Goal GOAT Poll

[kipwinger 8,522]

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

People who talk about hockey history and compare player accomplishments.  You've never heard anyone compare players and mention how many Hart trophies or Vezinas someone won?  Same with Richard trophies.      

Are they the same people who discount statistical differences, adjusted scoring rates, and obvious systematic differences like butterfly-style goaltending?  Because I think you're just talking about yourself at this point. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

People who talk about hockey history and compare player accomplishments.  You've never heard anyone compare players and mention how many Hart trophies or Vezinas someone won?  Same with Richard trophies.      

Technically Gretsky, Lemieux, and Hull have never won Richard trophies...

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Are they the same people who discount statistical differences, adjusted scoring rates, and obvious systematic differences like butterfly-style goaltending?  Because I think you're just talking about yourself at this point. 

Adjusted scoring has a lot of problems.  Never been a complete fan of that.  

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Technically Gretsky, Lemieux, and Hull have never won Richard trophies...

Nor Richard for that matter.  Dude never even won his own trophy.  

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Adjusted scoring has a lot of problems.  Never been a complete fan of that. 

What's the problem with it?

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Nor Richard for that matter.  Dude never even won his own trophy.  

In terms of goal scoring titles thou Ovie has the most, and may even add to it yet.

[kliq 3,755]

19 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What's the problem with it?

In terms of goal scoring titles thou Ovie has the most, and may even add to it yet.

His consistency is ridiculous, as it stands now (not including tonights games) he's only 2 down from Pastrnak with 45 goals. I could see him getting his 9th win this year.

[kipwinger 8,522]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

In terms of goal scoring titles thou Ovie has the most, and may even add to it yet.

I mean, yeah, sure.  But make Ovi slower, and weaker, and stupider, and give him a stick he's never used before, and the original prototype ice skates, and play according to a totally different set of rules, and then tell me how good he is!

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I mean, yeah, sure.  But make Ovi slower, and weaker, and stupider, and give him a stick he's never used before, and the original prototype ice skates, and play according to a totally different set of rules, and then tell me how good he is!

Most I've learned from this thread is that ppl were 2-3 inches shorter in the 80s and now top gun makes sense

[kipwinger 8,522]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Most I've learned from this thread is that ppl were 2-3 inches shorter in the 80s and now top gun makes sense

It's true. The further back you go the littler everyone gets. Lot of people don't know this, but the Revolutionary War was fought by literal munchkins. George Washington, for instance, was only about a foot and a half tall.  But considering everyone else averaged about 11 inches in height you can see why he always looks so big in those paintings.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

It's true. The further back you go the littler everyone gets. Lot of people don't know this, but the Revolutionary War was fought by literal munchkins. George Washington, for instance, was only about a foot and a half tall.  But considering everyone else averaged about 11 inches in height you can see why he always looks so big in those paintings.

I imagine if Ovechkin ever found a wood stick he would be utterly baffled by it. Like a Chimpanzee seeing fire for the first time. Gretsky would be potting his 92nd goal while Ovie confusingly screeches at the piece of strange wood.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

11 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

It's true. The further back you go the littler everyone gets. Lot of people don't know this, but the Revolutionary War was fought by literal munchkins. George Washington, for instance, was only about a foot and a half tall.  But considering everyone else averaged about 11 inches in height you can see why he always looks so big in those paintings.

James Madison weighed less than 100 lbs.  

[kipwinger 8,522]

4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

James Madison weighed less than 100 lbs.  

Guarantee you weigh about the same, beta boy.

Edited March 6, 2020 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

James Madison weighed less than 100 lbs.  

IDK why but I literally loled at this pretty hard lol

[kliq 3,755]

Update, Ovie scored 2 more tonight. He's tied for the league lead.

[kipwinger 8,522]

7 minutes ago, kliq said:

Update, Ovie scored 2 more tonight. He's tied for the league lead.

yeah but how many times has be won the Masterson trophy?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

8 minutes ago, kliq said:

Update, Ovie scored 2 more tonight. He's tied for the league lead.

On pace for 58 goals now. It is pretty cool that we are witnessing one of the best goal scorers of all time right now.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

56 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Guarantee you weigh about the same, beta boy.

LOL.  Those are big words coming from an Obama supporter.

[kipwinger 8,522]

 

You mean this guy?  Yeah, he's totally lame, and definitely doesn't bang way hotter chicks than you.  Nice try, simp.

[kliq 3,755]

Oh boi, well this thread officially went off the rails.

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 hours ago, kliq said:

Oh boi, well this thread officially went off the rails.

It always does when POS gets involved...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

It always does when POS gets involved...

BOS hasn't been around in months

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

BOS hasn't been around in months

Yeah, unfortunately POS has...

[toby91_ca 620]

On 3/3/2020 at 3:20 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

And by the time he turned 26 (1988) his goal scoring average dropped to about 40 per season.
Then once the dead puck era started (1993) when he was 31 his average dropped to about 28 per season.

Gretsky only led the league in goals scored 4 times in his career.

Richard did the same 5 times
Howe did the same 5 times
Esposito did the same 6 times
Bobby Hull did the same 7 times
Ovechkin has done the same 8 times (a record), and he's in the hunt to do it again at 34 years old. If he does it I believe that will make him the oldest player to lead the league in goals since Gordie Howe in 1963. He's doing all this at an older age then Gretsky, in a decreased scoring leage that a younger Wayne could only manage to average 28 goals a season in.

The great 8 baby
 

 

I think Gretzky lead the league 5 times, not 4.  At the same time, I've never really thought about him as the best goal scorer because that was not the type of player he was.  He put up huge goal totals just because he was that good....but goal scoring was secondary for him (same for Mario, but to a lesser extent).  So I'm somewhat biased into thinking Bossy and Ovechkin are better goal scorers simply because that's their game.  I mean, Ovechkin has 700ish goals and 570 assists.  When Gretzky had 700 goals, his assist total was 1,400+....so you look at it a bit different.

To set the record straight a bit on Gretzky's stats though, his goal scoring didn't go down that much at 26....yes, he scored 40 goals that year, but only in 64 games, he scored 54 in 78 games the next year, then 41 in 73 games the following year.  The biggest turning point in his career was when he was 30 and got hit from behind into the boards by Gary Suter (international play).  He was never the same player after that.  His goal scoring (because as I suggested, was secondary) seemed to take the biggest hit.

All that said, I think Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer, most pure goal scorer.  I would have liked to see what Bossy could have done if his career wasn't cut short.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, toby91_ca said:

I think Gretzky lead the league 5 times, not 4.  At the same time, I've never really thought about him as the best goal scorer because that was not the type of player he was.  He put up huge goal totals just because he was that good....but goal scoring was secondary for him (same for Mario, but to a lesser extent).  So I'm somewhat biased into thinking Bossy and Ovechkin are better goal scorers simply because that's their game.  I mean, Ovechkin has 700ish goals and 570 assists.  When Gretzky had 700 goals, his assist total was 1,400+....so you look at it a bit different.

To set the record straight a bit on Gretzky's stats though, his goal scoring didn't go down that much at 26....yes, he scored 40 goals that year, but only in 64 games, he scored 54 in 78 games the next year, then 41 in 73 games the following year.  The biggest turning point in his career was when he was 30 and got hit from behind into the boards by Gary Suter (international play).  He was never the same player after that.  His goal scoring (because as I suggested, was secondary) seemed to take the biggest hit.

All that said, I think Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer, most pure goal scorer.  I would have liked to see what Bossy could have done if his career wasn't cut short.

I'm sorry you're correct, he led 5 seasons, not 4.

Absolutely agree with you though. Comparing Gretsky to Ovechkin is like comparing Yzerman to Hull. For the former it was about playing a complete playmaking game where goals naturally just came, and for the later it was about a hyper-focus on goal scoring.

That stylistic difference alone leads me to somewhat of a bias towards Ovi, Bossy, Hull types.

If you look at the graphs I posted, Gretsky was on a pretty steady downward trend in goal scoring adjusted per game after the early 80s. His career looks like it has 3 stages: Early 20s beyond human. Late 20s human, but still the GOAT. 30s dead puck era and post Suter, great player but nowhere near his former self. Ovechkin on the other hand is seemingly immune to age and wear and tear like Howe was. His consistency in goal scoring is flat out remarkable.

[toby91_ca 620]

22 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm sorry you're correct, he led 5 seasons, not 4.

Absolutely agree with you though. Comparing Gretsky to Ovechkin is like comparing Yzerman to Hull. For the former it was about playing a complete playmaking game where goals naturally just came, and for the later it was about a hyper-focus on goal scoring.

That stylistic difference alone leads me to somewhat of a bias towards Ovi, Bossy, Hull types.

If you look at the graphs I posted, Gretsky was on a pretty steady downward trend in goal scoring adjusted per game after the early 80s. His career looks like it has 3 stages: Early 20s beyond human. Late 20s human, but still the GOAT. 30s dead puck era and post Suter, great player but nowhere near his former self. Ovechkin on the other hand is seemingly immune to age and wear and tear like Howe was. His consistency in goal scoring is flat out remarkable.

You're correct on Ovechkin's consistency, but I wonder if a lot of that has to do with the league as well.  Pre-injury, while Gretzky's goal scoring decreased in late 80s, I wonder how much is him vs. league.....i.e. where his totals compare against competition?  It doesn't matter that much though, I don't have him at the top of my list....maybe unfairly though?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, toby91_ca said:

You're correct on Ovechkin's consistency, but I wonder if a lot of that has to do with the league as well.  Pre-injury, while Gretzky's goal scoring decreased in late 80s, I wonder how much is him vs. league.....i.e. where his totals compare against competition?  It doesn't matter that much though, I don't have him at the top of my list....maybe unfairly though?

I'm prone to saying the league was changing in the late 80s, leading into the dead-puck era of the 90s (and it was), and that that's a viable excuse for Gretky's decreased goal scoring. But then Lemieux begins his tear in 1986 and completely blows that out of the water. If Gretsky was the sniper folks purport him to be his numbers would have stayed up, but they didn't.