mackel 679 Report post Posted May 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Kotkaniemi started out hot, and was better in their draft +1 season. No debating that. Zadina has been better recently, in their draft +2 season. Zadina caught up, surpassed, and will widen the gap next season. Zadina > Kotkaniemi. I know how much it will bother you when a Red Wings prospect proves to be better than a Habs prospect... It wouldn't bother me... at all... but as your reply shows... you're wrong, you tried to doctor the stats to fit your narrative and got exposed. If you want to try and compare a player battling a concussion to a player who isn't and try an call that a win, well I guess that's your prerogative; in the real world we rightly call that BS. Kotkaniemi > Zadina Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
13dangledangle 958 Report post Posted May 11, 2020 Both Kotkaniemi and Zadina spent time for each club this year totaling 49 games each combining AHL & NHL. For those 49 games Kotkaniemi had 21 points and Zadina had 31 points. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 11, 2020 8 minutes ago, mackel said: It wouldn't bother me... at all... but as your reply shows... you're wrong, you tried to doctor the stats to fit your narrative and got exposed. If you want to try and compare a player battling a concussion to a player who isn't and try an call that a win, well I guess that's your prerogative; in the real world we rightly call that BS. Kotkaniemi > Zadina LOL you will be so upset when Zadina inevitably proves you wrong, and becomes a legit top line winger... #bust I didn't "doctor" any stats. They are literally THE stats... I'd love to see your "proof" that Kotkaniemi was so much better than Zadina defensively, because he very clearly wasn't better offensively, concussion or not. Injuries happen. Zadina also suffered an injury. Let's hope they both stay healthy next season, so you can quit bitching and moaning about Zadina in every thread... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted May 11, 2020 25 minutes ago, mackel said: It wouldn't bother me... at all... but as your reply shows... you're wrong, you tried to doctor the stats to fit your narrative and got exposed. If you want to try and compare a player battling a concussion to a player who isn't and try an call that a win, well I guess that's your prerogative; in the real world we rightly call that BS. Kotkaniemi > Zadina Since when does being better defensively matter? Both Zadina and Kotka were drafted to be high end forwards. You don't draft forwards that high for their defense. You expect them to be able to score. Which Zadina has done a better job of than Kotka. And while Kotka was battling complications from a concussion, Zadina was battling a lower body injury. You can't excuse one's performance for injury and completely ignore the other. Both players suffered injuries. Zadina just performed better. Simple. And how do you support your argument that Hayton has been better? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said: Since when does being better defensively matter? Both Zadina and Kotka were drafted to be high end forwards. You don't draft forwards that high for their defense. You expect them to be able to score. Which Zadina has done a better job of than Kotka. And while Kotka was battling complications from a concussion, Zadina was battling a lower body injury. You can't excuse one's performance for injury and completely ignore the other. Both players suffered injuries. Zadina just performed better. Simple. And how do you support your argument that Hayton has been better? Zadina has been better, but I don't necessarily agree with the bold. I think defensive ability can definitely be weighed in these debates. I just don't think Kotkaniemi has been notably better defensively. Not enough to make up for his poor offensive numbers anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcaractac 3,963 Report post Posted May 11, 2020 3 hours ago, kipwinger said: Yeah but what about his intangibles? If being a hockey fan has taught me anything it's that (when convenient) stats don't mean "everything" and the ol' eyeball test is your best guide. Murray has his name on two Stanley Cups and learned under the tutelage of future hall of famer Marc Andre Fleury. Can your stupid spreadsheet monetize that? Ahh, right. I forgot, stats only matter when they support your argument. 1 F.Michael reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,521 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, marcaractac said: Ahh, right. I forgot, stats only matter when they support your argument. Exactly. Let's take this Zadina v. Kotkaniemi debate going on right now as an example. @krsmith17 is claiming that Zadina "caught up an surpassed" Kotkaniemi this year because he prefers Zadina and the Z had better stats this season. But a few months ago when I said the same thing about Rossi catching up and surprassing Lafreniere our buddy KRsmith said that Lafreniere has the "track record" and that this season is only an aberration. Edited May 12, 2020 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 2 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Zadina has been better, but I don't necessarily agree with the bold. I think defensive ability can definitely be weighed in these debates. I just don't think Kotkaniemi has been notably better defensively. Not enough to make up for his poor offensive numbers anyway. Ideally you want your top 6 F to play both sides, true. But, you don't draft a guy at 3 or 6 for his defense. You expect him to be able to score. Even if Kotka is better at defense, I don't care. Would rather have the guy who's better at offense (Zadina). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 1 hour ago, kipwinger said: Exactly. Let's take this Zadina v. Kotkaniemi debate going on right now as an example. @krsmith17 is claiming that Zadina "caught up an surpassed" Kotkaniemi this year because he prefers Zadina and the Z had better stats this season. But a few months ago when I said the same thing about Rossi catching up and surprassing Lafreniere our buddy KRsmith said that Lafreniere has the "track record" and that this season is only an aberration. You're the only person dumb enough to think Rossi has surpassed Lafreniere. Also, scenario one, Lafreniere has a MUCH better track record, and also had a slightly better season this season. So no, Rossi has not surpassed Lafreniere. Scenario two, Kotkaniemi had a better rookie season, but since then, Zadina has had a much better sophomore season. Lafreniere > Rossi Zadina > Kotkaniemi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,521 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 3 hours ago, marcaractac said: Ahh, right. I forgot, stats only matter when they support your argument. See what I mean, he's a big stat guy until he isn't. Funny how that works. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, kipwinger said: See what I mean, he's a big stat guy until he isn't. Funny how that works. What the f*** are you talking about? Please point to the stats that say that Rossi is better than Lafreniere, or that Kotkaniemi is better than Zadina. Oh right, centers impact the game in more ways than wingers because they take faceoffs... So therefore, Rossi will be a more important player at the NHL level than Lafreniere. Likewise, Kotkaniemi... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,521 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 1 hour ago, krsmith17 said: What the f*** are you talking about? Please point to the stats that say that Rossi is better than Lafreniere, or that Kotkaniemi is better than Zadina. Oh right, centers impact the game in more ways than wingers because they take faceoffs... So therefore, Rossi will be a more important player at the NHL level than Lafreniere. Likewise, Kotkaniemi... Ummm....yeah, they do impact the game more. You being snarky about it doesn't make it untrue. Also, it's not just faceoffs. Literally every coach's system from the minor leagues to the professional level requires more defensive responsibility out of centers than wingers. So Kotkaniemi and Rossi score as much (or more) than Zadina and Lafreniere despite having to do so much more every single game. It's actually a pretty straightforward argument, though I wouldn't expect a Canadian to understand it. While you dingbats are getting moist over the one-dimensional guys who score pretty goals everyone else is content winning Stanley Cups. It'll be 20 years before you realize that Draisaitl is better than McDavid too. That's why you losers can't win anything important. 2 Akakabuto and ChristopherReevesLegs reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcaractac 3,963 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 8 hours ago, kipwinger said: See what I mean, he's a big stat guy until he isn't. Funny how that works. Is inconsistency, flat out sucking this year, and loosing his job to another goalie a few of his "intangibles"? In the end, all I'm getting at is a rebuilding team should not be trading for uncertainties like Matt Murray. He started off hot and won two cups, no doubt. But he has been a mixed bag in the three years since. Holtby won a cup too, and I wouldn't touch him with a 50 foot pole in UFA. I also will not be baited into yet another Laffreniere vs Rossi debate, and here is why: It's a waste of time when you refer to Laffreniere as "simple Canadian minds getting moist over a one-dimensional winger." 1. You need to look up the definition of one-dimensional, because Lafreniere ain't it. 2. Rossi will top out as a second line center in the NHL. 1 F.Michael reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AtlantaHotWings 983 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 Figured this link should come here.... From Kahn https://www.mlive.com/redwings/2020/05/red-wings-forwards-whos-back-whos-not-whos-on-the-bubble.html Agree/Disagree with his thoughts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F.Michael 4,590 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, AtlantaHotWings said: Figured this link should come here.... From Kahn https://www.mlive.com/redwings/2020/05/red-wings-forwards-whos-back-whos-not-whos-on-the-bubble.html Agree/Disagree with his thoughts? Agree for the most part...Mantha is the only guy that may not be in a Wings jersey when the league resumes play. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 7 hours ago, kipwinger said: Ummm....yeah, they do impact the game more. You being snarky about it doesn't make it untrue. Also, it's not just faceoffs. Literally every coach's system from the minor leagues to the professional level requires more defensive responsibility out of centers than wingers. Wingers can impact the game just as much as centers. Centers have to cover more ice, and probably do have slightly more defensive responsibility, but you act like wingers aren't expected to back check or play defense. That's simply not true. Most of the best players from minor leagues play center, which is why most of the best players in the NHL are centers. Do you think Ovechkin would impact the game more if he were a center? Not a chance. He's still been one of the best players in the league for the past 15 years. 7 hours ago, kipwinger said: So Kotkaniemi and Rossi score as much (or more) than Zadina and Lafreniere despite having to do so much more every single game. Except for the fact that neither score more, and neither are / will be elite shutdown centers at the NHL level. Both Zadina and Lafreniere are known for their ability to play defensively responsible hockey, despite playing on the wings... 7 hours ago, kipwinger said: It's actually a pretty straightforward argument, though I wouldn't expect a Canadian to understand it. While you dingbats are getting moist over the one-dimensional guys who score pretty goals everyone else is content winning Stanley Cups. It'll be 20 years before you realize that Draisaitl is better than McDavid too. That's why you losers can't win anything important. Yeah, you wouldn't expect a Canadian to understand the game of hockey... I assume you're referring to the Stanley Cup drought from Canadian cities... You do realize the majority of those American teams that keep winning Stanley Cups are mostly built of Canadian players? Also, McDavid > Draisaitl, and McDavid is a center dumbass... But I guess you're smarter than everyone else that knows McDavid is the best player in the NHL. Including Dave Tippett, which is why McDavid is the lock 1C, and Draisaitl flips back and forth between 2C and 1W... I'm sure you thought Malkin was better than Crosby too... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 679 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 14 hours ago, krsmith17 said: LOL you will be so upset when Zadina inevitably proves you wrong, and becomes a legit top line winger... #bust I didn't "doctor" any stats. They are literally THE stats... I'd love to see your "proof" that Kotkaniemi was so much better than Zadina defensively, because he very clearly wasn't better offensively, concussion or not. Injuries happen. Zadina also suffered an injury. Let's hope they both stay healthy next season, so you can quit bitching and moaning about Zadina in every thread... Talking with you is like taking to a toddler... yes you doctored the stats... you omitted Kotkaniemi's 1st NHL season because it didn't suit your incorrect knee jerk, I have to disagree with THAT guy narrative. Ovechkin didn't back check at all for the first 10 years of his career... and barely does now... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 1 hour ago, AtlantaHotWings said: Figured this link should come here.... From Kahn https://www.mlive.com/redwings/2020/05/red-wings-forwards-whos-back-whos-not-whos-on-the-bubble.html Agree/Disagree with his thoughts? Id say we have to get rid of a few bodies in helm/nielsen/glendening prior to the start of the season, counted 11 guys to come back + timashov + rasmussen + ehn + smith and not counting our 1st pick and a free agent , moves will have to get done and id personally prefer to have svechnikov stick around and get a real look hopefully we get a compliance buyout and use it on nielsen , id just leave abdelkader buried for three years and surround the kids in grand rapids Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 8 minutes ago, mackel said: Talking with you is like taking to a toddler... yes you doctored the stats... you omitted Kotkaniemi's 1st NHL season because it didn't suit your incorrect knee jerk, I have to disagree with THAT guy narrative. I didn't "omit" Kotkaniemi's 1st NHL season. In fact, I said that Kotkaniemi was very clearly ahead of Zadina in their draft +1 season. Since then, Zadina has been MUCH better. You want to include their entire young NHL careers? Sure. Neo posted it. Then 13dangle reposted it. And here it is yet again... Jesperi Kotkaniemi: 115 NHL games played. 42 points. 0.36 PPG average. Filip Zadina: 34 NHL games played. 18 points. 0.53 PPG average. Even my toddler could tell you that 0.53 > 0.36... But Kotkaniemi is sO mUcH bEtTeR dEfEnSiVeLy... 12 minutes ago, mackel said: Ovechkin didn't back check at all for the first 10 years of his career... and barely does now... ... and yet through those first 10 years, and the past 5 years, he's still been far more valuable than 99% of the centers in the league... What's your point? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) Larkin is better defensively than Ovechkin. But if you had to choose one... Edited May 12, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 8 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said: Larkin is better defensively than Ovechkin. But if you had to choose one... Larkin obvi. He impacts the game more as a center than Ovechkin does as a winger. 2 13dangledangle and Akakabuto reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Lucidi 444 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 On 5/11/2020 at 7:51 AM, SwedeWings said: I would really like Matt Murray as our starting goaltender next season if he is avaliable! Perheps the price is not to high either. I like it, but I think the good play is to keep Howard around 2 more years and give him the starts. Let him get torched and then bring Larson/Petruzzelli in for cleanup. After the opponent has a 4-5 goal lead, they usually don't press to make it a 9 goal lead. That's good for confidence for a young guy. Lets him see the speed of the game, but not face the ultra aggressive net drives that good goalies need to get used to stopping. If Howard will take 2 years, 3 million per to be our scapegoat, sign him up. If not, let him go and move onto Murray. 1 AtlantaHotWings reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 679 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 42 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Larkin obvi. He impacts the game more as a center than Ovechkin does as a winger. So childish, so dumb. Larkin isn't a comparable to Ovechkin and of course you and your dummy account know that. An Ovechkin/Crosby comparison would be more apt but again its doesn't suit narrative. Which is wrong. Kotkaniemi 0.365ppg; -10 career Kotkaniemi 0.430ppg; +1 un-concussed 1st season Zadina 0.486ppg (check your math 18pts in 37 games); -13 career ----- Healty Kotkaniemi >> Healty Zadina Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 22 minutes ago, mackel said: So childish, so dumb. Larkin isn't a comparable to Ovechkin and of course you and your dummy account know that. That was more so in response to kip's dumb Rossi > Lafreniere narrative, not your dumb Kotkaniemi > Zadina narrative... Not that I think Lafreniere is the same type of player as Ovechkin, but I do think he could have a similar impact on his future team, from the wing. I'm also not convinced that Rossi will be much, if at all better than Larkin. You take the slam dunk, elite, future top 5 winger in the league, over the future good, not great, maybe top 30 center in the league. Don't overthink it. Don't draft based on position. Take the best player available. And at number one, that is without question, Alexis Lafreniere. 22 minutes ago, mackel said: An Ovechkin/Crosby comparison would be more apt but again its doesn't suit narrative. Which is wrong. An Ovechkin / Crosby comparison would be more apt to compare Zadina / Kotkaniemi? Okay, you do that... 22 minutes ago, mackel said: Kotkaniemi 0.365ppg; -10 career Kotkaniemi 0.430ppg; +1 un-concussed 1st season Zadina 0.486ppg (check your math 18pts in 37 games); -13 career ----- Healty Kotkaniemi >> Healty Zadina I didn't do the math. That was Neo. You're right, I should have checked it though before reposting... So you give me s*** for "omitting" Kotkaniemi's draft +1 season, when I very clearly acknowledged it, but yet you want to conveniently omit Kotkaniemi's draft +2 season, because of an injury? He was struggling long before the concussion. That's just an excuse... Again, my toddler would be able to tell you that 0.486 > 0.365. LOL at bringing up +/-... Montreal has been a combined +4 over the past two seasons. Detroit on the other hand has been a combined -172... The fact that Kotkaniemi is -10, and Zadina is -18 in that time is kind of telling... that Kotkaniemi is probably not far superior defensively... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 679 Report post Posted May 12, 2020 12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: That was more so in response to kip's dumb Rossi > Lafreniere narrative, not your dumb Kotkaniemi > Zadina narrative... Not that I think Lafreniere is the same type of player as Ovechkin, but I do think he could have a similar impact on his future team, from the wing. I'm also not convinced that Rossi will be much, if at all better than Larkin. You take the slam dunk, elite, future top 5 winger in the league, over the future good, not great, maybe top 30 center in the league. Don't overthink it. Don't draft based on position. Take the best player available. And at number one, that is without question, Alexis Lafreniere. An Ovechkin / Crosby comparison would be more apt to compare Zadina / Kotkaniemi? Okay, you do that... I didn't do the math. That was Neo. You're right, I should have checked it though before reposting... So you give me s*** for "omitting" Kotkaniemi's draft +1 season, when I very clearly acknowledged it, but yet you want to conveniently omit Kotkaniemi's draft +2 season, because of an injury? He was struggling long before the concussion. That's just an excuse... Again, my toddler would be able to tell you that 0.486 > 0.365. LOL at bringing up +/-... Montreal has been a combined +4 over the past two seasons. Detroit on the other hand has been a combined -172... The fact that Kotkaniemi is -10, and Zadina is -18 in that time is kind of telling... that Kotkaniemi is probably not far superior defensively... You're a lost cause... I'm done with you... in 3 years when Zadina is hanging around our top 9 on draft position hype alone and you're still saying he's only 23 and he was ranked 3rd and we got him at 6th so he's not a bust I'll gladly say I told you so... until then I'm done. Chat in 3 2 13dangledangle and krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
