2020 Offseason

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

5 hours ago, ely s said:

 Gilbert Brule , Derick Brassard , Sam Gagner , Nikita Filatov , Oliver Ekman-Larsson , Brett Connolly , Mika Zibanejad , Hampus Lindholm , Sean Monahan , Jake Virtanen , Pavel Zacha , Matthew Tkachuk , Cody Glass

As I pointed out recently, Zadina is about middle of the pack in that list of 6th overall picks.

I take from that 2 things:

1. Even if he stays there he is certainly not a bust relative to his draft position.

2. If half of 6th overall draft picks turn out to be bottom half of the roster NHLers or worse, Zadina can't be a bust because you can't apply the term "bust" to such a large number. Busts are supposed to be rare. Not half of the players.

[Scott R Lucidi 424]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

As I pointed out recently, Zadina is about middle of the pack in that list of 6th overall picks.

I take from that 2 things:

1. Even if he stays there he is certainly not a bust relative to his draft position.

2. If half of 6th overall draft picks turn out to be bottom half of the roster NHLers or worse, Zadina can't be a bust because you can't apply the term "bust" to such a large number. Busts are supposed to be rare. Not half of the players.

All of this AND:

You kind of have to bust or show signs of busting before you're a bust!

By this age, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Mantha, and Larkin did not have as many GP or Points in the NHL.

Come at me with "But Yzerman" did.

 

 

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

As I pointed out recently, Zadina is about middle of the pack in that list of 6th overall picks.

I take from that 2 things:

1. Even if he stays there he is certainly not a bust relative to his draft position.

2. If half of 6th overall draft picks turn out to be bottom half of the roster NHLers or worse, Zadina can't be a bust because you can't apply the term "bust" to such a large number. Busts are supposed to be rare. Not half of the players.

Bust

Bust

Bust

Bust

Bust

Bust

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

[mackel 675]

10 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So like half of 6th overall picks never reach their potential? Hmmmmm

I have a lot of love for Krug. From the same area of Michigan as me. Was the captain of the MSU hockey team when I was there. Would be thrilled to bring him home again. Like Raffi round two.

That said, Krug would be a big ******* mistake. This team is in no way ready to go all in on big UFAs. And Krug is an undersized PP specialist who's going to command a kings ransom. Krug has a flashing neon sign over his head that says mistake.

A CRL post like by krsmith, what kind of unholy alliance is this lol

4 hours ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

All of this AND:

You kind of have to bust or show signs of busting before you're a bust!

By this age, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Mantha, and Larkin did not have as many GP or Points in the NHL.

Come at me with "But Yzerman" did.

 

 

 

None of the players you listed were ranked top 3 or drafted top 6 aside from Yzerman, so yea there's that.

[Dabura 12,206]

can we please stop talking about zadina who scored at a 0.54 PPG clip (albeit in a small sample) as a 20-year-old on a team that couldn't score

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

20 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Bust

Bust

Bust

Bust

Bust

Bust

Zadina is the only one on your list that isn't man-made.

9 hours ago, Dabura said:

can we please stop talking about zadina who scored at a 0.54 PPG clip (albeit in a small sample) as a 20-year-old on a team that couldn't score

You first.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

On 5/20/2020 at 10:05 PM, mackel said:

A CRL post like by krsmith, what kind of unholy alliance is this lol

None of the players you listed were ranked top 3 or drafted top 6 aside from Yzerman, so yea there's that.

considering we know the players they turned out to be, that means a whole lot of nothing. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 5/21/2020 at 3:02 PM, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Zadina is the only one on your list that isn't man-made.

You first.

I stand corrected. Calling Zadina a bust is man-made too.

[Dabura 12,206]

BUMP SAT ALONE IN A BOGGY MARSH

So I was talking hockey with an old friend. He brought up an interesting angle that I somehow hadn't even considered: If 2020-21 is a significantly shortened season, a la 2012-13, then maybe Yzerman actually does make an honest push for the playoffs next season. Because why not.

We probably don't make the 2013 playoffs if 2012-13 is a full season. Instead of burning out over a full 82-game schedule and missing the playoffs, we made the playoffs and very nearly made it to the conference finals. All of this largely because Howard didn't have to deal with the workload of a full season and, consequently, was able to get into a groove and play arguably the best hockey of his career.

Granted, that 2013 team still had Datsyuk and Zetterberg and Kronwall, and Howard was in his prime, and Babcock had a rare talent for getting thoroughly mediocre teams to overachieve. And, granted, I don't know whether a January start to next season (a la 2013) is realistic or unrealistic, as I honestly haven't been paying much attention to NHL rumors and news outside of draft lotto stuff.

But it's something to think about.

We know Yzerman is going to have cap space to work with. We know that, at the very least, he's going to be looking for an upgrade in net, e.g. Lehner. We know what hot goaltending can do for a team. We know we could be walking away from the draft with Lafreniere. ... If the season is set to start in the fall, none of this makes me think playoffs. If, on the other hand, the season is set to start in the winter...then maybe the stars are aligning for the Wings.

We're all concerned that two or three more years of futility would wreck our young players and establish a losing culture. Wouldn't it be nice to break up the hopelessness with a surprise playoff appearance?

"No. We need to suck next season. We need another top-four pick."

I mean, sure. But I'd say we also need some meaningful hockey games.

[13dangledangle 957]

13 minutes ago, Dabura said:

BUMP SAT ALONE IN A BOGGY MARSH

So I was talking hockey with an old friend. He brought up an interesting angle that I somehow hadn't even considered: If 2020-21 is a significantly shortened season, a la 2012-13, then maybe Yzerman actually does make an honest push for the playoffs next season. Because why not.

We probably don't make the 2013 playoffs if 2012-13 is a full season. Instead of burning out over a full 82-game schedule and missing the playoffs, we made the playoffs and very nearly made it to the conference finals. All of this largely because Howard didn't have to deal with the workload of a full season and, consequently, was able to get into a groove and play arguably the best hockey of his career.

Granted, that 2013 team still had Datsyuk and Zetterberg and Kronwall, and Howard was in his prime, and Babcock had a rare talent for getting thoroughly mediocre teams to overachieve. And, granted, I don't know whether a January start to next season (a la 2013) is realistic or unrealistic, as I honestly haven't been paying much attention to NHL rumors and news outside of draft lotto stuff.

But it's something to think about.

We know Yzerman is going to have cap space to work with. We know that, at the very least, he's going to be looking for an upgrade in net, e.g. Lehner. We know what hot goaltending can do for a team. We know we could be walking away from the draft with Lafreniere. ... If the season is set to start in the fall, none of this makes me think playoffs. If, on the other hand, the season is set to start in the winter...then maybe the stars are aligning for the Wings.

We're all concerned that two or three more years of futility would wreck our young players and establish a losing culture. Wouldn't it be nice to break up the hopelessness with a surprise playoff appearance?

"No. We need to suck next season. We need another top-four pick."

I mean, sure. But I'd say we also need some meaningful hockey games.

 

I definitely think if Yzerman wanted to put pieces together to make a push then he could, but I think it would most certainly result in the same short term success that got us in trouble in the first place.  As we all know Holland forced prolonged our rebuild by achieving the "streak" with overpaid FA's that didnt work out and overpaying current roster players, whereas in rebuild mode these some of these guys dont get the contracts they did.  

It seems as Yzerman has set his focus on making this team a giant again and adding players like Hall, that could indeed help the next few seasons and perhaps even give us the fuel for another push, isnt in the big picture.  These short term contracts would not only affect our draft chances (that we perpetually drop as low as possible anyway) they also take ice time away from growing players in key development time.  If our roster with new long term acquisitions (draft/trade/goalie FA) can make a push Id be stoked af.  I do think we have one more jittery season to go through until we start to see a huge difference at the start of the 21/22 season though.         

[13dangledangle 957]

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That's all fine and dandy BUT what are your thoughts on the 2020 Offseason?

[ely s 457]

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/notes-young-red-wings-took-step-forward/c-317060294

a little older, found it today. it´s nice to get some different opinions...

[Dabura 12,206]

18 hours ago, 13dangledangle said:

I definitely think if Yzerman wanted to put pieces together to make a push then he could, but I think it would most certainly result in the same short term success that got us in trouble in the first place.  As we all know Holland forced prolonged our rebuild by achieving the "streak" with overpaid FA's that didnt work out and overpaying current roster players, whereas in rebuild mode these some of these guys dont get the contracts they did.  

It seems as Yzerman has set his focus on making this team a giant again and adding players like Hall, that could indeed help the next few seasons and perhaps even give us the fuel for another push, isnt in the big picture.  These short term contracts would not only affect our draft chances (that we perpetually drop as low as possible anyway) they also take ice time away from growing players in key development time.  If our roster with new long term acquisitions (draft/trade/goalie FA) can make a push Id be stoked af.  I do think we have one more jittery season to go through until we start to see a huge difference at the start of the 21/22 season though.         

Oh, don't get me wrong -- I wouldn't want an all-in, playoffs-or-bust approach to this offseason. And I don't think there's any chance Yzerman will be swayed to think that way at this point in the rebuild, even if we get Lafreniere. Suter-Parise 2.0 is not in the cards for us this offseason; Yzerman won't be signing Hall and Pietrangelo. lol! But if we get Lafreniere and if it's looking like next season will be truncated, I think we might see Yzerman take a slightly more ambitious, aggressive approach to this offseason than he otherwise would.

Maybe we do need to be solidly in the mix for the 1st overall pick next season, even if we get Lafreniere. I'm willing to accept that a bad 2020-21 season is what's best for this franchise's long-term health. At the same time, I do think meaningful regular season hockey and a surprise playoff berth would be a good thing. This season was rough for everyone in Red Wings world. It was rough for the franchise. It was rough for the brand. It was rough for the players. It was rough for the fans. Just look at the state of this forum.

3 hours ago, GalenCefs said:

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[Akakabuto 1,744]

Is it just me or have @ChristopherReevesLegs posts gotten better since he switched to his new account @GalenCefs after he got banned?

Edited June 8, 2020 by Akakabuto

[krsmith17 7,191]

Other than signing a cheap backup goaltender, I hope Yzerman stays away from free agency this offseason. Especially the big name free agents the day free agency opens... If he wants to sign another stop-gap Filppula / Nemeth type, whatever, but no thanks on Hall, Pietrangelo, Krug, etc., players that are going to be massively overpaid in salary / term.

Sign our big name RFA's, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri to hopefully team friendly contracts, and maybe one or two of Erne, Perlini, Ehn, Timashov, Bowey to near league minimum contracts, and let everyone else walk. I'd also be okay with bringing Gagner back on a short-term contract.

I'm still hopeful that Yzerman gets creative and signs a player like Sergachev to an offer sheet. I think a bold move like that, along with getting a top two pick in the upcoming draft, and we will be in great shape going forward. Likely not a playoff team by next season, but the season after, I think we would be in position to make a strong push.

[13dangledangle 957]

3 hours ago, Dabura said:

Oh, don't get me wrong -- I wouldn't want an all-in, playoffs-or-bust approach to this offseason. And I don't think there's any chance Yzerman will be swayed to think that way at this point in the rebuild, even if we get Lafreniere. Suter-Parise 2.0 is not in the cards for us this offseason; Yzerman won't be signing Hall and Pietrangelo. lol! But if we get Lafreniere and if it's looking like next season will be truncated, I think we might see Yzerman take a slightly more ambitious, aggressive approach to this offseason than he otherwise would.

Maybe we do need to be solidly in the mix for the 1st overall pick next season, even if we get Lafreniere. I'm willing to accept that a bad 2020-21 season is what's best for this franchise's long-term health. At the same time, I do think meaningful regular season hockey and a surprise playoff berth would be a good thing. This season was rough for everyone in Red Wings world. It was rough for the franchise. It was rough for the brand. It was rough for the players. It was rough for the fans. Just look at the state of this forum.

Aint that the truth!  I do think we will ice a better looking club this year, but I think we will really notice a difference the year after and maybe even our first playoff push since 2016.

I wont lie though when I first saw Pietrangelo on the list I was all in, Ive always loved that guy.  Unfortunately just wrong time for us though he will be a difference maker for someone.  I also think after Yzermans inaugural season his approach will be ambitious & aggressive-in a very calculated Yzerman fashion.  In seeing interview after interview with the him, this guy knows his sh*t.  He knows the players throughout the league and no doubt has players he thinks will fit if he could "kick the right tire" to get them here.  He has a brain that always seems to be thinking hockey and currently its thinking MDGA-Make Detroit Great Again (lets make hats!)-I obviously buy into the Yzerplan and I dont think it'll take long until we see the results.  

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Other than signing a cheap backup goaltender, I hope Yzerman stays away from free agency this offseason. Especially the big name free agents the day free agency opens... If he wants to sign another stop-gap Filppula / Nemeth type, whatever, but no thanks on Hall, Pietrangelo, Krug, etc., players that are going to be massively overpaid in salary / term.

Sign our big name RFA's, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri to hopefully team friendly contracts, and maybe one or two of Erne, Perlini, Ehn, Timashov, Bowey to near league minimum contracts, and let everyone else walk. I'd also be okay with bringing Gagner back on a short-term contract.

I'm still hopeful that Yzerman gets creative and signs a player like Sergachev to an offer sheet. I think a bold move like that, along with getting a top two pick in the upcoming draft, and we will be in great shape going forward. Likely not a playoff team by next season, but the season after, I think we would be in position to make a strong push.

Disagree. For a couple of reasons:

1. If you can add a guy like Pietrangelo it would do wonders for the development of Seider, Hronek, Cholowski, Lindstrom (and in a couple of years maybe McIsaac, Tuomisto, Johansson - I know they won't all make it and if they do, trades!) not to mention the development of the forwards. 

2. Pietrangelo > Sergachev. Would signing Alex not be a "bold move" and would you not want a guy like that on the team to "make a strong playoff push"? 

We'd still likely be a lotto team next year with Pietrangelo.

Anyway it's not going to happen but I think fans are crazy when they say they wouldn't want to add ONE elite player to their roster regardless of where the team is at in their rebuild. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Disagree. For a couple of reasons:

1. If you can add a guy like Pietrangelo it would do wonders for the development of Seider, Hronek, Cholowski, Lindstrom (and in a couple of years maybe McIsaac, Tuomisto, Johansson - I know they won't all make it and if they do, trades!) not to mention the development of the forwards. 

2. Pietrangelo > Sergachev. Would signing Alex not be a "bold move" and would you not want a guy like that on the team to "make a strong playoff push"? 

We'd still likely be a lotto team next year with Pietrangelo.

Anyway it's not going to happen but I think fans are crazy when they say they wouldn't want to add ONE elite player to their roster regardless of where the team is at in their rebuild. 

It's not about not wanting to add elite talent. Of course you want to add elite talent, but circumstances matter. I highly doubt a player like Pietrangelo (who by the way, has been one of my favorite defensemen since entering the league) has any desire to go from one of the best teams in the NHL, winning the Cup last spring, to one of the worst teams in the NHL, finishing dead last (by a wide margin) this spring.

Let's say Pietrangelo was willing to go from first to worst (I highly doubt it), we would still have to massively overpay in both dollars and term to make it work. We'd be looking at max term (seven years), for a player that will be 31 next season. How is that contract going to look in a 4-5 years? My bet, like most contracts signed on July 1st (or whatever day it falls on this year), is not very good...

Sure, Pietrangelo is much better than Sergachev right now, and likely will be for another few seasons. However, one will soon start a decline, while the other will just be entering his prime. Keep in mind, regardless who we sign or trade for, we're likely another 3+ years away from becoming a serious Cup contender, and that's if everything goes right...

I'd love to have a Pietrangelo type of defenseman on the team for the young guys to learn from. But Kronwall is around for that exact purpose, and maybe we can convince Lidstrom to come back at some point as well... I know a coach can't teach you the same thing in practice that a player can in a game, but I'm sure Seider, Hronek, Cholowski, McIsaac, etc. could learn a few things from Lidstrom and / or Kronner...

[Dabura 12,206]

On 6/8/2020 at 7:45 AM, krsmith17 said:

Other than signing a cheap backup goaltender, I hope Yzerman stays away from free agency this offseason. Especially the big name free agents the day free agency opens... If he wants to sign another stop-gap Filppula / Nemeth type, whatever, but no thanks on Hall, Pietrangelo, Krug, etc., players that are going to be massively overpaid in salary / term.

Sign our big name RFA's, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri to hopefully team friendly contracts, and maybe one or two of Erne, Perlini, Ehn, Timashov, Bowey to near league minimum contracts, and let everyone else walk. I'd also be okay with bringing Gagner back on a short-term contract.

I'm still hopeful that Yzerman gets creative and signs a player like Sergachev to an offer sheet. I think a bold move like that, along with getting a top two pick in the upcoming draft, and we will be in great shape going forward. Likely not a playoff team by next season, but the season after, I think we would be in position to make a strong push.

On 6/8/2020 at 10:22 AM, The 91 of Ryans said:

Disagree. For a couple of reasons:

1. If you can add a guy like Pietrangelo it would do wonders for the development of Seider, Hronek, Cholowski, Lindstrom (and in a couple of years maybe McIsaac, Tuomisto, Johansson - I know they won't all make it and if they do, trades!) not to mention the development of the forwards. 

2. Pietrangelo > Sergachev. Would signing Alex not be a "bold move" and would you not want a guy like that on the team to "make a strong playoff push"? 

We'd still likely be a lotto team next year with Pietrangelo.

Anyway it's not going to happen but I think fans are crazy when they say they wouldn't want to add ONE elite player to their roster regardless of where the team is at in their rebuild. 

On 6/8/2020 at 12:07 PM, krsmith17 said:

It's not about not wanting to add elite talent. Of course you want to add elite talent, but circumstances matter. I highly doubt a player like Pietrangelo (who by the way, has been one of my favorite defensemen since entering the league) has any desire to go from one of the best teams in the NHL, winning the Cup last spring, to one of the worst teams in the NHL, finishing dead last (by a wide margin) this spring.

Let's say Pietrangelo was willing to go from first to worst (I highly doubt it), we would still have to massively overpay in both dollars and term to make it work. We'd be looking at max term (seven years), for a player that will be 31 next season. How is that contract going to look in a 4-5 years? My bet, like most contracts signed on July 1st (or whatever day it falls on this year), is not very good...

Sure, Pietrangelo is much better than Sergachev right now, and likely will be for another few seasons. However, one will soon start a decline, while the other will just be entering his prime. Keep in mind, regardless who we sign or trade for, we're likely another 3+ years away from becoming a serious Cup contender, and that's if everything goes right...

I'd love to have a Pietrangelo type of defenseman on the team for the young guys to learn from. But Kronwall is around for that exact purpose, and maybe we can convince Lidstrom to come back at some point as well... I know a coach can't teach you the same thing in practice that a player can in a game, but I'm sure Seider, Hronek, Cholowski, McIsaac, etc. could learn a few things from Lidstrom and / or Kronner...

Pietrangelo ain't happening; I'm sure there are about 25 teams he'd rather play for, and at 30 years old (31 in January), he's probably not worth the kind of contract we'd have to give him to convince him to join our s***show. And Yzerman would probably have to sell him on a quick turnaround, which would mean making other big moves, which would mean replacing Holland with Yzerman was kind of pointless.

In theory, though, I would overpay for a (slightly younger) Pietrangelo type.

But when I talk about the possibility of Yzerman being aggressive this offseason, I'm not really thinking of the cream-of-the-crop UFAs. I'm thinking more along the lines of Robin Lehner, T. J. Brodie, Erik Haula, Craig Smith. These aren't gamechanging players, but, point is, they're better than the players that most people are expecting Yzerman to acquire this offseason (Filppula 2.0, Nemeth 2.0, AHL goalie 2.0).

To be clear: This hypothetical aggressive offseason is predicated on us getting Lafreniere and next season being truncated. Mostly Lafreniere. No Lafreniere means we stick to The Plan 100%. Lafreniere means maybe we treat ourselves a little this offseason, within reason. Lafreniere + shortened 2020-21 season means maybe we shoot for the playoffs, within reason.

So, like, I don't think we kick the Taylor Hall tires if we don't get Lafreniere. And I'm not sure we kick the Taylor Hall tires even if we do get Lafreniere. But I think getting Lafreniere makes Hall a more plausible target, because getting Lafreniere would immediately change the conversation from "We're a one-line team and there really isn't much we can do about that right now" to "We're now one stud winger away from having one of the deepest winger groups in the league."

If you add a truncated 2020-21 season on top of Lafreniere, I think Yzerman would be tempted to ice a team that's genuinely capable of winning more games than it loses.

[LeftWinger 4,936]

who is going to **** themselves if or when Yzerman pulls Hall and Krug out of his butt? Add those two to Lafrienere and I think we can say goodbye to lottery picks for awhile! Stranger things have happened!

[Wings3:16 318]

Fun fact, Johan Franzen and Kyle Brodziak contracts are officially done this summer...not that it mattered - but the fact that Johan's was 11 years makes me feel a bit old

[Dabura 12,206]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

who is going to **** themselves if or when Yzerman pulls Hall and Krug out of his butt? Add those two to Lafrienere and I think we can say goodbye to lottery picks for awhile! Stranger things have happened!

Honestly, it wouldn't be a *huge* surprise to me. Getting Lafreniere would be a gamechanger for our rebuild.

Assuming Green is gone, we need to add a veteran top-four puck-moving defenseman, preferably one who's a power play monster. That's with or without Lafreniere. In this regard, Krug is a fit. (In certain other regards...maybe not so much.) And there's also the Michigan connection, though I doubt that means much.

If we add Hall on top of Lafreniere, we have a Cup-caliber top-nine winger group of Hall, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Lafreniere, Fabbri, Zadina. In theory, that would compensate for a lack of gamebreaking talent at center and a thin blue line. Also, we'd finally have a legit position of strength (in theory), so maybe we trade a winger for a defenseman.

Am I expecting us to get Lafreniere? No. Even if we get Lafreniere, would I expect Yzerman to make some huge moves? No. But...at the same time..."31st overall team picks 1st and signs a couple of big UFAs" is maybe not as unrealistic as our pessimistic brains would have us believe.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, Dabura said:

Assuming Green is gone, we need to add a veteran top-four puck-moving defenseman, preferably one who's a power play monster.

Did you miss the part where we traded him to Edmonton?

[ely s 457]

8 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Did you miss the part where we traded him to Edmonton?

we can still give him a  one year contracton  july 1st  and trade him again at the deadline...