General Rebuild Discussion Thread

[mackel 679]

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Really? I've yet to hear a good one...

"He plays center"... "He's 10 months younger"... "He's a couple inches taller"... "He's not a soft Frenchie"... "He has better eyebrows"...

Lafreniere is far and away the best player in this draft class, the best in most draft classes, and whoever is lucky enough to win the draft lottery will be getting a far superior player.

You just can't help but be abrasive eh.

[krsmith17 7,191]

22 minutes ago, mackel said:

You just can't help but be abrasive eh.

LOL How was that being abrasive?

[Dabura 12,207]

43 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Really? I've yet to hear a good one...

"He plays center"... "He's 10 months younger"... "He's a couple inches taller"... "He's not a soft Frenchie"... "He has better eyebrows"...

Lafreniere is far and away the best player in this draft class, the best in most draft classes, and whoever is lucky enough to win the draft lottery will be getting a far superior player.

That's what I'm saying. I hear the arguments and I understand the logic, but I'm not really on board with them.

I think the big pro-Byfield talking point is that big, fast, high-scoring 1Cs with great hands are basically unicorns. If you have an opportunity to get one for free, you absolutely should get him -- unless there's a Lafreniere available.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Dabura

[krsmith17 7,191]

15 minutes ago, Dabura said:

That's what I'm saying. I hear the arguments and I understand the logic, but I'm not really on board with them.

I think the big pro-Byfield talking point is that big, fast, high-scoring 1Cs with great hands are basically unicorns. If you have an opportunity to get one for free, you absolutely should get him -- unless there's a Lafreniere available.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't get the logic, for this reason (bolded)... 

[F.Michael 4,590]

C'mon LGW - we all know we'll finish last, and end up picking 4th...Yzerman will draft Stutzle to keep Seider company. 

[Dabura 12,207]

32 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I guess what I'm saying is I don't get the logic, for this reason (bolded)... 

I think in some people's minds the thought of getting a Scheifele/MacKinnon who can push Larkin down to 2C is a couldn't-script-it-any-better, made-for-Hollywood outcome for this otherwise dreadful season. The idea of passing on that cosmic handout for a winger is a hard sell for some. And that's fair.

My counterargument, of course, is that Lafreniere is simply That Good. The more I see of him, the more he reminds me of Crosby. He's not particularly big, he's not particularly fast, but he's smarter than everyone and more skilled than everyone and he plays a heavier, grittier game than you would expect from "a pure scorer." He 100% has the "it factor"; every time he touches the puck anywhere on the ice, you know there's a very real possibility that you're about 5-15 seconds away from seeing his team score.

Could Byfield end up being the better NHLer? Of course. Does the thought of a 1-2-3 punch of "Scheifele"/"MacKinnon"--Larkin--Veleno/Rasmussen get me hard af? Of course. (Veleno looked really good yesterday, btw.) But, like, if what we're looking for is a gamechanging, gamebreaking miracle worker...and we're picking 1st overall...I think we have to pick Lafreniere, because I think he's the guy who's most likely to become That Player.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 hour ago, F.Michael said:

C'mon LGW - we all know we'll finish last, and end up picking 4th...Yzerman will draft Stutzle to keep Seider company. 

"With the 4th pick in the draft, the Detroit Red Wings select no one. I'm done. I quit. Thanks for coming to my impromptu press conference. Bye."

[krsmith17 7,191]

31 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I think in some people's minds the thought of getting a Scheifele/MacKinnon who can push Larkin down to 2C is a couldn't-script-it-any-better, made-for-Hollywood outcome for this otherwise dreadful season. The idea of passing on that cosmic handout for a winger is a hard sell for some. And that's fair.

My counterargument, of course, is that Lafreniere is simply That Good. The more I see of him, the more he reminds me of Crosby. He's not particularly big, he's not particularly fast, but he's smarter than everyone and more skilled than everyone and he plays a heavier, grittier game than you would expect from "a pure scorer." He 100% has the "it factor"; every time he touches the puck anywhere on the ice, you know there's a very real possibility that you're about 5-15 seconds away from seeing his team score.

Could Byfield end up being the better NHLer? Of course. Does the thought of a 1-2-3 punch of "Scheifele"/"MacKinnon"--Larkin--Veleno/Rasmussen get me hard af? Of course. (Veleno looked really good yesterday, btw.) But, like, if what we're looking for is a gamechanging, gamebreaking miracle worker...and we're picking 1st overall...I think we have to pick Lafreniere, because I think he's the guy who's most likely to become That Player.

I think we're pretty much in agreement. I just don't agree (with others) that Larkin needs to be pushed down to 2C. Larkin is a more than capable 1C with the right wingers and with depth throughout the lineup. I think the people that want to take the lesser player because of position, are the same people that think only centers can drive offense. Lafreniere can drive offense from the wing, as good or better than most centers, and would make everyone around him that much better.

Yeah, Lafreniere is That Good, and he absolutely does have The It Factor. That's why he will go number one overall, guaranteed, by whoever wins the draft lottery.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

I think we're pretty much in agreement. I just don't agree (with others) that Larkin needs to be pushed down to 2C. Larkin is a more than capable 1C with the right wingers and with depth throughout the lineup. I think the people that want to take the lesser player because of position, are the same people that think only centers can drive offense. Lafreniere can drive offense from the wing, as good or better than most centers, and would make everyone around him that much better.

Yeah, Lafreniere is That Good, and he absolutely does have The It Factor. That's why he will go number one overall, guaranteed, by whoever wins the draft lottery.

Yup, we're basically in agreement on all points. My thoughts on Lafreniere are more for those who maybe don't feel the same way or don't know what to think.

"With Lafreniere and Byfield being more or less equally talented, we should go for position of need and take Byfield" is a solid argument if you accept that Lafreniere and Byfield are in fact more or less equally talented. Personally, I'm increasingly convinced they're not.

"Byfield is significantly younger, so that's a knock against Lafreniere" is a solid argument if you ignore the fact that Byfield is bigger, stronger, faster than his peers (i.e. Byfield's physical advantages "artificially boost" Byfield as much as if not more than Lafreniere's age "artificially boosts" Lafreniere).

"We're not going to win a Cup with Larkin as our 1C and the kind of 1C we need doesn't exactly grow on trees, so we need to take advantage of this opportunity to get one" is a solid argument if you accept that Lafreniere wouldn't make Larkin a much better centerman.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Yup, we're basically in agreement on all points. My thoughts on Lafreniere are more for those who maybe don't feel the same way or don't know what to think.

"With Lafreniere and Byfield being more or less equally talented, we should go for position of need and take Byfield" is a solid argument if you accept that Lafreniere and Byfield are in fact more or less equally talented. Personally, I'm increasingly convinced they're not.

"Byfield is significantly younger, so that's a knock against Lafreniere" is a solid argument if you ignore the fact that Byfield is bigger, stronger, faster than his peers (i.e. Byfield's physical advantages "artificially boost" Byfield as much as if not more than Lafreniere's age "artificially boosts" Lafreniere).

"We're not going to win a Cup with Larkin as our 1C and the kind of 1C we need doesn't exactly grow on trees, so we need to take advantage of this opportunity to get one" is a solid argument if you accept that Lafreniere wouldn't make Larkin a much better centerman.

Yeah, I guess the people that are advocating taking Byfield over Lafreniere don't yet understand how great of a player this kid is going to be.

Another argument I've heard is that Lafreniere is playing in a higher scoring league than Byfield. That used to be the case, but it's actually the opposite the past couple seasons. I can't remember the exact numbers, but the OHL is actually a higher scoring league than the QMJHL the past couple years. Which makes the numbers Lafreniere is putting up, that much more special.

Lafreniere - QMJHL - 23 goals, 70 points in 32 games / WJC - 1 goal, 4 points in 1 game.

Byfield - OHL - 22 goals, 57 points in 30 games / WJC - 0 points in 1 game.

[mackel 679]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think we're pretty much in agreement. I just don't agree (with others) that Larkin needs to be pushed down to 2C. Larkin is a more than capable 1C with the right wingers and with depth throughout the lineup. I think the people that want to take the lesser player because of position, are the same people that think only centers can drive offense. Lafreniere can drive offense from the wing, as good or better than most centers, and would make everyone around him that much better.

Yeah, Lafreniere is That Good, and he absolutely does have The It Factor. That's why he will go number one overall, guaranteed, by whoever wins the draft lottery.

I couldn't disagree more... Larkin is a 1C if/when you really don't have a true 1C.  If we had another one or two of him (a premier 2C) then that's a different story.

I really think if Larkin is our 1C at the end of this rebuild we'll be nothing more than a second tier contender.

This is why if I was making the choice I'd take Byfield and sign the best available winger in FA.

But.of course this is all opinion and speculation, we'll know what we should have done by 2030.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

28 minutes ago, mackel said:

I couldn't disagree more... Larkin is a 1C if/when you really don't have a true 1C.  If we had another one or two of him (a premier 2C) then that's a different story.

I really think if Larkin is our 1C at the end of this rebuild we'll be nothing more than a second tier contender.

This is why if I was making the choice I'd take Byfield and sign the best available winger in FA.

But.of course this is all opinion and speculation, we'll know what we should have done by 2030.

Sign the best winger in free agency?who the hell wants to come here now? You think taylor hall will come here ?You always pick the best player available at your position and right now lafraniere is the #1 pick  ,id have to check alot of the teams rosters but larkin would be #1 on alot of teams and a very good center at #2.

Everyone was going nuts for larkin last season after putting up a point a game , now we’re gonna write him off cause the team for the most part is complete s*** and his numbers will obviously go down? Obviously when we start adding our #1pick +zadina full time and one year under his belt , veleno ,svechnikov etc.... his numbers will be good again . Larkin is a #1 center and a top #2c on an elite team , which we’re not at the moment but doesnt mean we won’t be good 

if veleno progresses and stays as a C having larkin veleno rasmussen as our 1-3 center’s would be pretty good imo

Edited December 27, 2019 by nyqvististhefuture

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, mackel said:

I couldn't disagree more... Larkin is a 1C if/when you really don't have a true 1C.  If we had another one or two of him (a premier 2C) then that's a different story.

I really think if Larkin is our 1C at the end of this rebuild we'll be nothing more than a second tier contender.

This is why if I was making the choice I'd take Byfield and sign the best available winger in FA.

But.of course this is all opinion and speculation, we'll know what we should have done by 2030.

Larkin has all the tools, and the defensive game to be a Bergeron type center. Is Bergeron not a legit 1C?

Larkin's point totals have suffered this season because the team is s***, but his underlying stats prove that he has been a been a legit 1C. His puck possession, shot suppression, etc. have been off the charts, and he's only going to get better. Give him two legit top line wingers (Mantha / Lafreniere) and that line could potentially be one of the most lethal lines in the entire league.

Again, you never pass up on a far superior player for a position of need. If Byfield were close, I'd consider, but in my opinion, he's not at all.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Larkin has all the tools, and the defensive game to be a Bergeron type center. Is Bergeron not a legit 1C?

Larkin's point totals have suffered this season because the team is s***, but his underlying stats prove that he has been a been a legit 1C. His puck possession, shot suppression, etc. have been off the charts, and he's only going to get better. Give him two legit top line wingers (Mantha / Lafreniere) and that line could potentially be one of the most lethal lines in the entire league.

Again, you never pass up on a far superior player for a position of need. If Byfield were close, I'd consider, but in my opinion, he's not at all.

I think there’s nothing wrong with the bertuzzi larkin mantha line and the numbers are just down cause again , we’re s*** as a whole . If we’re fortunate to add lafraniere id have no problem putting him with larkin but if veleno makes it they have undeniable chemistry and id put them both together and keep the #1 line intact for now but again , no big deal if hes put with larkin or the 2nd line

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Sign the best winger in free agency?who the hell wants to come here now? You think taylor hall will come here ?You always pick the best player available at your position and right now lafraniere is the #1 pick  ,id have to check alot of the teamd rosters but larkin would be #1 on alot of teams and a very good center at #2.

Everyone was going nuts for larkin last season after putting up a point a game , now we’re gonna write him off cause the team for the most part is complete s*** and his numbers will obviously go down? Obviously when we start adding our #1pick +zadina full time and one year under his belt , veleno ,svechnikov etc.... his numbers will be good again . Larkin is a #1 center and a top #2c on an elite team , which we’re not at the moment but doesnt mean we won’t be good 

if veleno progresses and stays as a C having larkin veleno rasmussen as our 1-3 center’s would be pretty good imo

Remember, this is the guy that thinks Zadina is a "bust"...

But yeah, completely agree. Larkin is / will be a legit 1C, and Veleno has all the tools / ability to be a very good 2C. I'm not as worried about our center position as some. I'm more worried about adding elite talent throughout the lineup, and that means drafting BPA.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

I think there’s nothing wrong with the bertuzzi larkin mantha line and the numbers are just down cause again , we’re s*** as a whole . If we’re fortunate to add lafraniere id have no problem putting him with larkin but if veleno makes it they have undeniable chemistry and id put them both together and keep the #1 line intact for now but again , no big deal if hes put with larkin or the 2nd line

Yup, I agree. I think ideally Bertuzzi is a middle six winger, but he could slot anywhere in the lineup, and not look out of place. He's similar to Hyman with the Leafs in that way. I'm all for spreading out the talent though.

[mackel 679]

19 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Sign the best winger in free agency?who the hell wants to come here now? You think taylor hall will come here ?You always pick the best player available at your position and right now lafraniere is the #1 pick  ,id have to check alot of the teams rosters but larkin would be #1 on alot of teams and a very good center at #2.

Everyone was going nuts for larkin last season after putting up a point a game , now we’re gonna write him off cause the team for the most part is complete s*** and his numbers will obviously go down? Obviously when we start adding our #1pick +zadina full time and one year under his belt , veleno ,svechnikov etc.... his numbers will be good again . Larkin is a #1 center and a top #2c on an elite team , which we’re not at the moment but doesnt mean we won’t be good 

if veleno progresses and stays as a C having larkin veleno rasmussen as our 1-3 center’s would be pretty good imo

I was not "going nuts for Larkin" last season... he's OUR 1C, but he ISN'T a 1C on a good team. He's a premier 2C nothing more...  Veleno and Ras have to convert potential to play... I like both as prospects but they aren't roster players let alone significant pieces as of now.

[mackel 679]

22 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Larkin has all the tools, and the defensive game to be a Bergeron type center. Is Bergeron not a legit 1C?

Larkin's point totals have suffered this season because the team is s***, but his underlying stats prove that he has been a been a legit 1C. His puck possession, shot suppression, etc. have been off the charts, and he's only going to get better. Give him two legit top line wingers (Mantha / Lafreniere) and that line could potentially be one of the most lethal lines in the entire league.

Again, you never pass up on a far superior player for a position of need. If Byfield were close, I'd consider, but in my opinion, he's not at all.

Layoff the spiked eggnog and bologna... it's making you see things that aren't there b'ye.  He has all the tools to be a Jordan Stahl.

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, mackel said:

I was not "going nuts for Larkin" last season... he's OUR 1C, but he ISN'T a 1C on a good team. He's a premier 2C nothing more...  Veleno and Ras have to convert potential to play... I like both as prospects but they aren't roster players let alone significant pieces as of now.

Because you say so right? I suggest you dig a little deeper into advanced stats and rely less on the ol' eyeball test, because your eyes are clearly s***.

6 minutes ago, mackel said:

Layoff the spiked eggnog and bologna... it's making you see things that aren't there b'ye.  He has all the tools to be a Jordan Stahl.

Your credibility is going way down with these ridiculous claims...

[mackel 679]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Because you say so right? I suggest you dig a little deeper into advanced stats and rely less on the ol' eyeball test, because your eyes are clearly s***.

Your credibility is going way down with these ridiculous claims...

So I'm the one making a ridiculous comparison... and you, you bring up Bergeron!  You're out to lunch I feel good for you that you have an ink blot to validate your ludicrous POV.

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, mackel said:

So I'm the one making a ridiculous comparison... and you, you bring up Bergeron!  You're out to lunch I feel good for you that you have an ink blot to validate your ludicrous POV.

Comparing a very good defensive center that has already proven that he can put up close to a point per game at the age of 22 (now 23) to Patrice Bergeron... The LUNACY!!!

You go on to compare him to a 40-50 point 3rd line center. Yeah, that's exactly what Larkin is...

Is this guy really that dumb? Or am I that dumb for responding?...

[mackel 679]

7 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Comparing a very good defensive center that has already proven that he can put up close to a point per game at the age of 22 (now 23) to Patrice Bergeron... The LUNACY!!!

You go on to compare him to a 40-50 point 3rd line center. Yeah, that's exactly what Larkin is...

Is this guy really that dumb? Or am I that dumb for responding?...

Bergeron...  GTFO fool 

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 hours ago, mackel said:

Bergeron...  GTFO fool 

Staal (or should I say "Stahl"...) f***ing moron...

[LeftWinger 4,949]

if we're lucky enough to draft Alexis, Valeno will do fine as his center. if we get the #2 we win, win.

[mackel 679]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Staal (or should I say "Stahl"...) f***ing moron...

The moment your adversary resorts to point out spelling errors you know you've won.