12/10 ( ︶︿︶)_╭∩╮ GDT - Red Wings @ Jets - 8:00 PM ET

[Dabura 12,207]

11 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Of course it can. And I think it's happening this season "sort" of by design. I'm less worried about culture than I am about skill and ability. It's just not there.

At the beginning of the season, I was right there with you. "We have a skill problem, plain and simple. All is going according to plan. This has to happen."

15 games ago, I was right there with you. "We have a skill problem, plain and simple. All is going according to plan. This has to happen."

Today? I can't say I'm definitely right there with you. I suspect our problems go much deeper than skill. I saw Bertuzzi casually skate over the puck 75 times last night. It killed my soul.

11 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

All this shart show should demonstrate is that this team is not 2 years away from contending for anything. It's going to take 5 years minimum. Like I've been saying all along. And now that Zadina's been sent back to GRs there's probably only 2-3 guys that will play tomorrow night that will be part of this team in 5 years. 

Funny thing is, I'm not all that worried about the long-term rebuild. Everything says I should be, but for whatever reason I'm not. I still feel like this thing can be turned around within the next two years.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Dabura

[marcaractac 3,962]

2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

At the beginning of the season, I was right there with you. "We have a skill problem, plain and simple. All is going according to plan. This has to happen."

15 games ago, I was right there with you. "We have a skill problem, plain and simple. All is going according to plan. This has to happen."

Today? I can't say I'm definitely right there with you. I suspect our problems go much deeper than skill. I saw Bertuzzi casually skate over the puck 75 times last night. It killed my soul.

Funny thing is, I'm not all that worried about the long-term rebuild. Everything says I should be, but for whatever reason I'm not. I still feel like this thing can be turned around within the next two years.

It's confidence. It's shot. They came out of the gate flying. They got scored on. Deflated. That happens when losing 12 in a row. I think it's safe to say it's still a skill problem. A win is gonna do wonders for this group. The weight of the world will be off their shoulders. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

 

Funny thing is, I'm not all that worried about the long-term rebuild. Everything says I should be, but for whatever reason I'm not. I still feel like this thing can be turned around within the next two years.

History says you don't go from this bad to turned around in two years. I think I'm taking a risk saying 5. 

But this should hopefully be the darkest part right now. The only way it gets worse is if the kids in GRs start dropping like flies when they make it to the NHL. 

[Dabura 12,207]

Just now, marcaractac said:

It's confidence. It's shot. They came out of the gate flying. They got scored on. Deflated. That happens when losing 12 in a row. I think it's safe to say it's still a skill problem. A win is gonna do wonders for this group. The weight of the world will be off their shoulders. 

I'm sure there's a skill component, don't get me wrong. I mostly agree with you. But I've been watching hockey for a long time (we all have) and, personally, I've never seen anything like this. I've seen horrific losing streaks. I've seen teams that've collectively given up the ghost. What I'm seeing with this Wings team feels different to me. But maybe that's because I'm an obsessive Wings fan and I'm closer to it and invested in it.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

11 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

We can flirt with a playoff spot in two years if we get some draft lottery luck this summer. Lots of talented players in the system, it's not a stretch for the turnaround to be quick with a little luck. Agreed that this season's suckage seems to be very much by design, however.

Larkin, Bert, Mantha, Hronek, Fabbri are guys who will stick around. Sign a decent goalie and dman, luck our way into Lafreniere, call up Seider. Next year alone can be a hell of a lot better. 

What's the design, though?  We're not guaranteed a top pick even if they lose the next 50 games in a row.  Unfortunately, this is not the NFL draft.  

[marcaractac 3,962]

6 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

History says you don't go from this bad to turned around in two years. I think I'm taking a risk saying 5. 

But this should hopefully be the darkest part right now. The only way it gets worse is if the kids in GRs start dropping like flies when they make it to the NHL. 

I'd feel like we're five years from anything if our prospect pool was shallow, but luckily that isn't the case. Toronto and Colorado are two teams that turned it around extremely fast, and despite how grim it is now, I feel like our rebuilds are more in line with those than say Edmonton. or Buffalo. 

2 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

What's the design, though?  We're not guaranteed a top pick even if they lose the next 50 games in a row.  Unfortunately, this is not the NFL draft.  

To be guaranteed a top 4 instead of say, a top 10. To have the best odds at a lottery pick in a year with a generational talent on the line. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

7 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

What's the design, though?  We're not guaranteed a top pick even if they lose the next 50 games in a row.  Unfortunately, this is not the NFL draft.  

To be lottery bad for another 2-3 years.

If I take my fanboy glasses off and look at prospect development statistically and then I pretend to be Yzerman, I see this:

? - ? - ?

Bertuzzi Larkin Mantha

Veleno Rasmussen Zadina (and stats show that at least one of those guys busts)

?- ? - ?

Seider Hronek

?- ?

? - ?

Goalies ??

 

and then I'm thinking we need a top 5 prospect this year and next year and a top 10 pick the following year and some Pastrnak/Kucherov/Jossi type luck thrown into that mix as well. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by The 91 of Ryans

[Dabura 12,207]

3 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

History says you don't go from this bad to turned around in two years. I think I'm taking a risk saying 5.

I'm nodding in agreement and yet I don't feel it in my gut. Maybe I'm in denial.

5 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

But this should hopefully be the darkest part right now. The only way it gets worse is if the kids in GRs start dropping like flies when they make it to the NHL. 

Hopefully Zadina and Seider can be impact NHLers next season. I adore Seider.

Rasmussen's been out with an injury, so for now I'm (unfairly) treating him as someone who isn't going to help us soon. Veleno clearly isn't close, which is a big bummer. Hopefully our 2020 1st is NHL-ready...

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Rasmussen's been out with an injury, so for now I'm (unfairly) treating him as someone who isn't going to help us soon. Veleno clearly isn't close, which is a big bummer. Hopefully our 2020 1st is NHL-ready...

Perfect example. Some LGWers had him penciled in as next year's 2nd line center before this season even started. In spite of seeing how last year went for someone like Zadina. 

Obvious statement time: prospects are unpredictable

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

6 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I'm nodding in agreement and yet I don't feel it in my gut. Maybe I'm in denial.

Hopefully Zadina and Seider can be impact NHLers next season. I adore Seider.

Rasmussen's been out with an injury, so for now I'm (unfairly) treating him as someone who isn't going to help us soon. Veleno clearly isn't close, which is a big bummer. Hopefully our 2020 1st is NHL-ready...

Leave it to the Germans to throw their weight around like they own the place. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

100%

A year or two ago I saw the light and realized maintaining a winning culture isn't just an empty Hollandism -- it's a thing, it's meaningful, it's important. More important than anything. So I've been arguing in favor of keeping that going and not blowing things to hell "because lotto odds."

Well, that culture appears to be gone now. Poof. Only took 30 games. Which makes me wonder if it was ever there in the first place. The stories we're hearing about Babcock and the possibility that Holland knowingly enabled all of that madness certainly isn't making me feel super proud to have defended The Winning Culture Plan.

A few weeks ago some insider(ish) guy on Twitter -- I think he claims to be part of the Wings' media machinery -- said he has it on good authority that Larkin has a coke habit. I have no real reason to believe him and maybe for that reason I'm a dingus for even bringing it up here. But, honestly, it wouldn't surprise me. No team performs as poorly as this team is performing. It just doesn't happen. A s*** roster plus s*** coaching can't account for the level of suck we're witnessing; I'd be surprised if there isn't a "culture problem."

Of course Larkin does cocaine. Cocaine is awesome.

I'm less concerned about the drugs, and more concerned about leadership. Larkin is the guy who the franchise has chosen as the poster boy, and I think its fair to say he's prolly the guy those in the room look to. The fact that he's doing coke is a sign that he's still young, immature, and not ready to lead yet.

There's no papa bear in that room. No Kronwall who's seen it all. No bad ass Todd Bertuzzi to protect you.... Maybe Larkin/Mantha etc will be those guys one day, but they're not now. They're still figuring this league out.

I would be all for a Daniel Alfredsson type signing right now. I know someone will go REEEEEEEEEEEE WE DONT NEED VETS RIGHT NOW PLAY THE KIDS. Buddy the kids suck. Sign Corey Perry in the off season plz

 

56 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I'm generally not a fan of the whole Athletic scene; they're all a buncha pinko commie nerds to me. But at this point I'll take any morsel of HYPE! that I can get.

This country needs another red scare. The amount of children who think communism is a thing still is sad.

[F.Michael 4,590]

2 hours ago, Dabura said:

Srsly tho. I'm really starting to legit hate this team. Not the Red Wings as a franchise. Not these players on a personal level. Just...this team. The mix. The lack of effort. The stupid, lazy passes into everyone's skates. The suck. The shamefulness and shamelessness of it all. There is nothing redeeming here. There is nothing exciting here. There are no fun narratives to follow, aside from "Who will we take with the 3rd overall pick?" I can't believe things have gotten this bad.

I fondly recall watching Grand Master Y back when he was a kid during the mid 80s...At least back then he shined amongst his teammates, and made guys like Probert, and Gallant even better than what they were...They also didn’t get pushed around, and appeared to not enjoy losing.

 I don’t see any of the above with today’s Red Wings.

 

[Dabura 12,207]

21 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

To be lottery bad for another 2-3 years.

If I take my fanboy glasses off and look at prospect development statistically and then I pretend to be Yzerman, I see this:

? - ? - ?

Bertuzzi Larkin Mantha

Veleno Rasmussen Zadina (and stats show that at least one of those guys busts)

?- ? - ?

Seider Hronek

?- ?

? - ?

Goalies ??

 

and then I'm thinking we need a top 5 prospect this year and next year and a top 10 pick the following year and some Pastrnak/Kucherov/Jossi type luck thrown into that mix as well.

This is what's so weird about me not being all that worried despite all my alarms going off.

Like, look at the Jets. Scheifele. Laine. Connor. Ehlers. Wheeler. Morrissey. Hellebuyck. For a couple of seasons they had all these guys *plus* Byfuglien and Trouba and Myers. That's exponentially more talent than we have, and it was built up over many years of sucking -- and they still went out like chumps in the 2018 conference finals and in the first round last season.

We'll be lucky if our first pick in the upcoming draft becomes Scheifele-good. Even then, we'd have holes. And even if we fill all those holes, we could still be a chump team that gets chump results, because hockey is stupid. We could lose our whole Cup-worthy blue line in one offseason because reasons.

On the plus side: It was that ragtag underdog Knights team that ousted the Jets in 2018 and a similarly overachieving Blues team that spanked the Jets this past season. You can have all the talent in the world on your team and routinely end up disappointed. Yzerman learned that as a Red Wings player and, more recently, as the Lightning's GM. There's always a plucky Tortorella Blue Jackets team ready to f*** your s*** up.

So, while we do have obvious and numerous holes...I think maybe I'm just ready for the Wings to come at things from a different angle. Instead of being A Perennial Powerhouse, maybe Yzerman tries to MacGyver the s*** out of this thing and put together a team that's far more than the sum of its parts and exists to f*** "better" teams' s*** up.

Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha is a pretty good top line, imo. Ideally, it's a second line. Fabbri appears to be a pretty solid top-six Nyquist type. I'd like to think that's Zadina's floor. Add Lafreniere or Byfield, or maybe hope that Stutzle is indeed another Elias Pettersson (which isn't necessarily a big stretch). That's a pretty good top six, in theory. Sign a UFA in the mold of T.J. Oshie (my preference would be Kyle Palmieri, who's UFA-eligible at the end of next season) and bump Fabbri or Zadina down to the bottom six.

Mantha -- Byfield -- Palmieri
Bertuzzi -- Larkin -- Zadina
Fabbri -- Rasmussen/Veleno (?) - Athanasiou (?)
[who cares] -- [who cares] -- [who cares]

Hronek is a legit top-pairing defenseman and Seider appears to be well on his way to becoming one. At present, we basically have nothing truly exciting in the system beyond those two guys. McIsaac is a good-not-great prospect. Cholowski is Kindl. So I'd expect Yzerman to use his newfound cap flexibility to target guys outside the organization. The nice thing about trying to put a solid D group together is you only need to find three or four winners. If Hronek and Seider are two, we're already halfway there. In theory. I guess. Maybe. Ideally. Possibly.

Goalies are dumb. Overpay for Markstrom or Lehner. I dunno. I hate goalies.

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Perfect example. Some LGWers had him penciled in as next year's 2nd line center before this season even started. In spite of seeing how last year went for someone like Zadina. 

Obvious statement time: prospects are unpredictable

Truth.

I'd really like to see us become one of those organizations that, y'know, actually hits on a number of picks across a number of drafts. That would be cool.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Of course Larkin does cocaine. Cocaine is awesome.

I'm less concerned about the drugs, and more concerned about leadership. Larkin is the guy who the franchise has chosen as the poster boy, and I think its fair to say he's prolly the guy those in the room look to. The fact that he's doing coke is a sign that he's still young, immature, and not ready to lead yet.

There's no papa bear in that room. No Kronwall who's seen it all. No bad ass Todd Bertuzzi to protect you.... Maybe Larkin/Mantha etc will be those guys one day, but they're not now. They're still figuring this league out.

I would be all for a Daniel Alfredsson type signing right now. I know someone will go REEEEEEEEEEEE WE DONT NEED VETS RIGHT NOW PLAY THE KIDS. Buddy the kids suck. Sign Corey Perry in the off season plz

Right. The NHL has had a coke problem for decades. So, whatever. My concern would be off-ice dingusry *plus* -- and maybe largely *because of* -- a leadership void. Zetterberg leaves. A year later, Kronwall leaves. Nielsen wears an A and our backup goalie is outscoring him. Howard is fat and he and his wife have, like, 30 children of their own to raise, which is probably why he's fat. Green's wife just had a baby and he's physically broken and sometimes he plays hockey for us and he's probably retiring this summer. Ericsson is broken. Daley is broken. I could go on, but you get it. It's a really bad situation. It's what I mean when I say this is more than a talent thing. This is a sinkhole.

We need leadership, guys who command respect. We need accountability. We need bag skates. We need the carrot and the stick. We need talent, but I think there's a whole "human management" component to this mess.

I just saw Cholowski's been sent to GR. I like this take:

I dunno that I actually buy it. But it's a nice thought.

1 hour ago, F.Michael said:

I fondly recall watching Grand Master Y back when he was a kid during the mid 80s...At least back then he shined amongst his teammates, and made guys like Probert, and Gallant even better than what they were...They also didn’t get pushed around, and appeared to not enjoy losing.

 I don’t see any of the above with today’s Red Wings.

I would like to know how many times this team has been bag skated this season. Cuz I feel like the answer is zero. And, if so, I'd like to know why that is. If the answer is "It's not their fault that they suck. We don't have enough talent to compete with other teams," I think maybe we've identified our culture problem.

[mackel 679]

3 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

History says you don't go from this bad to turned around in two years. I think I'm taking a risk saying 5. 

But this should hopefully be the darkest part right now. The only way it gets worse is if the kids in GRs start dropping like flies when they make it to the NHL. 

Colorado:

2016-17       48 pts

2017-18       95 pts

2018-19       90 pts

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Right. The NHL has had a coke problem for decades. So, whatever. My concern would be off-ice dingusry *plus* -- and maybe largely *because of* -- a leadership void. Zetterberg leaves. A year later, Kronwall leaves. Nielsen wears an A and our backup goalie is outscoring him. Howard is fat and he and his wife have, like, 30 children of their own to raise, which is probably why he's fat. Green's wife just had a baby and he's physically broken and sometimes he plays hockey for us and he's probably retiring this summer. Ericsson is broken. Daley is broken. I could go on, but you get it. It's a really bad situation. It's what I mean when I say this is more than a talent thing. This is a sinkhole.

We need leadership, guys who command respect. We need accountability. We need bag skates. We need the carrot and the stick. We need talent, but I think there's a whole "human management" component to this mess.

I just saw Cholowski's been sent to GR. I like this take:

I dunno that I actually buy it. But it's a nice thought.

I would like to know how many times this team has been bag skated this season. Cuz I feel like the answer is zero. And, if so, I'd like to know why that is. If the answer is "It's not their fault that they suck. We don't have enough talent to compete with other teams," I think maybe we've identified our culture problem.

HAha ******* good. I've been hesitant to rip on Cholowski cause he's a 1st round D pick that I really want to be good. But that first goal on Comrie last night broke me. f*** that kid, if that's how you're gonna play hockey standing their watching your goalie get wacked in the arms by opponents then you should go to the ECHL until you hit puberty and develop a pair of balls.

McIlrath going down is no surprise, but why is he not fighting when he's up? I know Babs didn't like his Dmen to fight cause it would shorten his bench, but c'mon Blash, do you really share in that belief right now?. We are not the same powerplay is our enforcer team anymore. We should be fighting at every opportunity. I would literally be personally massaging big dylans knuckles b4 each match if I was Blash. And buying him milkshakes after games where he fights.

The lack of emotion from Blashill is starting to get to me. Standing there with a straight face like you aren't about to match the record for longest losing streak in NHL history. Like you aren't about to have the worst NHL season by any team in 300 years. Is he that comfortable in his job? Is he comfortably numb?

Say what you want about bad man Babcock but Babs veins would be bursting out of his neck right now and he'd be implementing Homer Simpson parenting techniques.

FREEP Story Today

Quote

“For me, all I’m doing is what I always do and that’s be solution-based and worry about what we can control. What we can control right now is learning from this game and make sure we are helping our team get better. Find solutions. Come Thursday and worry just about that. That’s it.”

What are those solutions Jeff? The same lines again and again and again? The same loss of confidence and composure after an enemy goal is scored again and again and again?

What did you learn from this game that you didn't learn in the previous 13 games?

Just don't worry about it I guess, right Jeff?

RED WINGS INTERN WHO READS THESE BOARDS FOR FAN REACTIONS, the team is treading into jersey burning waters. You won't need to worry about PETA and octopi soon, cause I'm gonna poop into my own hand and fling it at jeff blashill like a chimpanzee if this team doesn't normalize quickly

Edited December 11, 2019 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[mackel 679]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

This is what's so weird about me not being all that worried despite all my alarms going off.

Like, look at the Jets. Scheifele. Laine. Connor. Ehlers. Wheeler. Morrissey. Hellebuyck. For a couple of seasons they had all these guys *plus* Byfuglien and Trouba and Myers. That's exponentially more talent than we have, and it was built up over many years of sucking -- and they still went out like chumps in the 2018 conference finals and in the first round last season.

 We'll be lucky if our first pick in the upcoming draft becomes Scheifele-good. Even then, we'd have holes. And even if we fill all those holes, we could still be a chump team that gets chump results, because hockey is stupid. We could lose our whole Cup-worthy blue line in one offseason because reasons.

On the plus side: It was that ragtag underdog Knights team that ousted the Jets in 2018 and a similarly overachieving Blues team that spanked the Jets this past season. You can have all the talent in the world on your team and routinely end up disappointed. Yzerman learned that as a Red Wings player and, more recently, as the Lightning's GM. There's always a plucky Tortorella Blue Jackets team ready to f*** your s*** up.

So, while we do have obvious and numerous holes...I think maybe I'm just ready for the Wings to come at things from a different angle. Instead of being A Perennial Powerhouse, maybe Yzerman tries to MacGyver the s*** out of this thing and put together a team that's far more than the sum of its parts and exists to f*** "better" teams' s*** up.

Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha is a pretty good top line, imo. Ideally, it's a second line. Fabbri appears to be a pretty solid top-six Nyquist type. I'd like to think that's Zadina's floor. Add Lafreniere or Byfield, or maybe hope that Stutzle is indeed another Elias Pettersson (which isn't necessarily a big stretch). That's a pretty good top six, in theory. Sign a UFA in the mold of T.J. Oshie (my preference would be Kyle Palmieri, who's UFA-eligible at the end of next season) and bump Fabbri or Zadina down to the bottom six.

Mantha -- Byfield -- Palmieri
Bertuzzi -- Larkin -- Zadina
Fabbri -- Rasmussen/Veleno (?) - Athanasiou (?)
[who cares] -- [who cares] -- [who cares]

Hronek is a legit top-pairing defenseman and Seider appears to be well on his way to becoming one. At present, we basically have nothing truly exciting in the system beyond those two guys. McIsaac is a good-not-great prospect. Cholowski is Kindl. So I'd expect Yzerman to use his newfound cap flexibility to target guys outside the organization. The nice thing about trying to put a solid D group together is you only need to find three or four winners. If Hronek and Seider are two, we're already halfway there. In theory. I guess. Maybe. Ideally. Possibly.

Goalies are dumb. Overpay for Markstrom or Lehner. I dunno. I hate goalies.

Truth.

I'd really like to see us become one of those organizations that, y'know, actually hits on a number of picks across a number of drafts. That would be cool.

I see you have Larkin at 2C, my canary in the coal mine for this team is Larkin at 2C...  if we get there we're ok!  If not then we're effed.  This is why if I have the #1 pick I'd take Byfield and not La-furniture (LOL)

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

34 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

cause I'm gonna poop into my own hand and fling it at jeff blashill like a chimpanzee if this team doesn't normalize quickly

So, a normal Saturday night then.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

10 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

So, a normal Saturday night then.

Honest question, is it against the rules for an athlete to poop in his drawers on the ice and continue playing? Seems like it would be a solid defensive technique. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 hour ago, mackel said:

Colorado:

2016-17       48 pts

2017-18       95 pts

2018-19       90 pts

Cool! Now do Florida, Edmonton, Buffalo, Carolina, Arizona.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

[chaps80 1,591]

So Comrie was apparently the lone bright spot in this loss, despite the score. Game could have been a lot worse without some of the stops he made and he was hung out to dry quite a bit. I'd like to see him keep starting games, f*** Bernier. He can ride the pine for awhile. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 hours ago, Dabura said:

I'm nodding in agreement and yet I don't feel it in my gut. Maybe I'm in denial.

Hopefully Zadina and Seider can be impact NHLers next season. I adore Seider.

Rasmussen's been out with an injury, so for now I'm (unfairly) treating him as someone who isn't going to help us soon. Veleno clearly isn't close, which is a big bummer. Hopefully our 2020 1st is NHL-ready...

Amazing that we finally drafted a kid who isn't a complete *****.

Didn't realize Seider is on track to set records. This kid is ready. He's been ready. Yzerman is protecting his first OG Detroit Yzer-pick from this horrid nightmare of a team and letting Holland's picks burn. Smart move for his reputation as a manager.

Need to dig up comments from all those who doubted Yzerman on draft day. Seider has Norris's written all over him. Reminds of me of Pronger minus the dooshyness. Big, mobile, physical, smart, big personality. Real captain material.

He will take Timmy Stoots 4th overall this year, and then we will get the Stoots/Sides show in a few years. Hard working german bros who will fix the physically and mentally soft culture of this team.

[Dabura 12,207]

Welp, looks like I jinxed Seider.

Probably injured. I'm sorry, frens.

[Dabura 12,207]

3 hours ago, mackel said:

I see you have Larkin at 2C, my canary in the coal mine for this team is Larkin at 2C...  if we get there we're ok!  If not then we're effed.  This is why if I have the #1 pick I'd take Byfield and not La-furniture (LOL)

Totally agree about Larkin! Not sure I'd take Byfield over Lafreniere, but I 100% understand and appreciate the argument that we need a franchise centerman more than we need a franchise winger. I'm all about center depth.