defenseman... I do fully expect Bouchard to be a beast as well though, and still may be the better overall defenseman in 3-5 years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 55 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: I'm aware where Brannstrom and Valimaki went in the draft, but they could have been down another 10+ slots on the Wings' board. For all we know, there was no defenseman close for the Wings, and they were between Rasmussen and Suzuki. Maybe they felt Ras was the better pick for what they needed. In hindsight, it's looking like that may be a whiff, but let's give it another couple years, to see what Ras can do in a full NHL season. At the top of the draft, especially a top 10 pick, but even in the later 1st and 2nd rounds, I don't think teams ever draft based on perceived positional "need". I think they have a list and stick to it. In the later rounds, where it's more of a crapshoot, teams may stray from their list a little, but there's so much more than positional need that goes into every pick. The thing is, us as fans may value Drysdale and Rossi (or whoever) very similarly, but general managers and directors of amateur scouting, likely lean heavily one way or the other. This is their job. They spend countless hours every single day, breaking down every aspect of their game. They also go through a thorough interview process with each one of these kids. I highly doubt LA would value Drysdale and Rossi equally, and go with the defenseman, just because Doughty is getting older, and they need to find a replacement... That, in my opinion, is when teams make mistakes on the draft floor. Trust your scouts, and if you can't trust your scouts, hire new scouts... At the time, we had a young Ouellet and Sproul, both taken in the 2nd round. In hindsight, a lot of us fans, and probably even management were higher on them then we ever should have been. You don't think defense is as big a need now because we have Tuomisto and Johansson in the pipe. Not that I think they are, but they could be the next Ouellet and Sproul for all we know. Even Seider. I think he will be a stud, but what if something happens in his development, and he tops out as a shutdown bottom 4 defenseman? Point is, you never know what your team need will be from one year to the next. There are also trades that could happen to fill a positional need. Draft best player available, and if you have a surplus at one position, trade from a position of strength to fill a hole. I highly doubt management made the Rasmussen pick, thinking "we need a monster 3rd line center". I'm sure they seen him more as a top six center. Whether or not that was a little too ambitious, is another thing... And for all we know they could have been next or two spots away and someone got a boner at the thought of adding a 6’6 forward . We’ll never know He’s definetly a whiff when you look at where he was picked and what was available , that being said just parking himself in front of the goalie i think he’ll be able to pop 20 Once you start getting outside the first round yes , otherwise why would you need all those people around the table and having a discussion when their pick is up next? At that point yzerman can just sit by himself at a table and doing like bingo and crossing out guys names and just follow the name thats next and go up on his own . No cause when the time comes they have discussions and making sure on who the pick will be, and yes im sure organizational needs are brought up in discussions Its not always black and white , scouts can like two prospects equally and have a hard time on deciding who to take until its go time Did i like ouellet etc... ? Sure, but i dont think anyone ever expected any of them to be a true stud top pair dman and outside cholowski we never picked one in the first round , or traded for a young dman with upside before they developed into something no team would ever trade (i recall you being on board with that scenario as well) with our d pipeline now , i dont think its as pressing now cause A- let’s not delude ourselves into thinking we wont be near the bottom next year and be right in the mix to get a top pick in a deep d draft , so we’re not pressed into getting one with our 4th now B- we have hronek and now seider who’ll likely be big minute eater in the 20-25 min range , cant remember the last time we had that C- something about tuomisto screams bust to me but i do recall hakan andersson gloating about albert johansson and other scouts as well when the pick was made and hes just been getting better and better, mcisaac should be an nhler and im sure we’ll get one or two out of the others that will be a pleasant surprise. Can we add a top pairind dman? Sure , i just think we can wait till next draft and we look like we’re headed the right away . And unlike holland yzerman wont waste time and trade for a young dman with upside if the opportunity presents itself Anways back to rasmussen , when your picking in the top 10 you cant f*** it up if your not sure you can invision him as a #1 line guy hes not your pick. Anyways it is what it is , its over and done with hopefully he proves me wrong but im hoping at least hes a ppl specialist like holmstrom was and a solid 3c or wing (all depends on whether veleno fights for 3c if he develop into a top 6 guy) 50 minutes ago, CatBoyRossi said: Rasmussen was a solid pick Meh 1 hour ago, krsmith17 said: It's no secret that Tyler Wright valued size in his draft picks, which is likely why we drafted Rasmussen, as well as a bunch of other less skilled, big bodies in his time here. I'm sure that's also a big reason we were leaning Bouchard over Hughes as well. Although, I fully admit, Bouchard was my guy as well. I wouldn't have believed anyone if they told me Hughes would have this seamless a transition to the NHL, and be near a point per game, 20 year old defenseman... I do fully expect Bouchard to be a beast as well though, and still may be the better overall defenseman in 3-5 years. No secret? Well i didnt know that , thanks for pretty much confirming they likely had a boner when they saw ras Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 2 hours ago, mackel said: I seem to recall some of this also, which really sheds (negative) light on our drafting dept. By then they were certainly living on past glory of late round gems like Datsyuk and Zetterberg. We need to throw hakan andersson some more 1st rounders to select euro scouts of late got us seider,zadina last four drafts north america - cholowski,rasmussen i know who id be trusting with the pick Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,012 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 7 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: We need to throw hakan andersson some more 1st rounders to select euro scouts of late got us seider,zadina last four drafts north america - cholowski,rasmussen i know who id be trusting with the pick Zadina was scouted in North America bruv, Played in the Q, in Halifax. Also, euro scouts didn't get us Seider. That was 100% a bigboy Yzerman pick. So, basically, I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about. 1 mackel reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 27 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: And for all we know they could have been next or two spots away and someone got a boner at the thought of adding a 6’6 forward . We’ll never know Sure. Which is my point. 28 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: Once you start getting outside the first round yes , otherwise why would you need all those people around the table and having a discussion when their pick is up next? At that point yzerman can just sit by himself at a table and doing like bingo and crossing out guys names and just follow the name thats next and go up on his own . No cause when the time comes they have discussions and making sure on who the pick will be, and yes im sure organizational needs are brought up in discussions Again, that was my point. 29 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: Its not always black and white , scouts can like two prospects equally and have a hard time on deciding who to take until its go time Absolutely. However, I doubt "positional need" is any more of a determining factor, than any other attribute. Be it, handedness, size, hockey IQ, skating, shot, passing, hands, work ethic, etc. All factors that get weighed and ultimately decide who will be selected. 32 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: Anways back to rasmussen , when your picking in the top 10 you cant f*** it up if your not sure you can invision him as a #1 line guy hes not your pick. Anyways it is what it is , its over and done with hopefully he proves me wrong but im hoping at least hes a ppl specialist like holmstrom was and a solid 3c or wing (all depends on whether veleno fights for 3c if he develop into a top 6 guy) I agree, but again, I'm sure Holland and his staff had higher hopes for Ras than we ever did, and I would bet Yzerman does as well. I don't think he will be a top six center, buy I don't think it's out of the question either. 34 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: No secret? Well i didnt know that , thanks for pretty much confirming they likely had a boner when they saw ras Yeah, there were a couple interviews with Wright after the draft in which he all but confirmed that they were looking to add size (above all else). It was kind of funny actually how much more he emphasized "size" and "big body" over "skill"... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,012 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, CatBoyRossi said: Just checking and refreshing myself on the scouting staff... the only NA amateur scouts to survive the transition into the Yzerman era at this point are Mark Mullen and Marty Stein. Pretty telling that Yzerman kept the Euro scouts and the Pro scouts. And absolutely decimated the NA amateur scouting staff. Holland's buddies got too comfortable up in there. Pretty sure Nill took all the good ones with him to Dallas. Leaving Kenny to hire Wright and co. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,012 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 1 minute ago, CatBoyRossi said: Joe McDonnell was the big one. He was director of amateur scouting here and is doing that for the stars now. Also Kolb, Leach, and Lites (grandson of the Illitch's). We lost Mike's friggin grandson to Nill... And Lites was the mastermind behind the Fedorov/Klima/Konstantinov defections. That guy and Keith Gave are ******* Detroit sports heroes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akakabuto 1,741 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 16 minutes ago, CatBoyRossi said: Sorry for the Jim Lites tangent yall. But this is the same guy who also publicly said Jamie Benn and Tyler Seguin - his players - were "******* horse s***" in 2018. As of July of this year Lites got "Devellano-ed" and is no longer CEO of the Stars but now Chairman. So basically he has an office in the back of the stadium somewhere where he can play with his old hockey tapes. Amazing how much the talent the 90s Red Wings produced on all levels of the sport. The 90s Red Wings made this league what it is today. 1 nyqvististhefuture reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 3 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Zadina was scouted in North America bruv, Played in the Q, in Halifax. Also, euro scouts didn't get us Seider. That was 100% a bigboy Yzerman pick. So, basically, I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about. True but has the euro genes , same as seider well works out cause i also dont think you have a clue on s*** you talk about , so we should both ignore eachother ? Cool? Cool Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 2 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Absolutely. However, I doubt "positional need" is any more of a determining factor, than any other attribute. Be it, handedness, size, hockey IQ, skating, shot, passing, hands, work ethic, etc. All factors that get weighed and ultimately decide who will be selected. I agree, but again, I'm sure Holland and his staff had higher hopes for Ras than we ever did, and I would bet Yzerman does as well. I don't think he will be a top six center, buy I don't think it's out of the question either. Yeah, there were a couple interviews with Wright after the draft in which he all but confirmed that they were looking to add size (above all else). It was kind of funny actually how much more he emphasized "size" and "big body" over "skill"... Im sure positional need comes into conversation when its time to pick and they see like 2-3 guys equaly im sure holland had higher hopes for rasmussen when selected,yzerman wasnt here so has no loyalty if he can move him for something he thinks is better he wont hesitate Yup so take away the 6’6 frame and im sure there’s loads of players ahead of him on the famous list , anyways its over and done with now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 2 hours ago, CatBoyRossi said: What's interesting is Marty Stein (who Yzerman kept on staff) is responsible for the WHL, BCHL, and AJHL. Therefore we can logically attribute that his input was heavy on the following picks going back to 2006: Gylander Barton Rasmussen Zablocki Cholowski Turgeon Pope Wheaton McNulty Tvrdon Nedomlel Macek Ferraro Callahan Pyett In fact the only successful player this guy has ever drafted is Darren Helm it appears to me... Not sure what leagues Mark Mullen is responsible for. God i had forgotten about so many guys on that list lmao , awful Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, CatBoyRossi said: Imagine being a scout with the Red Wings since 96. Someone asks you, "Cool who are you responsible for drafting?" and all you can say is Darren Helm. Id just slowly walk away backwards 1 CatBoyRossi reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,012 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 37 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: True but has the euro genes , same as seider Agrees 38 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: well works out cause i also dont think you have a clue on s*** you talk about , so we should both ignore eachother ? Cool? Cool Then says this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 11 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Agrees Then says this. Idiot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said: Im sure positional need comes into conversation when its time to pick and they see like 2-3 guys equaly Yes. This is exactly what I said. I'm sure positional need comes into play in the later rounds, but so do countless other factors... 2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said: im sure holland had higher hopes for rasmussen when selected,yzerman wasnt here so has no loyalty if he can move him for something he thinks is better he wont hesitate Sure, Yzerman has no "loyalty" to Rasmussen, but that doesn't mean he sees him as expendable either... 3 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said: Yup so take away the 6’6 frame and im sure there’s loads of players ahead of him on the famous list , anyways its over and done with now Why would you take away his 6'6" frame? Like it or not, size is an attribute, and one a lot of general managers covet. Of course the skill needs to be there, but add size to elite skill, and you have a bonafide top line forward (Mantha) / top two defenseman (Seider). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AtlantaHotWings 921 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 3 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said: Id just slowly walk away backwards Or change subject to Where you want to go for lunch? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted October 2, 2020 2 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Yes. This is exactly what I said. I'm sure positional need comes into play in the later rounds, but so do countless other factors... Sure, Yzerman has no "loyalty" to Rasmussen, but that doesn't mean he sees him as expendable either... Why would you take away his 6'6" frame? Like it or not, size is an attribute, and one a lot of general managers covet. Of course the skill needs to be there, but add size to elite skill, and you have a bonafide top line forward (Mantha) / top two defenseman (Seider). I actually meant they came into in the earlier rounds , later on you just take the 5’7 skilled kid if you like them and hope they grow and develop, but anyways ... and it goes without saying if its a matthews/mcdavid type in the early picks available positional needs take a hike Obviously he wont just trade rasmussen away for fun , for the right deal he would without a second thought Yes its an attribute But i wouldnt want to break a tie with a couple guys i also like due to size only .... anyways like ive said it is what it is and i hope he proves me wrong and is capable being closer to a 30 goal guy than 20 . We’ll see 1 hour ago, AtlantaHotWings said: Or change subject to Where you want to go for lunch? Or just be like ... forget about me, so what have you done? Then if what he did is way better than yours you walk back slowly and go to lunch alone 1 AtlantaHotWings reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 3, 2020 2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said: Obviously he wont just trade rasmussen away for fun , for the right deal he would without a second thought That could be said about literally any player in the league though... "He won't just trade him for the sake of trading him, but if the right deal comes along, he could be traded"... Nothing ground breaking there... 2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said: Yes its an attribute But i wouldnt want to break a tie with a couple guys i also like due to size only .... Due to size only? Did I say that? Would you want to "break a tie" based on position only? How about handedness only? None of these alone are legitimate reasons to pick a player, but all should be weighed in the decision making process... By the way, two players are never exactly equal across the board, exact same size, same level of skating, shooting, passing, stick handling, puck control, work ethic, hockey IQ, etc. The only difference is one is a winger and one is a center, so let's take the center... That NEVER happens. EVER... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted October 3, 2020 Sorry if this has already been posted, but its McKenzie's Final Draft Ranking Show. Not 100% sure if those in the US can watch. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oldtimehockey97 3 Report post Posted October 3, 2020 For what it’s worth here’s my list: 1) Byfield or Stutzle if either falls 2) Raymond 3) Rossi i don’t think we take Drysdale due to taking Seider last year and the elite D available next year. I really want Perfetti to be elite but can’t help but think he won’t pan out. I’d also consider Holtz but we already have Zadina. Sanderson would be solid but to high a pick at 4. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites