General Rebuild Discussion Thread

[F.Michael 4,590]

Capt Obvious statement here...While I know little to nothing about Lefreniere - just looking at his #'s - I'm surprised to see him racking up quite a bit more assists than goals this year (so far), and last year too.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, F.Michael said:

Capt Obvious statement here...While I know little to nothing about Lefreniere - just looking at his #'s - I'm surprised to see him racking up quite a bit more assists than goals this year (so far), and last year too.

He's as good a setup guy as he is a finisher. Probably better, tbh. That's one of the things that makes him so dangerous.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Dabura

[Dabura 12,207]

Here's a (slightly old) look at Lafreniere:

[F.Michael 4,590]

4 minutes ago, Dabura said:

He's as good a setup guy as he is a finisher. Probably better, tbh. That's one of the things that makes him so dangerous.

His rookie season for Rimouski he tallied 42 goals, and 38 assists - sorta what I'm thinking of when you hear 'goal scoring winger'...Since then his assists have skyrocketed.

2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Here's a (slightly old) look at Lafreniere:

We really need to win the damn lottery.

[Dabura 12,207]

4 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

His rookie season for Rimouski he tallied 42 goals, and 38 assists - sorta what I'm thinking of when you hear 'goal scoring winger'...Since then his assists have skyrocketed.

He could probably score more goals if he wanted to. I guess he's just bored/sadistic and feels he has to find increasingly creative ways to torment opposing defenses.

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I'm confused, you said we should take "BPA" and that we need "elite" talent.  There's an elite goalie who's likely to be the BPA when we pick, so we should take him right? Or are you suggesting that Askarov could be the BPA and we shouldn't take him anyway because of his position? Because that sounds a lot like what I'm advocating with Byfield.

Also, there's no reason to think Lafreniere is anything more than your average top of the draft player.  The same things you're saying about Lafreniere now were said by others, more knowledgeable than you, about guys like Dahlin.  They were wrong, and are wrong, routinely when they do this.  Ray Ferraro, for instance, said of Dahlin, “The kid is a prodigy, He’s the Auston Matthews or Connor McDavid of defensemen if we can compare him to the last couple of drafts.” Just a quick google search will provide reems and reems of such comments.  So when you say, Lafreniere is "on a different level" I don't know upon what rational basis you've made that conclusion.

I'm suggesting that goalies are voodoo, and that they're way too hard to predict. I believe that Askarov's bust potential is MUCH higher than anyone else I'd rank in the top 10. That's why I personally wouldn't draft him with a top 5 pick. Like I said, I wouldn't take a goalie in the top half of the 1st round. I'm not suggesting we should take a player of need, the way you are with Byfield. If anything it's the opposite. I acknowledge that goaltending is a major need, but would rather acquire one later in the draft, or via trade / free agency...

Nope, there's nothing at all to suggest that Lafreniere is anything more than your average top of the draft player... Nothing at all... 

Why are you hung up on Dahlin? He's almost a point per game defenseman as a 19 year old. We shouldn't be looking at how good players are on draft day, but how good they will be in their prime, but a defensemen playing his sophomore season, is what he is apparently... Maybe people did overhype Dahlin, but also... maybe they didn't. He still could be a generational defenseman, and better than Makar and Hughes and any other defenseman in the league in a couple years.

I think in a few years we'll be looking back on the 2020 draft, and Lafreniere will be by far the best player of the draft. He'll be the top winger in the league, and it won't be close. I can't say I think Byfield will be the top center in the league. Maybe not even top 10. Even if that were to be the case in 2023, you'd probably say, "well a top 15 center in the league, is more valuable than the top winger in the league"... And that's where I think our biggest difference in opinion comes from. Elite wingers are no less important than centers. They can do everything centers can do on the ice, except take draws, and even the best faceoffs guys in the league are basically a 50/50 toss up on any draw. Wingers can drive play, shut down top players, be setup guys or trigger men. This gets back to why I believe Lafreniere could, if he wanted to, convert to center. Not saying he will or should, but he most definitely could. Not getting into that again though...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Filip Larsson was just moved to IR for the Toledo Walleye

Besides the disappointing news that he's injured just 10 games into his first season, he also hasn't been very good.

7 games stint in GR: 0.843 sv% and 4.01 GAA
***Demoted to ECHL***
3 game stint in TOL: 0.886 sv% and 3.04 GAA

Not exactly a good sign.

With the acquisition of Pickard and Comrie for this season and another after, it signals to me that Yzerman isn't bringing on any of our goalie prospects anytime soon.

Goalie depth:

Howard: Expiring
Bernier: 1 more season
Comrie: 1 more season
Pickard: 1 more season
Larsson: 2 more seasons
Fulcher: 2 more seasons

Own rights:

Keith Petruzzelli, almost 21, ECAC, playing well
Jesper Eliasson, almost 20, Allsvenskan, playing average
Victor Brattstrom, almost 23, Alllsvenskan, playing well
Carter Gylander, 18, AJHL, playing well (Yzer-pick)

I'm not particularly excited for any of those roster goalies or any of those un-signed players at this point.

The only goalie rotating out is Howard, so it makes sense for us to find a replacement Starter. Running Bernier/Comrie/Pickard next year probably massively shoots this team in the foot.

Our best options so far at UFA:

Robin Lehner ------ will be 29 -- 0.924 sv% -- 2.89 GAA -- $5 mil AAV (probs getting re-signed)
Jacob Markstrom -- will be 30 -- 0.915 sv% -- 2.68 GAA -- $3.6 mil AAV (probs getting re-signed)
Thomas Greiss ---- will be 34 -- 0.924 sv% -- 2.39 GAA -- $3.3 mill AAV (probs available)
Jaroslav Halak ----- will be 35 -- 0.928 sv% -- 2.26 GAA -- $2.7 mil AAV (probs available)
Anton Khudobin --- will be 34 -- 0.927 sv% -- 2.28 GAA -- $2.5 mill AAV (probs available)
Pavel Francouz ---- will be 30 -- 0.932 sv% -- 2.26 GAA -- $0.9 mill AAV (probs getting re-signed)
Brayden Holtby ---- will be 31 -- 0.909 sv% -- 2.82 GAA -- $6.1 mill AAV (probs available)

After these players we may as well re-sign Howard. Maybe we get a younger version of old Howard...

Plenty of other teams will be looking for backups for their young starters, so it's not even certain we will get an honest shot at signing a stop gap like Greiss, Halak, or Khudobin... unless they're willing to take money to suck. And I'm not entirely certain Yzerman even wants to throw money at a 34 year old stop gap. If we actually get an honest shot at Lehner, Markstrom, Francouz, or Holtby we will probably have to throw term at them. With those goalies none is probably going to be our savior, but they should be serviceable for the next 3-5 years. Meaning we have to have one of our 4 unsigned goalies work out, or we need to find a goalie in the next 2-3 drafts... For reference, our good friend Holland was unable to find a goalie in the draft from 2011 to 2015, and no goalies drafted from 2015 to 2018 have worked out yet. That's no success in 5-8 drafts.

So basically what I'm saying is... our outlook in net is about as bleak as it possibly can be, and this is a pitch for Yaroslav Askarov. He's likely going to be the highest drafted goalie since Marc-Andre Fleury in 2003, and would immediately shore up the entire position with one pick. Yzerman can sign his stop gap, and then we can reasonably expect to see Askarov moving on to the roster in 1-3 seasons... That's a nice timeline considering our situation.

In all likelihood we will be drafting at the #4 spot (50.6% chance). Askarov is probably going somewhere top10. I don't think it's an unreasonable pick at #4 if Yzerman likes him.

Suddenly our depth would look something like this:

UFA Starter -- NHL
Bernier ------- NHL
Askarov ------ NHL / AHL
Comrie ------- NHL / AHL
Pickard ------- AHL
Larsson ------ AHL / ECHL
Fulcher ------- ECHL

That outlook appears much nicer for the future than random UFA starter + more B/C grade goalie prospects. That's an uncertain future with us being at best average in net for the next 3+ years at minimum.

Search your feeling... you know it is true... we must draft the 2nd coming of Tretiak

Edited December 18, 2019 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Comrie the saviour claimed lmao, lets see what other prospect stevie gives away now for some other project that wont work out 

bernier/howard tandem lives on

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Comrie the saviour claimed lmao, lets see what other prospect stevie gives away now for some other project that wont work out 

bernier/howard tandem lives on

I wish we could have kept Comrie, but Saarijarvi wasn't really considered a prospect anymore. He was never going to be a Red Wing, and likely wouldn't have been re-signed. He had no value, much like Comrie apparently...

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 hour ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Comrie the saviour claimed lmao, lets see what other prospect stevie gives away now for some other project that wont work out 

bernier/howard tandem lives on

Dude. Where's your off switch? Saarijarvi was just clogging the pipes. He's a total bust. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

14 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Dude. Where's your off switch? Saarijarvi was just clogging the pipes. He's a total bust. 

**Yzerman throws chicken bones from lunch in the trash**

NyqFuture: "What're you doing?!?!? Giving up chicken bones for nothing??? Goddamn moron!"

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

**Yzerman throws chicken bones from lunch in the trash**

NyqFuture: "What're you doing?!?!? Giving up chicken bones for nothing??? Goddamn moron!"

I can make stock from chicken bones. They would be more useful to me than Ville Saarijarvi

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

24 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

**Yzerman throws chicken bones from lunch in the trash**

NyqFuture: "What're you doing?!?!? Giving up chicken bones for nothing??? Goddamn moron!"

Except Saarijarvi wasnt chicken bones. Even depth AHL defenseman have some value. He could have been traded for a late round pick, which would have been more useful to a rebuilding team than an AHL goalie for a few days.

You couldnt have acquired Comrie with "chicken bones from lunch". He obviously had value which is why SY got something in return for him.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I wish we could have kept Comrie, but Saarijarvi wasn't really considered a prospect anymore. He was never going to be a Red Wing, and likely wouldn't have been re-signed. He had no value, much like Comrie apparently...

No your right saarijarvi had no future here but at the end of day we did end up giving him away for nothing , i’d argue the same can be said for regula who i think will be an nhler regardles of whether or not hes a star dman

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

18 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Except Saarijarvi wasnt chicken bones. Even depth AHL defenseman have some value. He could have been traded for a late round pick, which would have been more useful to a rebuilding team than an AHL goalie for a few days.

You couldnt have acquired Comrie with "chicken bones from lunch". He obviously had value which is why SY got something in return for him.

Except Yzerman doesn't need another late round pick. He needed a backup goalie. Now he doesn't. No harm done. 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Dude. Where's your off switch? Saarijarvi was just clogging the pipes. He's a total bust. 

Never thought he would have a future here so i dont really care , just saying we gave him away for nothing but then again i never thought comrie would amount to much so again .... dont care

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Except Saarijarvi wasnt chicken bones.

He pretty much is exactly that though... Arizona were going to lose Comrie for nothing, so they decided to take *something* for him. Saarijarvi had (has) zero value. Chayka could have waived him, and Yzerman would have claimed him the next day. Yzerman literally threw Chayka a (chicken) bone (Saarijarvi).

15 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Even depth AHL defenseman have some value. He could have been traded for a late round pick, which would have been more useful to a rebuilding team than an AHL goalie for a few days.

Do they though? If Yzerman were to shop Saarijarvi, I don't think a single team would have given up a 7th round pick for him. He's a dime a dozen defenseman. Barely AHL quality.

20 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

You couldnt have acquired Comrie with "chicken bones from lunch". He obviously had value which is why SY got something in return for him.

What? Winnipeg literally just acquired Comrie for less than chicken bones. They got him for free... Yzerman didn't get anything in return for him...

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Except Yzerman doesn't need another late round pick. He needed a backup goalie. Now he doesn't. No harm done. 

As long as the goalie tandem keeps the lottery pick alive , thats all that matters

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 minute ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Never thought he would have a future here so i dont really care , just saying we gave him away for nothing but then again i never thought comrie would amount to much so again .... dont care

K. You basically said this 

3 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

 lets see what other prospect stevie gives away now for some other project that wont work out 

so you obviously "care" enough to be critical of Mr Yzerman. As least that's my interpretation of all this. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

No your right saarijarvi had no future here but at the end of day we did end up giving him away for nothing , i’d argue the same can be said for regula who i think will be an nhler regardles of whether or not hes a star dman

They traded a player they likely had no intension of re-signing for a couple games of Comrie. I think they should have kept Comrie, but at the time it was a great trade, and even now, Saarijarvi is not a loss.

The Perlini trade might not work out, but I highly doubt it'll be a major loss. I'm still of the mind that Perlini could be a player if given an opportunity. Unfortunately, he's not going to get that opportunity in Detroit...

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

5 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

K. You basically said this 

so you obviously "care" enough to be critical of Mr Yzerman. As least that's my interpretation of all this. 

Na , wont lose any sleep over these moves cause i never thought any of them  had a longterm future in detroit

the only one that bugs me is the regula deal .... i think outside of the blues doing fabbri (i still dont see him being here in 3-4 yrs ) a favour and trading him yzerman’s moves have been nothing to write home about , he’s my fav player of all time but i won’t say i agree with everything he’s done so far because of it

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

They traded a player they likely had no intension of re-signing for a couple games of Comrie. I think they should have kept Comrie, but at the time it was a great trade, and even now, Saarijarvi is not a loss.

The Perlini trade might not work out, but I highly doubt it'll be a major loss. I'm still of the mind that Perlini could be a player if given an opportunity. Unfortunately, he's not going to get that opportunity in Detroit...

Great is a bit of a stretch , i’d have kept him over howard cause he’s aging and everyone knows i’ve never been a fan but at this point nobodys going to trade for bernier/howard 

comrie/saarijarvi to will both be in ambri piotta in the swiss league in 2-3 yrs  so again nothing to really complain about ... we’ll have to make a move in the off season and target someone like georgiev with upside , my friends a rangers fan and he wont shut up abot sheshtyorkin and how hes breaking khl records so he should be available

Well we all know i wasn’t a fan of the perlini deal from day 1 and now seeing regula on u.s’s 1st ppl unit i really don’t like it ,i know he wasnt projected to be a number 1 pair guy but we never know if tuomisto or other kids will pan out so i’d have kept him but it is what it is at this point, maybe perlini can join ambri piotta with comrie/saarijjarvi and reminisce about the good old days

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

3 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Na , wont lose any sleep over these moves cause i never thought any of them  had a longterm future in detroit

the only one that bugs me is the regula deal .... i think outside of the blues doing fabbri (i still dont see him being here in 3-4 yrs ) a favour and trading him yzerman’s moves have been nothing to write home about , he’s my fav player of all time but i won’t say i agree with everything he’s done so far because of it

Are we still on the "wings GM makes good trade is because other GM was being nice" thing? 

Yzerman's made a bunch of low risk moves. You make those deals hoping one pans out. And one has. The end. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

39 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Except Saarijarvi wasnt chicken bones. Even depth AHL defenseman have some value. He could have been traded for a late round pick, which would have been more useful to a rebuilding team than an AHL goalie for a few days.

You couldnt have acquired Comrie with "chicken bones from lunch". He obviously had value which is why SY got something in return for him.

Totes disagree.

Firstly, I certainly would NOT send out my 7th for Saarijarvi.

Secondly, you can trade chicken bones if you're willing to get back chicken bones. Comrie is chicken bones. Albeit, chicken bones that were momentarily useful for us.

Everyone and their mother seemed to know Winnipeg was claiming Comrie back if he went to waivers. And if Yzerman was willing to do shop with Chayka on it, he knew too. Yzerman gave up Comrie for free, showing how little Comrie vectored into his long term plans and how little he cares for the opinions of an overly critical fanbase. Chayka on the other end got to look smart in front of his fanbase by trading chicken bones for chicken bones instead of giving away his chicken bones.  

Edited December 19, 2019 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

4 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Are we still on the "wings GM makes good trade is because other GM was being nice" thing? 

Yzerman's made a bunch of low risk moves. You make those deals hoping one pans out. And one has. The end. 

Whatever you say