General Rebuild Discussion Thread

[marcaractac 3,962]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

Why though? I don't even think Hughes was high on our list (probably should have been). If Zadina didn't drop to us, we would have likely taken Bouchard.

Also, if we had drafted Hughes and Vancouver had drafted Zadina, I'd be willing to bet Zadina would be tearing it up on a line with Eliasson, and Hughes would be playing (likely very well) in Grand Rapids.

I'm not going to spend too much energy being pissed about not drafting Hughes over Zadina when we don't even know how it will play out yet. If we're going to be pissed about passing over a player that Vancouver ended up drafting, it's Svechnikov instead of Boeser...

All this goes to show is that Holland has been getting bent over in the draft for a few years

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Why though? I don't even think Hughes was high on our list (probably should have been). If Zadina didn't drop to us, we would have likely taken Bouchard.

Also, if we had drafted Hughes and Vancouver had drafted Zadina, I'd be willing to bet Zadina would be tearing it up on a line with Eliasson, and Hughes would be playing (likely very well) in Grand Rapids.

I'm not going to spend too much energy being pissed about not drafting Hughes over Zadina when we don't even know how it will play out yet. If we're going to be pissed about passing over a player that Vancouver ended up drafting, it's Svechnikov instead of Boeser...

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

4 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

at least he's got both hands where I can see 'em.......

[kipwinger 8,521]

4 hours ago, marcaractac said:

All this goes to show is that Holland has been getting bent over in the draft for a few years

Don't agree.  Since 2013 Holland and his team drafted the following:

1st line center (Larkin)

Two top line wingers (Mantha, Bert)

A top four defenseman (Hronek)

Several "wait and see" guys with top end potential (Ras, Zadina)

Several guys with middle 6 potential (Cholo, McIsaac, VEleno, Berggren, Svech)

And a boat load of depth guys. 

I don't think any other team has drafted as well in that period of time. Particularly given our draft slots in each year.  IMO the disreputable state of this team is more likely attributed to the 8 years (or so) before that when we only had about 3 first round picks and whiffed on all of them (Smith, Kindl, Sheahan).  Aside from Nyquist and Tatar we basically didn't draft or develop any higher end talent (and no talent at key positions) until we landed Larkin.  We suck today, in part, because of the poor drafting of 8 or 10 years ago not the drafting of the last hand full of years which has been quite good.

[marcaractac 3,962]

12 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Don't agree.  Since 2013 Holland and his team drafted the following:

1st line center (Larkin)

Two top line wingers (Mantha, Bert)

A top four defenseman (Hronek)

Several "wait and see" guys with top end potential (Ras, Zadina)

Several guys with middle 6 potential (Cholo, McIsaac, VEleno, Berggren, Svech)

And a boat load of depth guys. 

I don't think any other team has drafted as well in that period of time. Particularly given our draft slots in each year.  IMO the disreputable state of this team is more likely attributed to the 8 years (or so) before that when we only had about 3 first round picks and whiffed on all of them (Smith, Kindl, Sheahan).  Aside from Nyquist and Tatar we basically didn't draft or develop any higher end talent (and no talent at key positions) until we landed Larkin.  We suck today, in part, because of the poor drafting of 8 or 10 years ago not the drafting of the last hand full of years which has been quite good.

Vancouver says hello

[kipwinger 8,521]

6 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Vancouver says hello

Not really.  Here's a quick head to head.  I'm not super familiar with VAN's farm club so I limited it to guys already on the NHL roster and/or 1st round picks. 

 

2013: Horvat (9th overall) vs. Mantha (20th) and Bertuzzi (58th).  Despite worst draft position we got the best player (Mantha) and the better quantity.  Give VAN some credit for getting a top center, but we still win especially when considering the draft position.

2014: Virtanen (6th) and Shinkaruk (23rd) vs. Larkin (15th) and Ehn (106th).  This is a win for Detroit, obviously. Despite drafting twice in the first round VAN got a player they want to trade and one that is stuck in the AHL.

2015: Boeser (23rd) vs. Svech (19th).  Win for VAN.  Easily.

2016: Olli Juolevi (5th) vs. Cholowski (20th) and Hronek (53rd).  This is laughably lopsided.  Win Detroit.

2017: Pettersson (5th) vs. Rasmussen (9th). Win VAN, but look at the draft position.  We couldn't have taken Pettersson and nobody drafted after him is as good as he is.

2018: Hughes (7th) vs. Zadina (6th): Win VAN, no caveats. 

2019: Podkolzin (10th) vs. Seider (6th). This one is too early to tell. 

Conclusions:

• In these seven years we outdrafted VAN in three despite having worse draft position (2013, 2014, 2016),
• they outdrafted us in three but had better draft position in one of those (2017). 
• Twice (2015 and 2018) did they get a better player despite worse draft position.
• Additionally, since 2013 six players selected by Detroit are already playing in the NHL (5 for VAN)
• Another three (Svech, Ras, Zadina) are likely to be in the NHL full time, (none for VAN).  This is excluding Seider and Podkolzin who will both likely play in the NHL soon enough. 
• Including Sieder and Podkolzin that's 10 NHL level players for Detroit, and 6 for Vancouver since 2013.  Both teams will obviously have depth players from these years as well, I just left them out because A) they're depth players, and B) I'm not super familiar with VAN's farm club.

Edited November 6, 2019 by kipwinger

[marcaractac 3,962]

7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

2015: Boeser (5th) vs. Svech (19th).  Win for VAN.  Easily. Though, again, look where they drafted.

Fake news

Edited November 6, 2019 by marcaractac

[kipwinger 8,521]

3 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Fake news

Yup I got that Boeser's draft position wrong, don't know what I was looking at there.  Edited the earlier post to reflect his actual draft position.  Overall we still drafted better than Vancouver though.

Edited November 6, 2019 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Not really.  Here's a quick head to head.  I'm not super familiar with VAN's farm club so I limited it to guys already on the NHL roster and/or 1st round picks. 

 

2013: Horvat (9th overall) vs. Mantha (20th) and Bertuzzi (58th).  Despite worst draft position we got the best player (Mantha) and the better quantity.  Give VAN some credit for getting a top center, but we still win especially when considering the draft position.

2014: Virtanen (6th) and Shinkaruk (23rd) vs. Larkin (15th) and Ehn (106th).  This is a win for Detroit, obviously. Despite drafting twice in the first round VAN got a player they want to trade and one that is stuck in the AHL.

2015: Boeser (23rd) vs. Svech (19th).  Win for VAN.  Easily.

2016: Olli Juolevi (5th) vs. Cholowski (20th) and Hronek (53rd).  This is laughably lopsided.  Win Detroit.

2017: Pettersson (5th) vs. Rasmussen (9th). Win VAN, but look at the draft position.  We couldn't have taken Pettersson and nobody drafted after him is as good as he is.

2018: Hughes (7th) vs. Zadina (6th): Win VAN, no caveats. 

2019: Podkolzin (10th) vs. Seider (6th). This one is too early to tell. 

Conclusions:

• In these seven years we outdrafted VAN in three despite having worse draft position (2013, 2014, 2016),
• they outdrafted us in three but had better draft position in one of those (2017). 
• Twice (2015 and 2018) did they get a better player despite worse draft position.
• Additionally, since 2013 six players selected by Detroit are already playing in the NHL (5 for VAN)
• Another three (Svech, Ras, Zadina) are likely to be in the NHL full time, (none for VAN).  This is excluding Seider and Podkolzin who will both likely play in the NHL soon enough. 
• Including Sieder and Podkolzin that's 10 NHL level players for Detroit, and 6 for Vancouver since 2013.  Both teams will obviously have depth players from these years as well, I just left them out because A) they're depth players, and B) I'm not super familiar with VAN's farm club.

Shinkaruk was drafted in 2013 by Van.

Draft position complications aside...

2013: They pull Horvat. We pull Mantha, Bertuzzi, and Janmark. Win Red Wings.

2014: They pull Virtanen, McCann, Demko, Tryamkin, and Forsling. We pull Larkin and Ehn. Despite Virtanen disappointing and Tryamkin going back to Russia, this is a pretty amazing draft for Van. We got the obvious gem in Larkin, but Demko is looking like a Vezina caliber goalie already. I'm gonna give Van the win on this one.

2015: They pull Boeser. We pull Svech. Easy win to Van at this point.

2016: Things start getting hard here. They pull Juolevi, we pull Cholowski and Hronek. Juolevi isn't in the league yet, but he looks damn good, and will probs be pretty swell. The fact that we got two Dmen already in the NHL though I think puts us over the top. Win Red Wings.

2017: They pull Pettersson. We pull Ras. Easy win Van.

2018: I have my own harsh bias here, but I'll try to be fair. I think there's a distinct possibility that Hughes alone may outweigh both Zadina and Veleno combined. Jett Woo is pretty decent as well. But I like the rest of our draft outside of the first round a lot more than theirs. Berggren, McIsaac, Regula, among others. Win Red Wings.

2019: Podkolzin and Hoglander were good picks, but I'll go full homer on this one. Loved this draft year for us. Seider is god tier. Lots of other good players for us in their as well. Win Red Wings.

I score it 4-3 Red Wings. Through this period though I think Van pulled more elite players than we did. And I'm resting a lot of faith on our last two drafts, which is almost certainly Detroit bias on my part. This could easily flip 5-2 in favor of Van in a few years time.

 

[kipwinger 8,521]

13 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Shinkaruk was drafted in 2013 by Van.

Draft position complications aside...

2013: They pull Horvat. We pull Mantha, Bertuzzi, and Janmark. Win Red Wings.

2014: They pull Virtanen, McCann, Demko, Tryamkin, and Forsling. We pull Larkin and Ehn. Despite Virtanen disappointing and Tryamkin going back to Russia, this is a pretty amazing draft for Van. We got the obvious gem in Larkin, but Demko is looking like a Vezina caliber goalie already. I'm gonna give Van the win on this one.

2015: They pull Boeser. We pull Svech. Easy win to Van at this point.

2016: Things start getting hard here. They pull Juolevi, we pull Cholowski and Hronek. Juolevi isn't in the league yet, but he looks damn good, and will probs be pretty swell. The fact that we got two Dmen already in the NHL though I think puts us over the top. Win Red Wings.

2017: They pull Pettersson. We pull Ras. Easy win Van.

2018: I have my own harsh bias here, but I'll try to be fair. I think there's a distinct possibility that Hughes alone may outweigh both Zadina and Veleno combined. Jett Woo is pretty decent as well. But I like the rest of our draft outside of the first round a lot more than theirs. Berggren, McIsaac, Regula, among others. Win Red Wings.

2019: Podkolzin and Hoglander were good picks, but I'll go full homer on this one. Loved this draft year for us. Seider is god tier. Lots of other good players for us in their as well. Win Red Wings.

I score it 4-3 Red Wings. Through this period though I think Van pulled more elite players than we did. And I'm resting a lot of faith on our last two drafts, which is almost certainly Detroit bias on my part. This could easily flip 5-2 in favor of Van in a few years time.

 

Either way, the overall point is that Detroit has general drafted pretty good the last handful of years. At the very least, our drafting during that span hasn't been anything like a disadvantage. However the fact that we basically don't have a single decent player over the age of 26 might better explain our current predicament. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

16 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Either way, the overall point is that Detroit has general drafted pretty good the last handful of years. At the very least, our drafting during that span hasn't been anything like a disadvantage. However the fact that we basically don't have a single decent player over the age of 26 might better explain our current predicament. 

I agree.

I think you could even say from 2000-2012 was our downfall. We drafted nothing but depth players in that 12 year time frame. Franzen, Kronwall, Nyquist, Tatar, and Howard were/are all good, but not centerpiece players.

All-in-all pretty symptomatic of a dynasty team on top of he league. The fall was inevitable. Datsyuk and Zetterberg were a bizarre adrenaline shot for a team that probably should have started descending around 04/05.

 

[Dabura 12,207]

https://mynhltraderumors.com/nhl-rumors-and-notes-mathew-barzal-haydn-fleury-and-ranger-musings/2019/11/09/

Quote

Sara Civian of The Athletic:  Unfortunately, Fleury appears the odd defenseman out at some point for Carolina. Fleury has been healthy scratched for four straight games. What can Carolina do? They can phase him back in but he is more than a number seven defenseman. Carolina trading him is possible. What kind of value does one get in return?

The final scenario involves trading Trevor van Riemsdyk to give Fleury a true chance. That may ultimately prove to be the case.

LOOK MAN I'M JUST SAIYAN

[krsmith17 7,191]

Christoffer Ehn for Haydn Fleury...

Make it happen Yzerman!

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Christoffer Ehn for Haydn Fleury...

Make it happen Yzerman!

DLR for Fabbri.

Ehn for Fleury.

Helm for Puljujarvi.

Abby for Honka.

Kuffner for Kunin.

Let's f***ing go, boys.

[krsmith17 7,191]

13 minutes ago, Dabura said:

DLR for Fabbri.

Ehn for Fleury.

Helm for Puljujarvi.

Abby for Honka.

Kuffner for Kunin.

Let's f***ing go, boys.

Regula for Perlini...

[Dabura 12,207]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Regula for Perlini...

Knew I was forgetting someone. Regula would never get us Perlini.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, Dabura said:

Knew I was forgetting someone. Regula would never get us Perlini.

Regula sounds like a pasta, Perlini sounds like a sandwich. Not sure I would ever trade pasta for a sandwich.

[Dabura 12,207]

4 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Regula sounds like a pasta, Perlini sounds like a sandwich. Not sure I would ever trade pasta for a sandwich.

No but srsly, why is everyone in this organization Italian?

[Dabura 12,207]

Khan says some of our contracts are "not moveable":

https://www.mlive.com/redwings/2019/11/red-wings-steve-yzerman-seeks-value-in-low-risk-trades.html

Khan is a mouthpiece for the organization, so if you were hoping for any of our albatross contracts to get moved this season, you should adjust your expectations accordingly.

[krsmith17 7,191]

21 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Khan says some of our contracts are "not moveable":

https://www.mlive.com/redwings/2019/11/red-wings-steve-yzerman-seeks-value-in-low-risk-trades.html

Khan is a mouthpiece for the organization, so if you were hoping for any of our albatross contracts to get moved this season, you should adjust your expectations accordingly.

Milan Lucic was traded (one-for-one) for James Neal. There is no such thing an "unmovable" player / contract... They do not exist. If Yzerman wants to trade Nielsen (by far our worst player / contract), he can and will.

[Dabura 12,207]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Milan Lucic was traded (one-for-one) for James Neal. There is no such thing an "unmovable" player / contract... They do not exist. If Yzerman wants to trade Nielsen (by far our worst player / contract), he can and will.

Just sayin'. You can usually tell how things are gonna go by reading what Khan and to a lesser extent HSJ have to say.

[krsmith17 7,191]

55 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Just sayin'. You can usually tell how things are gonna go by reading what Khan and to a lesser extent HSJ have to say.

I hear ya. I just think it's dumb for anyone to still believe that so-and-so player is untradeable, because of terrible contract, when we've seen, and continue to see the most awful contracts get moved. Not directed at you. Someone as "in-the-know" as Khan, shouldn't be tweeting out such bulls***. And if that is in fact coming from anyone in the Red Wings organization (I'm not sure I buy it), I really question how much they're paying attention...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 11/10/2019 at 10:51 AM, krsmith17 said:

Milan Lucic was traded (one-for-one) for James Neal. There is no such thing an "unmovable" player / contract... They do not exist. If Yzerman wants to trade Nielsen (by far our worst player / contract), he can and will.

Lucic (a problem) traded for Neal (another problem)

Sure the contracts moved, but all they did was swap one problem for another (I realize Neal has done well since). We could swap Nielsen for Loui Eriksson or Bobby Ryan or something, but we'd just be swapping one overpaid bad player for another overpaid bad player and hoping Eriksson/Ryan do better in Detroit. If that's what you'd like to see ok, but it's not unloading the problem which is the real goal.

[Dabura 12,207]

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We could swap Nielsen for Loui Eriksson or Bobby Ryan or something, but

DONE! SOLD! NO TAKE BACKS!