2020 Offseason

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

That was more so in response to kip's dumb Rossi > Lafreniere narrative, not your dumb Kotkaniemi > Zadina narrative...

Not that I think Lafreniere is the same type of player as Ovechkin, but I do think he could have a similar impact on his future team, from the wing. I'm also not convinced that Rossi will be much, if at all better than Larkin.

You take the slam dunk, elite, future top 5 winger in the league, over the future good, not great, maybe top 30 center in the league. Don't overthink it. Don't draft based on position. Take the best player available. And at number one, that is without question, Alexis Lafreniere.

An Ovechkin / Crosby comparison would be more apt to compare Zadina / Kotkaniemi? Okay, you do that...

I didn't do the math. That was Neo. You're right, I should have checked it though before reposting...

So you give me s*** for "omitting" Kotkaniemi's draft +1 season, when I very clearly acknowledged it, but yet you want to conveniently omit Kotkaniemi's draft +2 season, because of an injury? He was struggling long before the concussion. That's just an excuse...

Again, my toddler would be able to tell you that 0.486 > 0.365.

LOL at bringing up +/-... Montreal has been a combined +4 over the past two seasons. Detroit on the other hand has been a combined -172... The fact that Kotkaniemi is -10, and Zadina is -18 in that time is kind of telling... that Kotkaniemi is probably not far superior defensively...

My bad. Forgot to add the 9 games played from the previous year.

1 hour ago, mackel said:

You're a lost cause... I'm done with you... in 3 years when Zadina is hanging around our top 9 on draft position hype alone and you're still saying he's only 23 and he was ranked 3rd and we got him at 6th so he's not a bust I'll gladly say I told you so... until then I'm done.

Chat in 3

Regardless,

Kotkaniemi's first full season (healthy):

79 games, 34 points, +1

Montreal's team average was a +3. They had 44 wins and finished one spot out of the playoffs. Kotka was below his team average in +/- and finished with only a 0.43 PPG average on a better team.

Zadina's first full season (lower body injury):

28 games, 15 points, -13

Detroit's team average was a -13. They were on pace to win only 20 games. They finished dead last in the entire league. Zadina had a -13 ( the team average) and a 0.54 PPG average on a far worse team.

So taking all things into account:

An injured Zadina outperformed a healthy Kotkaniemi both offensively and defensively in their first full seasons despite Zadina playing on a far worse team. 

And you still haven't explained how Hayton is better than Zadina.

[krsmith17 7,191]

36 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

My bad. Forgot to add the 9 games played from the previous year.

Regardless,

Kotkaniemi's first full season (healthy):

79 games, 34 points, +1

Montreal's team average was a +3. They had 44 wins and finished one spot out of the playoffs. Kotka was below his team average in +/- and finished with only a 0.43 PPG average on a better team.

Zadina's first full season (lower body injury):

28 games, 15 points, -13

Detroit's team average was a -13. They were on pace to win only 20 games. They finished dead last in the entire league. Zadina had a -13 ( the team average) and a 0.54 PPG average on a far worse team.

So taking all things into account:

An injured Zadina outperformed a healthy Kotkaniemi both offensively and defensively in their first full seasons despite Zadina playing on a far worse team. 

And you still haven't explained how Hayton is better than Zadina.

"You're like talking to a toddler"...

[AtlantaHotWings 984]

Easy to settle this debate with ....

  Comrie debate  > "Zadina/Kotkaniemi && Ovie/Sid &&  Franzen/Hossa && synthetic/dinosaur(any motorcycle people will get this) && any other debatable pairs. 

[mackel 679]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

My bad. Forgot to add the 9 games played from the previous year.

Regardless,

Kotkaniemi's first full season (healthy):

79 games, 34 points, +1

Montreal's team average was a +3. They had 44 wins and finished one spot out of the playoffs. Kotka was below his team average in +/- and finished with only a 0.43 PPG average on a better team.

Zadina's first full season (lower body injury):

28 games, 15 points, -13

Detroit's team average was a -13. They were on pace to win only 20 games. They finished dead last in the entire league. Zadina had a -13 ( the team average) and a 0.54 PPG average on a far worse team.

So taking all things into account:

An injured Zadina outperformed a healthy Kotkaniemi both offensively and defensively in their first full seasons despite Zadina playing on a far worse team. 

And you still haven't explained how Hayton is better than Zadina.

Cool your jets bro Zadina played 38 games he's not played a full season... but keep up the false equivalencies.

Hayton, what about him...? I don't owe you jack.   As a prospect it's a tossup but that's purely speculative for and against.

Edited May 12, 2020 by mackel

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 5/10/2020 at 5:02 PM, mackel said:

No I think at this point Kotkaniemi has played better in a more important role and I think Hayton will follow the same path...

You put Kotkaniemi and Hayton above Zadina despite the fact that Zadina has better numbers.

You tried your best to explain Kotkaniemi. Back up why Hayton should be above him.

3 hours ago, mackel said:

Cool your jets bro Zadina played 38 games he's not played a full season... but keep up the false equivalencies.

Yeah. Because he was injured for part of it. Just like Kotka was. A false equivalency would be excusing poor numbers because of injury for one player (Kotkaniemi) and ignoring it for another players numbers (Zadina). 

And even with his injury this season, Zadina still outperformed Kotka's healthy season on a far better team. Another fact you choose to ignore.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[marcaractac 3,963]

21 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

But Kotkaniemi is sO mUcH bEtTeR dEfEnSiVeLy...

Well duh, it's easier to play better defensively in the AHL. 

[kipwinger 8,522]

Ugh, this debate is dull and has been done in various iterations before.  Nobody is saying Kotkaniemi is a better scorer.  The numbers don't back that up.  Mackel is saying he's a better player.  We're all fully aware that a player who scores fewer points can still be a better/more valuable player.  Otherwise we'd all have to conclude Datsyuk was not better than Crosby or Malkin in 2008.  Otherwise Steve Yzerman was a better player in 1987 than he was in 1997.

Zadina has been criticized by quite a lot of folks, including our own coaching staff, for his play away from the puck.  It's not like Mackel is making this up.  I don't know enough about Jesperi Kotkaniemi to weigh in on the debate, but I do know that conflating "scoring" with "better" is a pretty slippery slope.  You start playing that game and you have to conclude absurd s*** like that Brad Marchand is a "better" player than Alexander Barkov, or that Patrice Bergeron has never been a top 5 center in the NHL.  Doesn't work that way.

Edited May 13, 2020 by kipwinger

[13dangledangle 960]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Ugh, this debate is dull and has been done in various iterations before.  Nobody is saying Kotkaniemi is a better scorer.  The numbers don't back that up.  Mackel is saying he's a better player.  We're all fully aware that a player who scores fewer points can still be a better/more valuable player.  Otherwise we'd all have to conclude Datsyuk was not better than Crosby or Malkin in 2008.  Otherwise Steve Yzerman was a better player in 1987 than he was in 1997.

Zadina has been criticized by quite a lot of folks, including our own coaching staff, for his play away from the puck.  It's not like Mackel is making this up.  I don't know enough about Jesperi Kotkaniemi to weigh in on the debate, but I do know that conflating "scoring" with "better" is a pretty slippery slope.  You start playing that game and you have to conclude absurd s*** like that Brad Marchand is a "better" player than Alexander Barkov, or that Patrice Bergeron has never been a top 5 center in the NHL.  Doesn't work that way.

I agree in Zadina's first season his all around game was suspect, but last season his all around game was toted as being vastly improved.  This was also the deciding factor in which he stayed in the lineup after Mantha returned from injury last December-Blash said he's staying up because he's showing a better all around game, especially from a defensive standpoint.

With Zadina improving so much on his defensive play all while still putting up (better) points as well I think its safe to say Zadina is easily becoming the better player.  

 

Edit:  I dont really get why this is even an argument.  Should we not just be happy Zadina is even in this discussion after so quickly being labeled a bust?  

Edited May 13, 2020 by 13dangledangle

[marcaractac 3,963]

39 minutes ago, 13dangledangle said:

I agree in Zadina's first season his all around game was suspect, but last season his all around game was toted as being vastly improved.  This was also the deciding factor in which he stayed in the lineup after Mantha returned from injury last December-Blash said he's staying up because he's showing a better all around game, especially from a defensive standpoint.

With Zadina improving so much on his defensive play all while still putting up (better) points as well I think its safe to say Zadina is easily becoming the better player.  

 

Edit:  I dont really get why this is even an argument.  Should we not just be happy Zadina is even in this discussion after so quickly being labeled a bust?  

The same applies to guys like Kucherov, Draisaitl. Not that I think Zadina will hit those highs. But agreed, it's a dumb argument. Especially this early in their respective careers. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, 13dangledangle said:

I agree in Zadina's first season his all around game was suspect, but last season his all around game was toted as being vastly improved.  This was also the deciding factor in which he stayed in the lineup after Mantha returned from injury last December-Blash said he's staying up because he's showing a better all around game, especially from a defensive standpoint.

With Zadina improving so much on his defensive play all while still putting up (better) points as well I think its safe to say Zadina is easily becoming the better player.  

Edit:  I dont really get why this is even an argument.  Should we not just be happy Zadina is even in this discussion after so quickly being labeled a bust?  

Is there anyone that truly believes that Zadina is a bust though? aside from mackel, and maybe CRL...

[SwedeWings 7]

Barrie & Lehner to Wings in free agency?

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Is there anyone that truly believes that Zadina is a bust though? aside from mackel, and maybe CRL...

No, Zadina is not a bust. I have high faith in him!

[Akakabuto 1,749]

44 minutes ago, SwedeWings said:

Barrie & Lehner to Wings in free agency?

No pls and yes pls

[13dangledangle 960]

48 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Is there anyone that truly believes that Zadina is a bust though? aside from mackel, and maybe CRL...

I would hope not more then just for creating conversation.  Ive seen it on the hfboards, reddit, freep, hockeybuzz, like I said though most of these are to spark conversation.  Its way too early to tell, but like we've said I have high hopes for the kid.  He definitely seems to have the work ethic to be as great at he wants to be, which is the other thing thats a huge factor, te kid wants to be great.  

4 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

No pls and yes pls

I just watched that video and thought the same thing.  I watched Barrie in Toronto, no way would I want spend money on him...Lehner absolutely 

[SwedeWings 7]

6 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

No pls and yes pls

Why not Barrie? Righthanded with a good shot! Would be an upgrade on our defense...

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, SwedeWings said:

Why not Barrie? Righthanded with a good shot! Would be an upgrade on our defense...

We're pretty well set on the right side, with Hronek and Seider, along with Lindstrom and / or Bowey. I'm hoping we stay far away from any "big name" free agents. Sign a veteran goaltender to a short-term contract, and that's it. 

[Akakabuto 1,749]

8 minutes ago, SwedeWings said:

Why not Barrie? Righthanded with a good shot! Would be an upgrade on our defense...

Not the upgrade we need. This D needs stability and players with the ability to make plays and get the puck out of the zone.

Transition is a disaster on this team.

[13dangledangle 960]

5 minutes ago, SwedeWings said:

Why not Barrie? Righthanded with a good shot! Would be an upgrade on our defense...

Personally I just feel Barrie doesnt have a great hockey IQ, he makes terrible decisions all over the ice.  He makes them in his own end when he tries to make (cringe worthy)  passes causing turnovers and in the offensive end he does the same thing while shooting the puck.  Id prefer to wait it out and sit tight for the right guy.  If Pietrangelo wasnt 30 Id be all over him though

[SwedeWings 7]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

We're pretty well set on the right side, with Hronek and Seider, along with Lindstrom and / or Bowey. I'm hoping we stay far away from any "big name" free agents. Sign a veteran goaltender to a short-term contract, and that's it. 

One more season with this defense does not feel good... If we`re signing an veteran goalie I would go for Khudobin in Dallas. But if we could get a good goalie to help our rebuild I wouldn`t say no.Let`s say Lehner och Markström.

[kipwinger 8,522]

2 hours ago, 13dangledangle said:

I agree in Zadina's first season his all around game was suspect, but last season his all around game was toted as being vastly improved.  This was also the deciding factor in which he stayed in the lineup after Mantha returned from injury last December-Blash said he's staying up because he's showing a better all around game, especially from a defensive standpoint.

With Zadina improving so much on his defensive play all while still putting up (better) points as well I think its safe to say Zadina is easily becoming the better player.  

 

Edit:  I dont really get why this is even an argument.  Should we not just be happy Zadina is even in this discussion after so quickly being labeled a bust?  

Like I said, I haven't seen enough of Kotkaniemi to weigh in on the debate.  But there are a few things I would say about your post. First, there isn't a single team in the NHL whose centers don't have more defensive responsibilities than their wingers do. Hence why guys who played center their whole careers but can't hack it in the NHL (Abby, Helm, Franzen) get moved to the wing and not vice versa.  So while Zadina may have improved, he's still asked to do MUCH less than a center.  Especially a top six center. 

Secondly, this year IS Zadina's first year.  He played 9 games last season and looked totally lost.  Then he looked totally lost in training camp and as a result didn't make the team.  He then got called up because of his offense (to replace Mantha) and showed improvement as the season progressed.  But he still only played 28 games.  Your post makes it seem like there was some marked difference in his play from one year to the next.  That's basically an exaggeration considering he still hasn't even played a half season's worth of NHL hockey.

Again, it's pretty clear Zadina is the better scorer.  That should come as no surprise considering we all knew that on draft day.  But a better player is still very much in debate I'd think.

[Akakabuto 1,749]

1 hour ago, SwedeWings said:

One more season with this defense does not feel good...

I'll have to agree with you on that one

Edited May 13, 2020 by Akakabuto

[13dangledangle 960]

7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Like I said, I haven't seen enough of Kotkaniemi to weigh in on the debate.  But there are a few things I would say about your post. First, there isn't a single team in the NHL whose centers don't have more defensive responsibilities than their wingers do. Hence why guys who played center their whole careers but can't hack it in the NHL (Abby, Helm, Franzen) get moved to the wing and not vice versa.  So while Zadina may have improved, he's still asked to do MUCH less than a center.  Especially a top six center. 

Secondly, this year IS Zadina's first year.  He played 9 games last season and looked totally lost.  Then he looked totally lost in training camp and as a result didn't make the team.  He then got called up because of his offense (to replace Mantha) and showed improvement as the season progressed.  But he still only played 28 games.  Your post makes it seem like there was some marked difference in his play from one year to the next.  That's basically an exaggeration considering he still hasn't even played a half season's worth of NHL hockey.

Again, it's pretty clear Zadina is the better scorer.  That should come as no surprise considering we all knew that on draft day.  But a better player is still very much in debate I'd think.

I agree its way too early to tell who will end up the better player, and Im also not arguing that center has more defensive responsibilities.  I will argue that Zadina definitely improved his game from 18/19 and 19/20 though.  Which is why he stayed up for an extended period of time once Mantha returned.  In 18/19 he looked uncomfortable out there and starting as early as the prospect tourny of 19/20 he not only looked more comfortable on the ice, you could see his all around game was improving-though at this point I feel we're beating a dead horse... 

Im excited to see him (as well as Rasmussen & Svechnikov)  a lot more this season to see how their games developed in Rapids.

[SwedeWings 7]

59 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

I'll have to agree with you on that one

Thank you

[Akakabuto 1,749]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Again, it's pretty clear Zadina is the better scorer.  That should come as no surprise considering we all knew that on draft day.  But a better player is still very much in debate I'd think.

Which was my original point in response to mackel. Zadina is not sliding among his draft class. He still in that top 5-6. I agree with what you said about centers vs wingers but given these guys stats and that they are both had struggles, some due to injury(Kotkaniemis being more serious obviously), the debate should definitely be there.

If anyone in that group should drop in a re-draft its Hayton. His highest ranking before the draft was at 9 (north american skaters only) and was considered a reach. Nothing this guy has done since being drafted have proved the Coyotes right in taking him that high or him being a better player than Zadina.

In my humble opinion:

1. Dahlin
2. Svechnikov/Hughes
4. Tkatchuk
5. Zadina/Kotkaniemi

9999. Hayton
 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Akakabuto

[F.Michael 4,590]

4 hours ago, SwedeWings said:

Barrie & Lehner to Wings in free agency?

No, Zadina is not a bust. I have high faith in him!

A year ago I'd say sure to Barrie - however this past season in Leaf Land hasn't been so promising.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, Akakabuto said:

Which was my original point in response to mackel. Zadina is not sliding among his draft class. He still in that top 5-6. I agree with what you said about centers vs wingers but given these guys stats and that they are both had struggles, some due to injury(Kotkaniemis being more serious obviously), the debate should definitely be there.

If anyone in that group should drop in a re-draft its Hayton. His highest ranking before the draft was at 9 (north american skaters only) and was considered a reach. Nothing this guy has done since being drafted have proved the Coyotes right in taking him that high or him being a better player than Zadina.

In my humble opinion:

1. Dahlin
2. Svechnikov/Hughes
4. Tkatchuk
5. Zadina/Kotkaniemi

9999. Hayton
 

The only reason Zadina dropped at all is because Hughes moved up into 3rd?. That pushes everyone after that down one spot at least. Just because Hughes has moved up in his draft class doesnt make Zadina out to be any worse than he was when he was drafted. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie