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The 91 of Ryans

2020 Trade Deadline Thread (aka Veleno vs Rasmussen vs Fabbri vs Zadina)

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I think some of you guys are way too short sighted and/or don't know how asset management works, specifically when it involves players.

As an example: Daley is worth a 5th round pick. As much as people thinks he sucks, he's still a veteran NHL defenseman, which has some value. 

If no one is interested in trading a 5th for him, you have 2 options. 1: Stand pat and hold on to him. Or 2: trade him for a lesser value.

A lot of you would choose the latter. Trade all the past-their-prime vets for peanuts if you have to. Just get rid of them. There's one problem with that. Yzerman would develop a bad reputation among the players.

In 5 years or so when this team needs to acquire better players thru free agency or trade, why would they want to come here?

A big name player may fear signing a big contract to play in Detroit out of fear that Yzerman will just dump him for a bag of pucks once his play no longer matches his pay, which often happens towards the end of long term contracts. As a result, players with NMC may refuse a trade to come here. UFAs may insist on a NMC in their contract because they don't trust Yzerman not to do that to them as well. They may demand more money or just not sign with the Wings at all.

How does that benefit the long term success of this team at all?

Players are not lifeless objects. They're human beings. The more you treat them like "things" and less like people, the less likely they are to want to work for you. That's not to say that a GM should be a pushover, a good GM isn't. But you have to be able to juggle what's best for the team with what's best for the players.

And getting a 7th round draft pick for guys like Daley would be insulting, and the short term benefit to the team wouldn't be worth it in the long run.

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8 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I think some of you guys are way too short sighted and/or don't know how asset management works, specifically when it involves players.

As an example: Daley is worth a 5th round pick. As much as people thinks he sucks, he's still a veteran NHL defenseman, which has some value. 

If no one is interested in trading a 5th for him, you have 2 options. 1: Stand pat and hold on to him. Or 2: trade him for a lesser value.

A lot of you would choose the latter. Trade all the past-their-prime vets for peanuts if you have to. Just get rid of them. There's one problem with that. Yzerman would develop a bad reputation among the players.

In 5 years or so when this team needs to acquire better players thru free agency or trade, why would they want to come here?

A big name player may fear signing a big contract to play in Detroit out of fear that Yzerman will just dump him for a bag of pucks once his play no longer matches his pay, which often happens towards the end of long term contracts. As a result, players with NMC may refuse a trade to come here. UFAs may insist on a NMC in their contract because they don't trust Yzerman not to do that to them as well. They may demand more money or just not sign with the Wings at all.

How does that benefit the long term success of this team at all?

Players are not lifeless objects. They're human beings. The more you treat them like "things" and less like people, the less likely they are to want to work for you. That's not to say that a GM should be a pushover, a good GM isn't. But you have to be able to juggle what's best for the team with what's best for the players.

And getting a 7th round draft pick for guys like Daley would be insulting, and the short term benefit to the team wouldn't be worth it in the long run.

Yes , nobody will want to come play here cause trevor daley only returned a 7th back ... nobody wanted him pure and simple

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7 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I think some of you guys are way too short sighted and/or don't know how asset management works, specifically when it involves players.

As an example: Daley is worth a 5th round pick. As much as people thinks he sucks, he's still a veteran NHL defenseman, which has some value. 

If no one is interested in trading a 5th for him, you have 2 options. 1: Stand pat and hold on to him. Or 2: trade him for a lesser value.

A lot of you would choose the latter. Trade all the past-their-prime vets for peanuts if you have to. Just get rid of them. There's one problem with that. Yzerman would develop a bad reputation among the players.

In 5 years or so when this team needs to acquire better players thru free agency or trade, why would they want to come here?

A big name player may fear signing a big contract to play in Detroit out of fear that Yzerman will just dump him for a bag of pucks once his play no longer matches his pay, which often happens towards the end of long term contracts. As a result, players with NMC may refuse a trade to come here. UFAs may insist on a NMC in their contract because they don't trust Yzerman not to do that to them as well. They may demand more money or just not sign with the Wings at all.

How does that benefit the long term success of this team at all?

Players are not lifeless objects. They're human beings. The more you treat them like "things" and less like people, the less likely they are to want to work for you. That's not to say that a GM should be a pushover, a good GM isn't. But you have to be able to juggle what's best for the team with what's best for the players.

And getting a 7th round draft pick for guys like Daley would be insulting, and the short term benefit to the team wouldn't be worth it in the long run.

Except, in this case, most are going to a team that is significantly higher up in the standings. You play for a paycheck, but to make it day in and day out in the NHL, you play to win. You think these guys are oblivious to where the team is in the standings or what they mean to the team after the next 60 days?

Get out of here. No way a player chooses not to sign with the Red Wings because at the final eight weeks of their contract, the team might be way out of contention and trade them. Because the next set of 4 and 5 year contracts better be finishing up their season with three or four more series.

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25 minutes ago, freshy said:

Stevie did what he could with what he has to work with, which is bottom of the league garbage. AA was never going to factor into our long term plans. It's a shame, because he does have that offensive flair. He doesn't have the attitude that is needed though. That is the thing I trust most about the Captain. He is a winner, and he knows what it takes to win. He is getting a feel for the players and their attitudes like he mentioned in his presser. AA may go to Edmonton & light it up next to McDavid. So what? By all accounts his attitude is s*** and putting up offensive numbers will only take you so far. Just look at Taylor Hall or  look at when Stevie himself was putting up big numbers. We couldn't win s*** back then. 

Trust in his plan. The guy has only been on the job for 10 months for chrisake. He was a major reason for the turn around of this franchise back in the 80's and he will get us back to where we need to be. 

I don't care at all about AA. I was expecting one 2nd rounder for him, so I'm happy about the return Holland gave us. AA sucks and everything points to his attitude sucking as well since the day we drafted him. We should have sold high on him, but Yzerman had to have his precious "observation year" I'm not mad about it though.

"Trust the yzerplan" is the meme of the year. I don't buy in. Yzerman is just a business man same as Holland and I judge their moves equally. IMHO Holland was doing an excellent job rebuilding once the streak ended and he was no longer handcuffed to maintaining that record. The most true nugget of wisdom I have in my smooth-brain is that the majority of the purpose that Yzerman was brought in is marketing.

Look at what his hiring accomplished. We have just witnessed the worst season in 700 years of Red Wings history and everyone for the most part is "okay" and on-board with what the team is doing. Would that same attitude maintain this year under Holland? Certainly not. The fanbase had already turned on him. So the Illitche's have lulled you all into being docile good-boy fans by hiring your favorite old player. Now they can rest easy and continue to suck for the next 5-10 years and you won't say s*** about it cause you "trust duh yzerguy plan"

Don't get me wrong, Holland has made his mistakes, and Yzerman made a lot of good moves in Tampa. He's a good GM. But I will not sit here and talk out the side of my neck and tell you Yzerman had a great season. After drafting Seider and trading for Fabbri there's a whole lotta garbage and nothing.

Are my expectations too high? I don't think so. I expect to at least field a team that plays with pride, grinds, and fights for it, even if we lose a lot. We didn't do that. We were a joke. A mess. A big fat mistake. If we're going to let go a GM of Holland's tenure and success, I expect the replacement to be impressive in ability. I haven't seen that in Yzerman (yet). I hoped he would bring a new angle and creativity that Hollland lacked, but it's clear to me now he intends to do pretty much the same stuff and slog through the next 5-10 years of drafts. That''s fine, just a bit disappointing.

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8 minutes ago, _SP_ said:

Except, in this case, most are going to a team that is significantly higher up in the standings. You play for a paycheck, but to make it day in and day out in the NHL, you play to win. You think these guys are oblivious to where the team is in the standings or what they mean to the team after the next 60 days?

Get out of here. No way a player chooses not to sign with the Red Wings because at the final eight weeks of their contract, the team might be way out of contention and trade them. Because the next set of 4 and 5 year contracts better be finishing up their season with three or four more series.

You're assuming that going to a "better" team is always in the best interest of the player, or what the player will want. That's not always the case. Some guys don't want to be traded to greener pastures.

A lot of veteran players have established strong ties to the cities they're living in. It may not be worth it to them to uproot their families for a mild chance at winning a Cup somewhere else. Especially if they've already won. They may prefer to stay where they are. That might be one of those times where it's smarter for a GM to do what's right by the player rather than get a very small asset for his team.

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1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

2020:

  • Brodziak + pick (EDM) for Green (DET)
  • Backes + prospect + pick (BOS) for Kase (ANA)

2019:

  • Callahan + pick (TBL) for Condon + pick (OTT)
  • Clarkson + pick (VGK) for Sparks (TOR)
  • Marleau + pick + pick (TOR) for pick (CAR)

2018:

  • Hossa + Oesterle + Vinastroza + pick (CHI) for Kruger + Entwhisle + Maletta + Campbell + pick (ARI)
  • Gaborik + Shore (LA) for Phaneuf + Thompson (OTT)

2017:

  • Clarkson + pick + pick (TOR) for considerations (VGK)

2016:

  • Bolland + Crouse (FLA) for pick + pick (ARI)
  • Datsyuk + pick (DET) for Vitale + pick +pick (ARI)
  • Bickell + Tervainen (CAR) for pick + pick (CHI)
  • Savard + pick (FLA) for Black + Thompson (NJD)
  • Phaneuf + Frattin + Rupert + Donaghey + Bailey (TOR) for Cowen + Michalek + Lindberg + Greening + pick (OTT)

? I don't care at all if the deal is large and complicated or small and simple.

You don't know that Kase was their first choice at all fella

First off and for the 100th time, your list is wrong.  Many of these are deals for value + a dump, that is not what I am talking about.

But even if your list is correct, what are you complaining about, you have 2 examples in 2020 and Yzerman was one of them.  Seems like he did a great job.

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6 minutes ago, greenrebellion said:

First off and for the 100th time, your list is wrong.  Many of these are deals for value + a dump, that is not what I am talking about.

I've already addressed this. I don't why you're making the stipulation that a cap dump cant also involve value. That distinction matters very little to me.

9 minutes ago, greenrebellion said:

But even if your list is correct, what are you complaining about, you have 2 examples in 2020 and Yzerman was one of them.  Seems like he did a great job.

With Brodziak? I would rather have the non-retired version of him than the weaponized cap version of him. Stevie has taken on his $1 mil+ payroll and that's it. It's a start, but with $14 million in extra cap right now, I'm disappointed he chose to weaponize a pocket knife and not a nuke.

It also remains to be said that Yzerman is walking into an internal post-season with 8,000 RFAs he has to re-sign. I recognize a somewhat need to keep the books open and clear.

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Then why hold on to him? What's the benefit of keeping a clearly defeated horrible coach in the room? There isn't one. He's presiding over a record bad season, his players seem to have no confidence in him or themselves, and Yzerman has done nothing about this. Many other teams have fired coaches for far less this season. And yet Jeff is allowed to keep stirring his dump heap.

Again, its an evaluation year.  What would firing Blashill in the middle of the year accomplish?  Maybe they win a few more games.  Bylsma would probably be the interim head coach and you probably wouldn't want him going forward, so you bring in another coach in the offseason.  You really think giving a young team 3 different coaches in the span of a year is a good idea?  Let him ride it out, see if he can work through it and if he can't (and I don't think he will), move on.

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Oh thank god we have Bernier. Now the last 18 games will be 5-13-0 instead of 2-16-0. Thank god.

As if winning matters anyway. The season is shot. Get your picks. Winning means nothing.

People complained about Yzerman getting robbed by trading AA for 2 second rounders.  Teams aren't going to give up much for what would be their backup goalie.  If Bernier gets traded for a 6th round pick, people would be complaining "Yzerman got fleeced!".  But since he didn't trade him, now its "What an idiot!  Winning doesn't matter anymore"  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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You know it, I know it. If Ken Holland had traded Regula for Perlini, or made any of these other pointless losing trades, folks would be pulling their hair out demanding Holland's head. But it's Yzerman and everyone has so much blood rushing out of their brains and into their boners over this guy that everyone just looks the other way on objectively bad trades.

Yzerman should be held to the same level of accountability that Holland was. No free passes.

Holland's trades, signings and draft picks is why we're in this situation in the first place.  Over the past ten years, Holland has slowly destroyed the Wings.  Over the past ten years, Yzerman took a franchise that was in a rebuild and made them one of the top teams in the league.  When you're one of the best GMs in hockey over the past 10 years, yes you get free passes.  Not forever, but at this point, less than one year into his job as Wings GM, yes he does.

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True or false? You're full of excuses?

Not excuses.  Just talking crazy people off the ledge. :lol:

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Are you giving the Yzerman-pass on Nemeth and Fil then too? IDK why Holland signed Abdelkader to that ridiculous deal, but its his job to know better than us...

Yes I am.  Holland did make a mistake signing Abby to that deal and it IS his job to know better than us.  He didn't do his job well and hadn't been doing his job well for sometime.  As I mentioned earlier, if Stevie makes these bad signings/trades/draft picks for a few years, then yes, he deserves any and all heat.  Until then, like Yzerman said, be patient.

Quote

So grade the season then

Based on what criteria?  They have the worst record in the NHL, so are we supposed to give them an F?  We knew they were not going to be good this year before the season even started, so maybe we give them a C?  We're in a rebuilding year, evaluating what we have from players to coaches and I'm sure the front office has learned a lot, which is what their goal was from the start.  So do we give them an A?  Their really isn't way to "grade the season" seeing as how different people within the franchise had different goals.

 

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I don't think it's that unreasonable to expect the GM to take meaningful steps toward improving his team (when it's this bad) each season.  Landing a quality prospect with your first pick is almost the least you can do.  Trading De La Rose for Fabbri was almost the least you could do (there isn't a fan on earth that would not have made that trade too).  Acquiring more 2nd and 3rd rounders was something Holland was ALREADY doing. But more Robert Mastrosimones and Antti Tuomistos and Albert Johansons aren't going to change this franchise's fortunes. 

Going forward Steve needs to do a few things.  First, recognize that if this rebuild is going to take as long as you're saying then you need to get high returns for Bert and Mantha now and get those prospects/picks developing.  How good is Mantha going to be in another 8 years?  Bert?  They aren't stars now, let alone in their 30s.  Move them for 1sts and high quality prospects now.

Second, he MUST become better at asset management in general.  You can't throw away Regula or Kaski for nothing.  If they don't fit into your plans, you package them with a veteran at the deadline and get a decent pick. Regula and Helm/Glendening is likely a very attractive package for a playoff team. Likewise you HAVE to trade Fabbri. He's a free asset that is probably only a 3rd line player on a competitive team. He's replaceable. If Barclay Goodrow and a 3rd gets you a 1st, then Fabbri and a pick gets you what? 

3rd, Yzerman HAS to start trading things of value.  If you're not willing to trade valuable players, and nobody wants bad players, what  does that leave you?  UFAs and guys like AA. And you're not likely to change your fortunes on what you'll get from those returns.  In the run up to this deadline ten 1st round picks were traded, along with a number of high end prospects (including Nolan Foote, Calen Addison, and Tyler Madden).  That's more than any year in recent memory.  We received none of those assets.  That can't happen.

4th, weaponize your cap space.  I'm going to wait and see on this one because this generally tends to happen in the off season.  But Yzerman had a boat load of cap space last offseason and did nothing with it.  We've seen time and again the value this has for competitive teams who need the space in for free agency.  We cannot go another year without taking advantage of this as our cap payroll is going to start increasing before too long with Bert, Mantha, Hronek, Fabbri all needing new (more valuable) deals soon and a bunch of high quality youngsters poised to start integrating into the team before long. 

 

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3 hours ago, xtrememachine1 said:

Again, its an evaluation year.  What would firing Blashill in the middle of the year accomplish?  Maybe they win a few more games.  Bylsma would probably be the interim head coach and you probably wouldn't want him going forward, so you bring in another coach in the offseason.  You really think giving a young team 3 different coaches in the span of a year is a good idea?  Let him ride it out, see if he can work through it and if he can't (and I don't think he will), move on.

I think a changing to a new HC would do more good than harm at this point. Even if it's just Bylsma for the time being. Simply put; things can't get any worse, so there's really no harm to be done. These players gave up on Blash long ago.

3 hours ago, xtrememachine1 said:

People complained about Yzerman getting robbed by trading AA for 2 second rounders.  Teams aren't going to give up much for what would be their backup goalie.  If Bernier gets traded for a 6th round pick, people would be complaining "Yzerman got fleeced!".  But since he didn't trade him, now its "What an idiot!  Winning doesn't matter anymore"  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I have no complaints about the AA trade or not trading Bernier, and I'll bite my tongue a little until after the draft and FA opening up.

When you have a team this bad, my philosophy tends to be burn it all down.

If the team was busting their nuts, taking games to OT, and generally showing progress but still losing, I'd be A-Okay with this deadline result. But instead we are on pace to have about a 20 win season, 40 pts, and a -150 goal differential. Sell every expiring contract and just restart this team for all I care.

3 hours ago, xtrememachine1 said:

Holland's trades, signings and draft picks is why we're in this situation in the first place.  Over the past ten years, Holland has slowly destroyed the Wings.  Over the past ten years, Yzerman took a franchise that was in a rebuild and made them one of the top teams in the league.  When you're one of the best GMs in hockey over the past 10 years, yes you get free passes.  Not forever, but at this point, less than one year into his job as Wings GM, yes he does.

No doubt, but Holland 180ed that as soon as he was no longer handcuffed to keeping the streak alive.

Yzerman gets no free passes from me. I'm not gonna pretend selling low on an RFA and selling an aged out old Dman is some great TDL simply because the man is "new". It's a lackluster TDL. Do I want Yzerman canned for that? Certainly not, it's his first year. But maybe I expect a bit more at the draft and FA now...

3 hours ago, xtrememachine1 said:

Yes I am.  Holland did make a mistake signing Abby to that deal and it IS his job to know better than us.  He didn't do his job well and hadn't been doing his job well for sometime.  As I mentioned earlier, if Stevie makes these bad signings/trades/draft picks for a few years, then yes, he deserves any and all heat.  Until then, like Yzerman said, be patient.

I think we can easily call the Fil and Nemeth signings bad ones already. Neither of these players are worth anywhere close to $3 mil AAV this year, and they certainly won't be worth that next year either. They contribute to the team in almost no meaningful way. Sure Nemeth is a warm body, but he's like the 93 Honda that's been sitting in your backyard for the past 10 years, and now you have to take that to work. She starts, sure, but there's bees living in it and no power-steering. It drives but it's probably worth $50 of scrap money.

Are these contracts as bad as Abby's? No, but Yzerman doesn't get his sins washed away because his predecessor did a worse one.

3 hours ago, xtrememachine1 said:

Based on what criteria?  They have the worst record in the NHL, so are we supposed to give them an F?  We knew they were not going to be good this year before the season even started, so maybe we give them a C?  We're in a rebuilding year, evaluating what we have from players to coaches and I'm sure the front office has learned a lot, which is what their goal was from the start.  So do we give them an A?  Their really isn't way to "grade the season" seeing as how different people within the franchise had different goals.

I think you can grade on expectation, and I certainly expected to have a bad team, just not THIS BAD.

When I look at the teams record and team stats, I don't think I can possibly give a favorable grade, even if my expectations were low.

When I look at the moves Yzerman made to correct this and/or push the rebuild forward, I'd give about a C. I'm about the Fabbri trade, but the rest of his moves aren't impressive and some I'd even call bad. We failed to acquire another 1st in a basement year, weaponize cap, and no coaching change isn't high on my list either. I think a meh C grade is deserving.

I give the season a D

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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Coming in to this season I expected very little from Yzerman and that's mostly what he delivered. 

IMO he just made his first real trade yesterday and it was a little boring but also probably quite fair. 

The Fabbri deal was good. The Perlini deal was less good. None of the other trades matter much. 

What more do you want.....

I give the season a "Z - " and Yzerman gets a "C" just by association. But this is not really his team yet either, so it's sort of an incomplete grade. 

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Fun Fact: After the Colorado Avalanche posted a era worst 22 win season in 2017 they got creative and traded one of their best young players (Duchene) in a three way deal with Ottawa and Nashville, which yielded them (among other things):

1st (Bowen Byram)

2nd (Traded for starting goalie Philipp Grubaur)

Samual Girard (.5 ppg defenseman)

Shane Bowers (top prospect for the organization)

Vladislav Kamanev (top prospect for the organization)

 

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7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Fun Fact: After the Colorado Avalanche posted a era worst 22 win season in 2017 they got creative and traded one of their best young players (Duchene) in a three way deal with Ottawa and Nashville, which yielded them (among other things):

1st (Bowen Byram)

2nd (Traded for starting goalie Philipp Grubaur)

Samual Girard (.5 ppg defenseman)

Shane Bowers (top prospect for the organization)

Vladislav Kamanev (top prospect for the organization)

 

So, lets trade Mantha?

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7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Fun Fact: After the Colorado Avalanche posted a era worst 22 win season in 2017 they got creative and traded one of their best young players (Duchene) in a three way deal with Ottawa and Nashville, which yielded them (among other things):

1st (Bowen Byram)

2nd (Traded for starting goalie Philipp Grubaur)

Samual Girard (.5 ppg defenseman)

Shane Bowers (top prospect for the organization)

Vladislav Kamanev (top prospect for the organization)

 

If only we'd have a Duchene...

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Just now, The 91 of Ryans said:

If only we had a MacKinnon

What's that have to do with anything?  Duchene requested a trade out of Colorado.  He was getting traded with or without MacKinnon and he STILL got that kind of return. 

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