General Rebuild Discussion Thread

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm not sure Lafeniere IS the BPA.  Basically he and Byfield are a toss up and we clearly don't need wingers. But given how hard it is to land either of the top spots it's useless to plan for those guys.  And because of that, drafting for position becomes more relevant because (as is typically the case) the next handful of guys are usually all roughly as good as one another. 

Secondly, I definitely don't think Larkin, Veleno, Ras is good enough offensively.  Of the three, Larkin probably has the most offensive upside and he's a LONG way from being a consistent offensive threat.  And I think his real value is as a Zetterberg type guy that you can throw out against elite players and drive them absolutely nuts, rather than a Dats that's going to drive your offense each night (obviously role comparisons, not skill comparisons). 

We'll have to agree to disagree on BPA. I think Lafren has possible generational talent written on him. Byfield will be good, but I don't see that same extreme ceiling.

I like Ras a lot. Still think he's gonna surprise some folks. Veleno having a bad first year, but he's young, not gonna pass judgement like I did on Zadina.

I remind myself that Larkin is still 23. And that the team he's on right now sucks ass and seems to have its confidence crushed on a nightly basis. Still think he's got bigger and better seasons coming down the line.

[kipwinger 8,611]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on BPA. I think Lafren has possible generational talent written on him. Byfield will be good, but I don't see that same extreme ceiling.

I like Ras a lot. Still think he's gonna surprise some folks. Veleno having a bad first year, but he's young, not gonna pass judgement like I did on Zadina.

I remind myself that Larkin is still 23. And that the team he's on right now sucks ass and seems to have its confidence crushed on a nightly basis. Still think he's got bigger and better seasons coming down the line.

You're on crack.  Lafeniere is clearly a top two pick, but like Hughes a year ago, we're not talking about a Crosby, McDavid, Ovechkin level talent here.  The player I've heard him compared to the most is Mikko Rantanen.  That guy's a legitimate stud, but he's not generational.  Byfield is playing at a similarly great but not generational pace, despite being almost a full year younger, and playing the harder position.  Sticking with the Colorado comparison, Byfield is scoring at about the same rate MacKinnon did in his draft year at center.  I'd rather have a MacKinnon type center than almost any winger in the league TBH.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You're on crack.  Lafeniere is clearly a top two pick, but like Hughes a year ago, we're not talking about a Crosby, McDavid, Ovechkin level talent here.  The player I've heard him compared to the most is Mikko Rantanen.  That guy's a legitimate stud, but he's not generational.  Byfield is playing at a similarly great but not generational pace, despite being almost a full year younger, and playing the harder position.  Sticking with the Colorado comparison, Byfield is scoring at about the same rate MacKinnon did in his draft year at center.  I'd rather have a MacKinnon type center than almost any winger in the league TBH.

All good points, but Lafrens hands are like Datsyuk dirty

1 point me

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

don't worry bois

Stutzle will be there for us when we inevitably end up in 4 spot

[kipwinger 8,611]

3 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

don't worry bois

Stutzle will be there for us when we inevitably end up in 4 spot

I'm cool with it if he projects as a center long term.  He clearly has the offense.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

4 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm cool with it if he projects as a center long term.  He clearly has the offense.

Meeee too

For some reason I want to stay away from Peretti and Holtz. 

I'd basically be thrilled with anyone else but a center would be my preference too. 

I think this team gets real special if Larkin is the #2C. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by The 91 of Ryans

[Dabura 12,228]

I think the winger-versus-center argument re: Lafreniere and Byfield is selling Lafreniere short. Dude's a monster offense driver, monster possession player, monster playmaker, monster scoring threat. Is he "generational"? I dunno. Is Draisaitl generational? If Larkin gets to play with Draisaitl on his wing every night, can we reasonably expect that to make Larkin a better player?

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

If you look at the top 10 scorers in the league right now 6 are listed as wingers and 4 are centers. And one of those is Draisaitl who is actually playing on McDavid's wing. My point? I dunno. 

[kipwinger 8,611]

2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I think the winger-versus-center argument re: Lafreniere and Byfield is selling Lafreniere short. Dude's a monster offense driver, monster possession player, monster playmaker, monster scoring threat. Is he "generational"? I dunno. Is Draisaitl generational? If Larkin gets to play with Draisaitl on his wing every night, can we reasonably expect that to make Larkin a better player?

Yeah, but you have a history of drinking the koolaid with prospects a bit.  A year ago you were saying the same stuff about Jack Hughes, how "he's playing chess and everyone else is playing checkers" and how he was generational and Kakko just wasn't on that level.  Now Hughes has 12 points in 27 games (Kakko has 14 in 29 BTW) and looks very much like a good young player, but not necessarily something special relative to other top-of-the-draft players as you insinuated then, and are now about Lafreniere.

Seems pretty clear that he'll be a very good player, but that maybe you buy in the hype a bit too much. 

7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

If you look at the top 10 scorers in the league right now 6 are listed as wingers and 4 are centers. And one of those is Draisaitl who is actually playing on McDavid's wing. My point? I dunno. 

My point was not anything related to center vs. wing in a vacuum.  My point was that our NHL caliber centers are trash while our NHL caliber wingers are pretty good.  We have two center prospects that both have question marks about their offense.  I don't see a team winning if Dylan Larkin is it's most offensively capable center and there's no reason to believe that Veleno or Ras has a higher offensive ceiling.  If I genuinely thought that Lafreniere was THAT much better than Byfield maybe I wouldn't care, but I tend to believe that if Byfield were 10 months older (i.e. same age as Lafreniere) he'd be mauling the CHL too. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

My concern with Stutzle is that he is putting up numbers in a league that was once dominated by NHL alum Marcel Goc and Jochen Hecht. Neither of whom where any better than Frans Nielsen caliber forwards.  I am not convinced that he's going to be a Draisaitl level prospect or better. I think he probably ends up closer to the former than the latter.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

My point was not anything related to center vs. wing in a vacuum.  My point was that our NHL caliber centers are trash while our NHL caliber wingers are pretty good.  We have two center prospects that both have question marks about their offense.  I don't see a team winning if Dylan Larkin is it's most offensively capable center and there's no reason to believe that Veleno or Ras has a higher offensive ceiling.  If I genuinely thought that Lafreniere was THAT much better than Byfield maybe I wouldn't care, but I tend to believe that if Byfield were 10 months older (i.e. same age as Lafreniere) he'd be mauling the CHL too. 

True. I guess I'm just wondering who's feeding Patrick Kane his 36 points? Strome at 21 and Toews at 20 or whatever are the Hawks two highest scoring centers. 

Like, basically, if you have an elite winger, how good does the pivot need to be?

Just playing devils ad. mostly/thinking out loud. 

Edit: I guess the Hawks are a poor example cuz they're not very good. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by The 91 of Ryans

[Dabura 12,228]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Yeah, but you have a history of drinking the koolaid with prospects a bit.  A year ago you were saying the same stuff about Jack Hughes, how "he's playing chess and everyone else is playing checkers" and how he was generational and Kakko just wasn't on that level.  Now Hughes has 12 points in 27 games (Kakko has 14 in 29 BTW) and looks very much like a good young player, but not necessarily something special relative to other top-of-the-draft players as you insinuated then, and are now about Lafreniere.

Seems pretty clear that he'll be a very good player, but that maybe you buy in the hype a bit too much. 

I don't recall saying Hughes is unequivocally generational.

What Hughes is: a tiny-ass 18-year-old who's putting up points as a centerman on a team that can't score goals. I dunno, I must be sleeping on all the other 2019 draftees that are doing the same thing right now. It's almost like Hughes is exactly the kind of centerman you're always saying we need.

Also: I'm on record saying way back in the middle of last season that Kakko would likely win the Calder this season, as Kakko is big and strong and he's coming from the Liiga.

[Dabura 12,228]

I'm not even all-in on Lafreniere; I think there's a case to be made for Byfield being the better pick at #1. I'm just saying Lafreniere isn't exactly your typical winger who's going to live and die based on who he's flanking, so holding the fact that he's not a centerman against him strikes me as kinda small-brained.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Lmao you pathetic "the #2 could go #1" guys never fail to make me laugh with your "draft rebuild" threads

Face it, Lafreniere will be infinitely more successful than any of you sad virgins ever will be. You are on the wrong side of history, Alexis is going #1, get over it losers

[Dabura 12,228]

15 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

True. I guess I'm just wondering who's feeding Patrick Kane his 36 points? Strome at 21 and Toews at 20 or whatever are the Hawks two highest scoring centers. 

Like, basically, if you have an elite winger, how good does the pivot need to be?

Just playing devils ad. mostly/thinking out loud. 

Edit: I guess the Hawks are a poor example cuz they're not very good. 

Even when the 'hawks were good, Toews was never really a huge scorer. 76 points in 2010-11 and 81 points last season, those are his career highs.

I can't even remember who the 2Cs were for those three Cups. Michael...Handzus...?

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Lmao you pathetic "the #2 could go #1" guys never fail to make me laugh with your "draft rebuild" threads

Face it, Lafreniere will be infinitely more successful than any of you sad virgins ever will be. You are on the wrong side of history, Alexis is going #1, get over it losers

The Virgin Quinton vs The Chad Baguette

[krsmith17 7,191]

Always. Best. Player. Available.

We need elite talent. It doesn't matter which position that comes from. I'll be thrilled with either of Lafreniere or Byfield, but if we end up with the number one pick, I'm taking Lafreniere every time. Whichever team ends up winning that draft lottery will as well, because he is / will be the best player available.

Elite wingers can drive a line just as well as elite centers. Having a Lafreniere instantly makes your team that much better. He will make everyone he plays with, including the center, that much better.

We need line drivers. I'd argue that our best line driver right now is a winger. I think Larkin needs Mantha just as much or more than Mantha needs Larkin to produce offense. Mantha makes that top line go. Lafreniere could do the same, but even at a higher degree.

Byfield would be one hell of a consolation prize, and I'd be thrilled if we took him at number 2.

I'm also getting on the Stutzel hype train. He might be who I'd lean towards at 3. At 4, I have no idea who I'd take. Maybe one of the Swedish wingers (Raymond / Holtz)...

[Akakabuto 1,822]

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Islanders-Up-Interest-in-Andreas-Athanasioue4-Leafs-Shopping/1/103192

So who are we getting from the Isles?

(I know the source is crap)

[F.Michael 4,590]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

don't worry bois

Stutzle will be there for us when we inevitably end up in 4 spot

Kraut Kid, or the Ruskie Goalie is whom I’m thinking Grand Master Y will pick with the 3rd thru 5th pick.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Always. Best. Player. Available.

We need elite talent. It doesn't matter which position that comes from. I'll be thrilled with either of Lafreniere or Byfield, but if we end up with the number one pick, I'm taking Lafreniere every time. Whichever team ends up winning that draft lottery will as well, because he is / will be the best player available.

Elite wingers can drive a line just as well as elite centers. Having a Lafreniere instantly makes your team that much better. He will make everyone he plays with, including the center, that much better.

We need line drivers. I'd argue that our best line driver right now is a winger. I think Larkin needs Mantha just as much or more than Mantha needs Larkin to produce offense. Mantha makes that top line go. Lafreniere could do the same, but even at a higher degree.

Byfield would be one hell of a consolation prize, and I'd be thrilled if we took him at number 2.

I'm also getting on the Stutzel hype train. He might be who I'd lean towards at 3. At 4, I have no idea who I'd take. Maybe one of the Swedish wingers (Raymond / Holtz)...

I've been seeing gifs of Lafrens moves since he was like 16

Byfield is nice and all, but it's Lafren time, and any argument otherwise is objectively wrong

5 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Islanders-Up-Interest-in-Andreas-Athanasioue4-Leafs-Shopping/1/103192

So who are we getting from the Isles?

(I know the source is crap)

Before anyone says anything

HOW COULD IT HURT US? IT COULDNT

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Islanders-Up-Interest-in-Andreas-Athanasioue4-Leafs-Shopping/1/103192

So who are we getting from the Isles?

(I know the source is crap)

If Eklund is reporting it, it almost guarantees it not happening, which I'm fine with, since I don't really like the Islanders as a trade partner. I have no idea who I'd target from that team... Maybe Wahlstrom... But even then, I wouldn't be too thrilled unless it were Wahlstrom plus, which I doubt the Isles would do...

5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I've been seeing gifs of Lafrens moves since he was like 16

Byfield is nice and all, but it's Lafren time, and any argument otherwise is objectively wrong

Yeah, kid is the real deal. He's not on the Crosby / McDavid level, so not generational, but he's as close to that level we've seen in years in my opinion. I think he could have a Matthews level impact from the wing. He's a pretty significant step above Hall in my opinion.

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Before anyone says anything

HOW COULD IT HURT US? IT COULDNT

Pass.

[Dabura 12,228]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

My concern with Stutzle is that he is putting up numbers in a league that was once dominated by NHL alum Marcel Goc and Jochen Hecht. Neither of whom where any better than Frans Nielsen caliber forwards.  I am not convinced that he's going to be a Draisaitl level prospect or better. I think he probably ends up closer to the former than the latter.

I haven't seen enough of him to have a really strong opinion. But what little I have seen of him has me thinking all the ingredients are there for a really good player, possibly a cornerstone guy. Nielsen never had his hands and skating and ability to make big plays with the puck at top speed.

I'm not really sure what to make of the DEL, but certainly Stutzle has an extremely impressive international resume.

I'm really eager to see what he does at the upcoming WJC.

[Dabura 12,228]

41 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Elite wingers can drive a line just as well as elite centers. Having a Lafreniere instantly makes your team that much better. He will make everyone he plays with, including the center, that much better.

We need line drivers. I'd argue that our best line driver right now is a winger. I think Larkin needs Mantha just as much or more than Mantha needs Larkin to produce offense. Mantha makes that top line go. Lafreniere could do the same, but even at a higher degree.

Byfield would be one hell of a consolation prize, and I'd be thrilled if we took him at number 2.

Well said.

TBH, I'm kind of tired of agonizing over specific holes in our depth chart and ranking them according to the conventional wisdom re: which positions are more important than others. The Knights nearly won a Cup with a team full of nobodies. The Blues won a Cup with a forward core of O'Reilly, Schenn, Tarasenko, Schwartz, Perron and a defense core of Pietrangelo, Parayko, Gunnarsson, Bouwmeester. I'd love to have a top-tier player at every position, but looking for a special mix of mostly-unspectacular players might be the way to go in today's league. (Credit where it's due: This is something kip has been saying for a while now.)

Is Veleno/Rasmussen a high-scoring 1C? Prob'ly not. But put him between Lafreniere and Mantha in a couple of years and maybe he is. Why not. That's no more implausible than Filip "Literally who?" Hronek putting up 40 points through his first 77 NHL games.

[kipwinger 8,611]

2 hours ago, Dabura said:

I don't recall saying Hughes is unequivocally generational.

What Hughes is: a tiny-ass 18-year-old who's putting up points as a centerman on a team that can't score goals. I dunno, I must be sleeping on all the other 2019 draftees that are doing the same thing right now. It's almost like Hughes is exactly the kind of centerman you're always saying we need.

Also: I'm on record saying way back in the middle of last season that Kakko would likely win the Calder this season, as Kakko is big and strong and he's coming from the Liiga.

Definitely.  But that's not the point I'm making.  The point I'm making is that you, and a handful of other people on LGW, get positively moist about every consensus #1 pick every draft year and act like nobody is even close to their skill level.  And then two years down the line, when history shows that they weren't the absolute beasts you made them out to be you've conveniently moved on. 

Remember when everybody around here was drooling endlessly over Dahlin?  Remember how he was the best defensive prospect in modern history?  I do.  EVERYBODY just knew he was on a different level and we'd never seen anything like him right?  And then Quinn Hughes and Cale Maker turned out to be better at the same stages of their careers.  Nobody talked about those two guys the same way, what happened?  I have a theory.  Rasmus Dahlin was never that much better, or better at all, than other top of the draft defenders.  Neither was Jack Hughes. And neither is Alexis Lafreniere. 

Why does this matter?  Because when people drone on about BPA it assumes that there IS a BPA.  And that the differences between players is obvious.  The reality is the differences at the top of the draft are pretty small and even consensus #1 picks are routinely outperformed by guys that nobody ever discusses in the same way.  So if you choice is between player A and player B (assuming both are highly regarded top picks) you should look at your depth chart and fill holes. 

[kipwinger 8,611]

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

My concern with Stutzle is that he is putting up numbers in a league that was once dominated by NHL alum Marcel Goc and Jochen Hecht. Neither of whom where any better than Frans Nielsen caliber forwards.  I am not convinced that he's going to be a Draisaitl level prospect or better. I think he probably ends up closer to the former than the latter.

Well, asking anybody to be a 100 point two-way workhorse is asking a lot.  But yeah, I had the same concerns about the DEL after drafting Seider and he's proving me wrong on that pretty hard right now.  I think the impressive thing with Stutzle is how well he's performing in a men's league for such a young guy.  He's still only 17 and he's tied for 9th in league scoring. 

[F.Michael 4,590]

37 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Definitely.  But that's not the point I'm making.  The point I'm making is that you, and a handful of other people on LGW, get positively moist about every consensus #1 pick every draft year and act like nobody is even close to their skill level.  And then two years down the line, when history shows that they weren't the absolute beasts you made them out to be you've conveniently moved on. 

Remember when everybody around here was drooling endlessly over Dahlin?  Remember how he was the best defensive prospect in modern history?  I do.  EVERYBODY just knew he was on a different level and we'd never seen anything like him right?  And then Quinn Hughes and Cale Maker turned out to be better at the same stages of their careers.  Nobody talked about those two guys the same way, what happened?  I have a theory.  Rasmus Dahlin was never that much better, or better at all, than other top of the draft defenders.  Neither was Jack Hughes. And neither is Alexis Lafreniere. 

Why does this matter?  Because when people drone on about BPA it assumes that there IS a BPA.  And that the differences between players is obvious.  The reality is the differences at the top of the draft are pretty small and even consensus #1 picks are routinely outperformed by guys that nobody ever discusses in the same way.  So if you choice is between player A and player B (assuming both are highly regarded top picks) you should look at your depth chart and fill holes. 

You had me at 'moist'...

On a more serious note...Our luck would be to draft Lefreniere, and he becomes Alex Daigle part deux.