Goal GOAT Poll

[kipwinger 7,644]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm prone to saying the league was changing in the late 80s, leading into the dead-puck era of the 90s (and it was), and that that's a viable excuse for Gretky's decreased goal scoring. But then Lemieux begins his tear in 1986 and completely blows that out of the water. If Gretsky was the sniper folks purport him to be his numbers would have stayed up, but they didn't.

Hmmmm...what big event in the late 80s could have led to a pretty significant drop in his point production?  Let me think for a sec.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Hmmmm...what big event in the late 80s could have led to a pretty significant drop in his point production?  Let me think for a sec.

Meh Gretsky was already returning to earth in 1985. Three years removed from the THE TRADE

[Scott R Lucidi 174]

20 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Meh Gretsky was already returning to earth in 1985. Three years removed from the THE TRADE

What awes me is that older Gretsky sucking in the dead puck era was a 90 pt season.  GOAT

Edited March 7, 2020 by Scott R Lucidi

[kliq 3,753]

For anyone trying to claim that it wasnt easier to score in the 80's, even Gretzky himself admits it.

 

[Scott R Lucidi 174]

11 hours ago, kliq said:

For anyone trying to claim that it wasnt easier to score in the 80's, even Gretzky himself admits it.

 

They need to sit closer.

[mackel 526]

@ChristopherReevesLegs how do I set up a poll?  I've got a.good one in mind... 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, mackel said:

@ChristopherReevesLegs how do I set up a poll?  I've got a.good one in mind... 

Is it "Which Red Wings Prospect is the Biggest Bust?"

1.Zadina

2. Cholowski

3. Zadina

4. Zadina

5. Hampus Melen

Edited March 8, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[mackel 526]

46 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Is it "Which Red Wings Prospect is the Biggest Bust?"

1.Zadina

2. Cholowski

3. Zadina

4. Zadina

5. Hampus Melen

Nope but the answer to the above is 1, 3 or 4.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

19 hours ago, mackel said:

@ChristopherReevesLegs how do I set up a poll?  I've got a.good one in mind... 

>Start New Topic

Then when it opens up your new topic you will be under a tab called "content" from their you can hit the see-through tab next to it called "poll"

Should be pretty straight forward from there. Just have to pick a buncha random titles and also put something in the content section.

[toby91_ca 620]

On 3/6/2020 at 1:54 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Meh Gretsky was already returning to earth in 1985. Three years removed from the THE TRADE

He was accumulating more assists than anyone else had points back in 85/86.....as I say, I just think he wasn't really a pure goal scorer, he was just a good hockey player and he scored when he needed to, but more often than not, looked to set up others.

Moving to LA didn't really impact his production, it really was the hit from behind from Gary Suter in the 1991 Canada Cup....that had a significant impact on his production for the rest of his career (he was only 30 years old at the time as well....his numbers could have been even higher than they are).

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

27 minutes ago, toby91_ca said:

He was accumulating more assists than anyone else had points back in 85/86.....as I say, I just think he wasn't really a pure goal scorer, he was just a good hockey player and he scored when he needed to, but more often than not, looked to set up others.

Moving to LA didn't really impact his production, it really was the hit from behind from Gary Suter in the 1991 Canada Cup....that had a significant impact on his production for the rest of his career (he was only 30 years old at the time as well....his numbers could have been even higher than they are).

I was speaking specifically about goals. No question his assist numbers are insane. But I agree, Gretsky does not fit into the mold of "goal scorer" IMO even though he scored a lot of goals.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Gretzky... It's GRETZKY... Mother F***ing G R E T Z K Y ! ! ! 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Gretzky... It's GRETZKY... Mother F***ing G R E T Z K Y ! ! ! 

[LeftWinger 4,743]

Fedorov...

BTW, you guys need to stop talking about how Zadina is a bust. We are already going to regret NOT drafting Hughes for the rest of their careers (Thanks Holland!) so please lets hope he turns out to be a 40 goal sniper!

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Fedorov...

BTW, you guys need to stop talking about how Zadina is a bust. We are already going to regret NOT drafting Hughes for the rest of their careers (Thanks Holland!) so please lets hope he turns out to be a 40 goal sniper!

What? If Zadina turns out to be a 40 goal sniper, not a single Red Wings fan will ever regret not drafting Hughes... I still think Zadina will be the more valuable player over their careers. It's still way too early to determine, but we'll see...

[kipwinger 7,644]

12 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

[kliq 3,753]

I am curious, Ovie is leading the poll but I don’t think anyone has justified how he is a better scorer then Mario. Can someone who voted for Ovie present that argument?

[toby91_ca 620]

56 minutes ago, kliq said:

I am curious, Ovie is leading the poll but I don’t think anyone has justified how he is a better scorer then Mario. Can someone who voted for Ovie present that argument?

That's a good question.  From my perspective, I probably have Mario in my "Gretzky bucket" in that I never really saw him as a pure goal scorer, but statistically speaking, hard to argue.

[marcaractac 3,875]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

I am curious, Ovie is leading the poll but I don’t think anyone has justified how he is a better scorer then Mario. Can someone who voted for Ovie present that argument?

I feel like longevity is a major factor when it comes to determining a greatest of all time. I mean, if we're gonna accept smaller sample sizes in the greatest goal scorer of all time, then it's likely Pavel Bure. But s*** happens, and he could not sustain it. A lot of luck goes into becoming the GOAT, and much of that luck involves staying healthy for your entire career. 

[GMRwings1983 8,737]

2 hours ago, kliq said:

I am curious, Ovie is leading the poll but I don’t think anyone has justified how he is a better scorer then Mario. Can someone who voted for Ovie present that argument?

Either the voters are too young or are too caught up in the moment.  Ovechkin is NOW and is more relevant today than Lemieux.

This poll is so lopsided that the voters are basically saying Ovechkin could retire today and still be regarded the best goal scorer ever.      

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

I feel like longevity is a major factor when it comes to determining a greatest of all time. I mean, if we're gonna accept smaller sample sizes in the greatest goal scorer of all time, then it's likely Pavel Bure. But s*** happens, and he could not sustain it. A lot of luck goes into becoming the GOAT, and much of that luck involves staying healthy for your entire career. 

Ovechkin has played 200 more games than Lemieux.  That's not a small amount, but Lemieux played over 900 games.  That's enough of a sample size to me to show how good a goal scorer he was.  

Edited March 12, 2020 by GMRwings1983

[marcaractac 3,875]

18 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Either the voters are too young or are too caught up in the moment.  Ovechkin is NOW and is more relevant today than Lemieux.

This poll is so lopsided that the voters are basically saying Ovechkin could retire today and still be regarded the best goal scorer ever.      

Ovechkin has played 200 more games than Lemieux.  That's not a small amount, but Lemieux played over 900 games.  That's enough of a sample size to me to show how good a goal scorer he was.  

Mario had 12 great seasons. He was never the same after his return. Not that I blame it on him. Ovie has a level of consistency in his scoring that has never been seen before. That sets him apart. Was luck involved? Absolutely. 

[toby91_ca 620]

3 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Mario had 12 great seasons. He was never the same after his return. Not that I blame it on him. Ovie has a level of consistency in his scoring that has never been seen before. That sets him apart. Was luck involved? Absolutely. 

Luck is involved in being able to accumulate totals, but I have a hard time putting a lot of weight on that when it comes to determining who is a better player.  Of course, it does play a role.  I wouldn't look at a player that put up crazy numbers in 300-400 games in terms of all-time greatness.....that's tough luck, once you get past a certain point, I think you can reduce the impact of longevity.  For example.....doesn't anyone on the planet think Ron Francis is a better scorer (point producer) than Lemieux?  He's ahead of him on the all-time scoring list.

Ovechkin currently has 16 more career goals than Lemieux, but he's played in 237 more games.  That will be the argument a Lemieux backer who make.  That's completely different than having 300 more goals than Lemieux in 600 more games or something like that....which is where it could go....but we're not there yet.  The Ovechkin backer would argue league scoring was higher during Lemieux's career, which is probably true, but I haven't analyzed it (Lemieux did play during some really bad scoring years league wide I believe).

[GMRwings1983 8,737]

4 minutes ago, toby91_ca said:

Luck is involved in being able to accumulate totals, but I have a hard time putting a lot of weight on that when it comes to determining who is a better player.  Of course, it does play a role.  I wouldn't look at a player that put up crazy numbers in 300-400 games in terms of all-time greatness.....that's tough luck, once you get past a certain point, I think you can reduce the impact of longevity.  For example.....doesn't anyone on the planet think Ron Francis is a better scorer (point producer) than Lemieux?  He's ahead of him on the all-time scoring list.

Ovechkin currently has 16 more career goals than Lemieux, but he's played in 237 more games.  That will be the argument a Lemieux backer who make.  That's completely different than having 300 more goals than Lemieux in 600 more games or something like that....which is where it could go....but we're not there yet.  The Ovechkin backer would argue league scoring was higher during Lemieux's career, which is probably true, but I haven't analyzed it (Lemieux did play during some really bad scoring years league wide I believe).

Lemieux also scored a ton of goals in the 80's with subpar linemates.  He wasn't surrounded by much talent until the early 90's.    

[marcaractac 3,875]

6 minutes ago, toby91_ca said:

Luck is involved in being able to accumulate totals, but I have a hard time putting a lot of weight on that when it comes to determining who is a better player.  Of course, it does play a role.  I wouldn't look at a player that put up crazy numbers in 300-400 games in terms of all-time greatness.....that's tough luck, once you get past a certain point, I think you can reduce the impact of longevity.  For example.....doesn't anyone on the planet think Ron Francis is a better scorer (point producer) than Lemieux?  He's ahead of him on the all-time scoring list.

Ovechkin currently has 16 more career goals than Lemieux, but he's played in 237 more games.  That will be the argument a Lemieux backer who make.  That's completely different than having 300 more goals than Lemieux in 600 more games or something like that....which is where it could go....but we're not there yet.  The Ovechkin backer would argue league scoring was higher during Lemieux's career, which is probably true, but I haven't analyzed it (Lemieux did play during some really bad scoring years league wide I believe).

Luck is a major factor in career longevity.

Ovie has also played his entire career in an era where it is more difficult to score. Lemieux got some of that nice 80's time in. Ovechkin is also gonna add many more goals yet. 

In the end, none of this is about knocking Mario. I have no doubt he was the better overall player. He is an all time great. It just goes to show how impressive Ovie truly is as a goal scoring machine. Imagine Ovie's totals if he played in the 80's. 

5 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Lemieux also scored a ton of goals in the 80's with subpar linemates.  He wasn't surrounded by much talent until the early 90's.    

The Caps sucked for several years early in Ovie's career as well. He still put up his 50 goal seasons in those years. 

[GMRwings1983 8,737]

3 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Luck is a major factor in career longevity.

Ovie has also played his entire career in an era where it is more difficult to score. Lemieux got some of that nice 80's time in. Ovechkin is also gonna add many more goals yet. 

In the end, none of this is about knocking Mario. I have no doubt he was the better overall player. He is an all time great. It just goes to show how impressive Ovie truly is as a goal scoring machine. Imagine Ovie's totals if he played in the 80's. 

The Caps sucked for several years early in Ovie's career as well. He still put up his 50 goal seasons in those years. 

It doesn't work that way, though.  Imagine Howe playing in the 80's.  Imagine Sawchuk wearing a mask and being several inches taller with better equipment.  Imagine Athanasiou playing on the Montreal Maroons with his speed.  We can only judge players with their peers.  Not imagine them playing in another era, but having the same physical tools, equipment, and hockey development as today's era.    

No doubt it was a higher scoring era in the 80's, but Gretzky scored 626 goals in the 80's.  Nobody else scored 500, despite it being an era where supposedly anyone can score lots of goals.  Why didn't Kurri or Gartner or Messier score 500 goals in the 80's?  How about Andreychuk, Ciccarrelli, etc?  Gretzky was a far better goal scorer that decade than his peers.    

Ovechkin is the same.  If we just look at the 2010's, Ovechkin scored 437 goals.  The next highest is Stamkos with 348.  So pretty significant gap.  Would Ovechkin score more than 437 goals in the 80's.  Most certainly.  Would he score more than Gretzky did that decade?  Hard to see how.  He'd have to score 65+ goals every season.       

Regarding Lemieux in the 1980's, see Gretzky, minus the HOF teammates all around him like Edmonton had.  The Penguins missed the playoffs in his first four seasons.    

Edited March 12, 2020 by GMRwings1983