Mantha might be done for the year - what now

[krsmith17 7,191]

17 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

His time in STL where he was either scratched or on the 4th line...

Fabbri was often scratched with the Blues, but was never on their 4th line. He spent the majority of his time on the 3rd line with Bozak at center, and one of Sanford, Steen, or Thomas on the other wing.

Zadina wasn't ever scratched, but constantly being sent up and down can have a similar effect. He played mostly on the Wings "2nd" and 3rd line to start, but with lesser linemates than Fabbri ever had in St. Louis, with one of Filppula or Nielsen at center, and one of Helm, Erne or Glendening on the other wing.

Since being promoted and playing with mostly capable linemates, Zadina has been very good (better than Fabbri) by just about every metric.

Zadina is better than Fabbri now, and will likely be MUCH better in the future. That should be exciting as a Red Wings fan, unless it means you might be wrong apparently...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Fabbri was often scratched with the Blues, but was never on their 4th line. He spent the majority of his time on the 3rd line with Bozak at center, and one of Sanford, Steen, or Thomas on the other wing.

Zadina wasn't ever scratched, but constantly being sent up and down can have a similar effect. He played mostly on the Wings "2nd" and 3rd line to start, but with lesser linemates than Fabbri ever had in St. Louis, with one of Filppula or Nielsen at center, and one of Helm, Erne or Glendening on the other wing.

Since being promoted and playing with mostly capable linemates, Zadina has been very good (better than Fabbri) by just about every metric.

Zadina is better than Fabbri now, and will likely be MUCH better in the future. That should be exciting as a Red Wings fan, unless it means you might be wrong apparently...

Fabbri played less than 10 minutes a game in STL, but apparently you missed the entire point...

I DO NOT CARE IF HE PLAYED 20 MINUTES A NIGHT IN STL, I care what he does here.

Fabbri scores more at even strength than Zadina does for the Red Wings and no amount of your mental gymnastics is gonna change that lol

[krsmith17 7,191]

20 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Fabbri played less than 10 minutes a game in STL, but apparently you missed the entire point...

I DO NOT CARE IF HE PLAYED 20 MINUTES A NIGHT IN STL, I care what he does here.

Fabbri scores more at even strength than Zadina does for the Red Wings and no amount of your mental gymnastics is gonna change that lol

BUT YOU WOULD CARE IF HE PUT UP SIGNIFICANT POINTS IN STL... You "don't care", because those numbers skew his totals in a way that don't support your argument.

This all started because someone said Zadina has been better than Fabbri since being up with the Wings. That is true, and it does matter. No amount of your mental gymnastics is gonna change that LOL.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

BUT YOU WOULD CARE IF HE PUT UP SIGNIFICANT POINTS IN STL... You "don't care", because those numbers skew his totals in a way that don't support your argument.

No, I wouldn't.

4 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

This all started because someone said Zadina has been better than Fabbri since being up with the Wings. That is true, and it does matter. No amount of your mental gymnastics is gonna change that LOL.

Who scores more at even strength on this team? Fabbri

[marcaractac 3,963]

Based on this season:

Fabbri as a Red Wing: 0.68 ppg

Fabbri total: 0.56 ppg

Zadina as a Red Wing: 0.58 ppg

 

Based on the last 10 games:

Fabbri: 0.6 ppg

Zadina: 0.6 ppg

 

Fabbri has been the better offensive player this season so far. In the last 10 games, they are pretty well dead even. Zadina continues to improve. Fabbri is more experienced, and a really good player. You are both right, depending on how you approach the stats. You guys are clearly not gonna change each others minds. Maybe wait until they both have a larger sample size under their belt, and then return to the argument, in oh I don't know, the Fabbri vs Zadina thread?

 

So that Mantha kid... the point of this thread. It sucks he will still be out a while. But in the end, it favours Yzerman in contract negotiations.  

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Based on this season:

Fabbri as a Red Wing: 0.68 ppg

Fabbri total: 0.56 ppg

Zadina as a Red Wing: 0.58 ppg

 

Based on the last 10 games:

Fabbri: 0.6 ppg

Zadina: 0.6 ppg

 

Fabbri has been the better offensive player this season so far. In the last 10 games, they are pretty well dead even. Zadina continues to improve. Fabbri is more experienced, and a really good player. You are both right, depending on how you approach the stats. You guys are clearly not gonna change each others minds. Maybe wait until they both have a larger sample size under their belt, and then return to the argument, in oh I don't know, the Fabbri vs Zadina thread?

 

So that Mantha kid... the point of this thread. It sucks he will still be out a while. But in the end, it favours Yzerman in contract negotiations.  

Fabbri is gonna finish the season with more points than Mantha

If Mantha continues to be unable to stay healthy, Fabbri is the more valuable player.

[marcaractac 3,963]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Fabbri is gonna finish the season with more points than Mantha

If Mantha continues to be unable to stay healthy, Fabbri is the more valuable player.

I bet it would work out such that the team will still have won more games with Mantha in the lineup. That's speculative on my part, of course, based on the not terrible start to the season. 

Hopefully he has all his s*** luck injuries out of his system by the time he comes back. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by marcaractac

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

10 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I bet it would work out such that the team will still have won more games with Mantha in the lineup. That's speculative on my part, of course, based on the not terrible start to the season. 

We're 8-18-2 with Mantha
We're 4-17-1 without Mantha

So yeah we're better with Mantha of course, but if he doesn't play he's no good to us.

[krsmith17 7,191]

37 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

No, I wouldn't.

Whatever you say man...

37 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Who scores more at even strength on this team? Fabbri

Who has scored more at even strength since Zadina has been up (which, by the way, was the original point...)? Zadina.

It's also hilariously dumb to only look at even strength. Since when does power-play production not matter?

If Zadina were better on the power-play and even strength (which will likely be the case soon enough), but Fabbri scored more in the 2nd period, I'm sure you would be saying "bUt FaBbRi Is BeTtEr In 2nD pErIoDs"...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Whatever you say man...

You put the words in my mouth. That's a strawman.

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Whatever you say man...

Who has scored more at even strength since Zadina has been up (which, by the way, was the original point...)? Zadina.

Again. It's a bad premise. And I reject it for reasons stated.

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

If Zadina were better on the power-play and even strength (which will likely be the case soon enough), but Fabbri scored more in the 2nd period, I'm sure you would be saying "bUt FaBbRi Is BeTtEr In 2nD pErIoDs"...

Again putting words in my mouth. Another strawman.

Fact of the matter is Fabbri scores more at even strength. Speculate to the future all you like. But that's reality at the moment.

[krsmith17 7,191]

18 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Fact of the matter is Fabbri scores more at even strength.

Fact of the matter is Zadina has been better offensively (all situations).
WHICH WAS THE ORIGINAL POINT!

bUt FaBbRi ScOrEs MoRe At EvEn StReNgTh.
WHO CARES?

The only reason not to include power-play time when discussing offensive production, is if one player is getting significantly more power-play minutes. That isn't the case. As a matter of fact, Fabbri is getting slightly more even strength time as well as power-play time on ice per game.

bUt FaBbRi ScOrEs MoRe At EvEn StReNgTh.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

i WoUlD lOvE tO kNoW wHo tHe *** sTaRtEd ThIs TrEnD oF UpPeR lOwEr CaSe TyPiNg So I cAn PuNcH tHeM iN tHe ThRoAt

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Fact of the matter is Zadina has been better offensively (all situations).
WHICH WAS THE ORIGINAL POINT!

bUt FaBbRi ScOrEs MoRe At EvEn StReNgTh.
WHO CARES?

The only reason not to include power-play time when discussing offensive production, is if one player is getting significantly more power-play minutes. That isn't the case. As a matter of fact, Fabbri is getting slightly more even strength time as well as power-play time on ice per game.

bUt FaBbRi ScOrEs MoRe At EvEn StReNgTh.

You're beating a dead horse. I've acknowledged Zadina is the better PP man countless times in this thread.

I'll repeat myself for the 500th time, IMO a player who scores at even strength is a more valuable player than a PP specialist. Fabbri is the later and Zadina is the former. Therefore Fabbri > Zadina.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

How did this thread become so stupid and turn into the fabbri is better than anyone on our team no matter what you say 

if fabbri is our best player just relocate the team

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

i WoUlD lOvE tO kNoW wHo tHe *** sTaRtEd ThIs TrEnD oF UpPeR lOwEr CaSe TyPiNg So I cAn PuNcH tHeM iN tHe ThRoAt

He learned from @Dabura and I. We've created a monster.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

He learned from @Dabura and I. We've created a monster.

But you were not the inventors of this linguistic little treat though

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

But you were not the inventors of this linguistic little treat though

Oh no, SpongeBob invented it duh

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oh no, SpongeBob invented it duh

lol Srsly? 

I know nothing of SpongeBob. Seems cute enough though. I'll give him a pass. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You're beating a dead horse. I've acknowledged Zadina is the better PP man countless times in this thread.

But you haven't acknowledged that Zadina is better offensively, despite everything pointing toward that...

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'll repeat myself for the 500th time, IMO a player who scores at even strength is a more valuable player than a PP specialist. Fabbri is the later and Zadina is the former. Therefore Fabbri > Zadina.

Whatever you say bud...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

But you haven't acknowledged that Zadina is better offensively, despite everything pointing toward that...

He's not better offensively... at 5v5, Fabbri is

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Whatever you say bud...

When you run out of ammo

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

He's not better offensively... at 5v5, Fabbri is

Imagine thinking offensive production shouldn't include power-play...

11 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

When you run out of ammo

When the conversation gets too dumb to continue...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

48 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

lol Srsly? 

I know nothing of SpongeBob. Seems cute enough though. I'll give him a pass. 

Spongebob is one of the rare kids shows I can watch as an adult (not that I do) 

34 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Imagine thinking offensive production shouldn't include power-play...

Imagine looking deeper into offensive production and who produces where and in what situations to gain a deeper understanding of how these players play and what their attributes and abilities are. You should try it.

If you prefer PP specialists to 5v5 producers just come out and say it. No one besides me is gonna shame you.

[krsmith17 7,191]

28 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Imagine looking deeper into offensive production and who produces where and in what situations to gain a deeper understanding of how these players play and what their attributes and abilities are. You should try it.

30 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

If you prefer PP specialists to 5v5 producers just come out and say it. No one besides me is gonna shame you.

"Zadina is a power-play specialist" is where your whole dumb argument falls apart...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Let's add some more stats:

In terms of the PP, the best point producers on the team adjusted for 60 are:

1. Zadina
2. Fabbri
3. Mantha
4. Athanasiou
5. Bertuzzi
6. Larkin

In terms of 5v5, the best point producers on the team adjusted for 60 are:

1. Mantha
2. Bertuzzi
3. Fabbri
4. Larkin
5. Zadina
6. Smith

In terms of PP, the best goal scorers on the team adjusted for 60 are:

1. Zadina
2. Fabbri
3. Mantha
4. Larkin
5. Athanasiou
6. Bertuzzi

In terms of 5v5, the best goal scorers on the team adjusted for 60 are:

1. Bertuzzi
2. Smith
3. Mantha
4. Zadina
5. Fabbri
6. Helm

In terms of PP, the best primary assists on the team adjusted for 60 are:

1. Athansiou
2. Bertuzzi
3. Nielsen
4. Larkin
5. Zadina
6. Fabbri

In terms of 5v5, the best primary assists on the team adjusted for 60 are:

1. Fabbri
2. Mantha
3. Larkin
4. Zadina
5. Filppula
6. Bertuzzi

Conclusions:

• Zadina is far n away the best PP man on the team, but that production takes a dip compared to his peers during 5v5 play. He's also primarily a goal-scorer.
• Mantha is the best offensive player on the team and is top 3 in nearly every situational stat.
• Fabbri is one of the the best 5v5 players on the team, and is also very good on the PP, he's primarily a setup man.
• Bertuzzi is one of the best 5v5 players on the team, and while more of a goal scorer during 5v5, he's become very good as a setup man on the PP.
• Larkin doesn't seem to be particularly good at anything this year compared to his peers, and actually falls off the chart behind Darren Helm in 5v5 goals per 60. Yikes.
• Athanasiou is like Larkin but even worse.
• Givani Smith is sneaking his way up some of these stat rankings already

19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

"Zadina is a power-play specialist" is where your whole dumb argument falls apart...

His offensive stats are massively inflated by the PP. He's leaps and bounds ahead of everyone on the PP. Take that away and Givani Smith is creeping up the board to catch him. Just run some numbers dude it's not hard.

[krsmith17 7,191]

26 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

His offensive stats are massively inflated by the PP. He's leaps and bounds ahead of everyone on the PP. Take that away and Givani Smith is creeping up the board to catch him. Just run some numbers dude it's not hard.

The power-play is part of a players offensive stats though. That's why your argument is dumb. 

I'm done with this.