2020 Offseason

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I can understand why you'd think this, but I don't think that the evidence (or logic) concur with your assessment. Here's why I say the BLM line is a beast:

Premise 1: The BLM line is Detroit's only good line.

Premise 2: As a result they get the highest quality of competition.

Premise 3: They cave in that competition to the extent that their possession metrics are the 10th best in the league, as a line. https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/teams/detroit-red-wings/line-combinations/

Conclusion 1: The BLM line faces the best every night, and controls the play against the best every night in most instances.

Conclusion 2: Throw the BLM line out against other team's top lines, cancel those other team's top lines out (or actively beat them) and let your 2nd line full of offensive guys (as per my original proposal) run up the scoreboard.

Premise 3: Correct me if I'm wrong, but dailyfaceoff is used for fantasy hockey, and ratings are based on fantasy points. If that's the case I'm not moved by this metric at all.

BLM is a 60 pt center, flanked by a 55 pt LW, and a 70 pt RW who's unfortunately only usually around for half the games. They're a good line, maybe even a top15 first line in this league, but there's nothing remarkable there to me. In an ideal world I would put more elite players on top of Larkin and Bertuzzi and maybe keep Mantha up on the 1st line (if he can stay healthy).

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

8 hours ago, Dabura said:

We should be kicking the tires on Phillip Danault.

Why lol hes another guy bitching hes a top 6 so he can get more pts and a bigger contract

We have enough bottom 6 guys 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

We already have Phillip Danault. His name is Joe Veleno.

But we're trading him to Montreal. Haven't you heard? 

[krsmith17 7,191]

20 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

But we're trading him to Montreal. Haven't you heard? 

Yeah, I seen what you dumb-dumbs were saying...

Mantha is not being traded, unless it's a massive return. Domi isn't close.

Veleno isn't being traded either. He's our future 2C.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, I seen what you dumb-dumbs were saying...

Mantha is not being traded, unless it's a massive return. Domi isn't close.

Veleno isn't being traded either. He's our future 2C.

*imagines 10 more years of not being able to score more than 2 goals a game and quietly cries* 

[krsmith17 7,191]

27 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

*imagines 10 more years of not being able to score more than 2 goals a game and quietly cries* 

I'd love to hear your explanation as to why you're so low on Veleno... Why is it that you don't think he could become a more than capable 2C?

I've heard many Red Wings fans advocating to add a Danault or Cirelli type center. I don't think there's any reason to think that Veleno can't become a player similar to those guys... A 40-50 point two-way 2C.

Edited September 4, 2020 by krsmith17

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd love to hear your explanation as to why you're so low on Veleno... Why is it that you don't think he could become a more than capable 2C?

I've heard many Red Wings fans advocating to add a Danault or Cirelli type center. I don't think there's any reason to this that Veleno can't become a player similar to those guys... A 40-50 point two-way 2C.

I just don't see him producing enough offence. I think either he or Rasmussen will make terrific 3rd line centers. Which means one of them is expendable. 

You'd seriously not do Mantha + Veleno and the later of this years 2nd rounders for Domi + Romanov? 

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I just don't see him producing enough offence.

Why though? You're going to have to give more than that...

He was a force offensively in the Q, and most players his age would have still been in juniors last season. The only reason he was AHL eligible, is because he had already played 4 years of junior (exceptional status). He played very well as an underager last season, and really came on towards the end of the season. 23 points in 54 games, mostly as a 19 year old, isn't nothing, and he's right there with, or even slightly ahead of the two guys I just mentioned at the same age.

7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I think either he or Rasmussen will make terrific 3rd line centers. Which means one of them is expendable. 

If we have Veleno as our 3C, it would obviously be because we have a better option as our 2C, and incredible center depth, which I'm all for. I just think Veleno could be that player in a few years.

Let's not get into which one of Veleno or Rasmussen should be expendable, but I don't see any reason we would have to move either, since one of them (Rasmussen) could easily move to the wing...

13 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

You'd seriously not do Mantha + Veleno and the later of this years 2nd rounders for Domi + Romanov? 

I'm very high on Romanov, so I'd obviously have to consider it, but really, I don't think he's any more than a sure thing than Veleno at this point. I also think Domi is highly overrated. The only thing he has over Mantha, is health, and if Mantha can stay healthy, he's a far superior player.

[LeftWinger 4,936]

20 hours ago, F.Michael said:

I'm pretty indifferent with Krug becoming a Red Wing, but I doubt he'd want to come to Detroit we're still in the middle of a rebuild.

This is true, BUT, he has won already, he's a Champion, sure he'd probably like to win some more, BUT he did say "This is MY time in terms of my value at it's peak."  Which sounds like to me that he is going to go where the money is. Now maybe there will be Cup contenders out there willing to give him "his value" but there is no doubt that Detroit can afford him, plus it is home to him. I have no issue if Yzerman signs him. You have to start with that ONE valuable name in order to attract more to the mix. Continue to draft and develop, make trades, but you do need UFA's as well. Krug would be one of the big names available and if he put his faith in Detroit, then another or two may want to follow in the coming years. Adding Krug, even for 7 years,only helps this team in the short term and the long term. We aren't going to win the Cup over night, not ALL of our prospects are going to "develop" into Cup champion quality. You NEED Vets like Krug to help move the kids along. He may sign 7 years, and we may not win a Cup in those years, but we WILL become a playoff team within 2-3 and he will be very valuable to our team and the development of players like Hronek, Seider and McIssac. We can still acquire a "big contract" or two as well in order to get picks/prospects. We can still sign top 6 UFA material. We have TONS of cap space, plus Z's LTIR if needed. If Yzerman makes a deal or two, signs a couple of UFA's, maybe if we get a compliance buyout, when can rid ourselves of Nielsen or Abby's contract as well.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Why though? You're going to have to give more than that...

Because that's the book on him at the pro level? This team needs lights-out skill in the top six. Especially at center, since Larkin's offence is fine but not holys***dude fine. Veleno does not fit that profile. 

 

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm very high on Romanov, so I'd obviously have to consider it, but really, I don't think he's any more than a sure thing than Veleno at this point. I also think Domi is highly overrated. The only thing he has over Mantha, is health, and if Mantha can stay healthy, he's a far superior player.

I'd rather keep Mantha vs Domi because Max isn't skilled enough to play center in my future top six either. BUT I'd trade Mantha and Veleno and take Domi back if it meant we could acquire Romanov

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

30 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Why though? You're going to have to give more than that...

He was a force offensively in the Q, and most players his age would have still been in juniors last season. The only reason he was AHL eligible, is because he had already played 4 years of junior (exceptional status). He played very well as an underager last season, and really came on towards the end of the season. 23 points in 54 games, mostly as a 19 year old, isn't nothing, and he's right there with, or even slightly ahead of the two guys I just mentioned at the same age.

Veleno wasn't very impressive in the AHL. Kid shoulda never got exceptional status in the Q, which is reflective of his draft position and average play in the AHL.

36 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Let's not get into which one of Veleno or Rasmussen should be expendable, but I don't see any reason we would have to move either, since one of them (Rasmussen) could easily move to the wing...

Veleno should and could easily move to wing. Rasmussen is much stronger defensively.

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Because that's the book on him at the pro level? This team needs lights-out skill in the top six. Especially at center, since Larkin's offence is fine but not holys***dude fine. Veleno does not fit that profile. 

I'm sure "the book" on Danault or Cirelli was much the same at the same age though... I don't think there's any reason to think that Veleno can't become every bit as good or better than either of those guys. 

I'm all for acquiring more young center prospects, to increase our odds of one of them turning into something special, but Domi is not the answer. Larkin isn't finished developing yet either, and although some think he's a 2C dressed up as a 1C, I believe he is / will be a legit, high caliber 1C.

24 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I'd rather keep Mantha vs Domi because Max isn't skilled enough to play center in my future top six either. BUT I'd trade Mantha and Veleno and take Domi back if it meant we could acquire Romanov

Well why even include Mantha and Domi, if Mantha isn't a player you're interested in moving, and Domi isn't a player you're interested in acquiring? Romanov is a high-end prospect, but it's not like he's Rasmus Dahlin or anything. He should be able to be had without giving up Mantha. If not, no thanks...

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Veleno wasn't very impressive in the AHL. Kid shoulda never got exceptional status in the Q, which is reflective of his draft position and average play in the AHL.

Veleno should and could easily move to wing. Rasmussen is much stronger defensively.

Forgive me for taking everything you say with a pound of salt. I'm sure you do the same for me. We just see things very differently regarding our young players / prospects... Larkin, Zadina, Veleno, etc.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm all for acquiring more young center prospects, to increase our odds of one of them turning into something special, but Domi is not the answer. Larkin isn't finished developing yet either, and although some think he's a 2C dressed up as a 1C, I believe he is / will be a legit, high caliber 1C.

Larkin - career scoring rate: 0.68

Domi - career scoring rate: 0.67

But Larkin is a high caliber 1C and Domi is not the answer...

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Larkin - career scoring rate: 0.68

Domi - career scoring rate: 0.67

But Larkin is a high caliber 1C and Domi is not the answer...

Uh, yeah. I'm not sure if you're being facetious, but Larkin is a much better center than Domi...

Also, it's not Larkin that we're comparing to Domi, it's Mantha, and Mantha is also a much better player than Domi, regardless of position.

[Dabura 12,206]

6 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

We already have Phillip Danault. His name is Joe Veleno.

3 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Why lol hes another guy bitching hes a top 6 so he can get more pts and a bigger contract

We have enough bottom 6 guys 

We need legit center help and we need it yesterday, even if the plan is to suck.

Veleno's coming off a could've-been-better AHL rookie season. I don't know when he's going to be ready. I certainly don't know when or if he's going to be as good an NHL centerman as Danault. Danault's a low-key outstanding veteran shutdown centerman:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/d/danauph01-advanced-ev.html

Add Danault and Larkin's life immediately becomes much easier. Which, in theory, means we score more goals and allow fewer goals.

Send the Habs Fabbri + pick/prospect for Danault. Sign Craig Smith and maybe also take a flier on Alex Galchenyuk, who actually performed pretty well in his short stint with the Wild.

Bertuzzi -- Larkin -- Mantha
Zadina -- Danault -- Smith
x -- (Galchenyuk?) -- x
x -- x -- x

That's a respectable top six/seven for a team that's trying to pick itself up off the floor and claw its way back to respectability. AND it means we don't necessarily have to hope and pray that Veleno or Rasmussen becomes a legit middle-six centerman before Larkin dies of exhaustion. AND, on top of all that, we're likely drafting a forward at 4th overall.

On the back end...I'd like to add T.J. Brodie, but I doubt he'd sign with us unless it's a huge overpayment. So sign Brenden Dillon, assuming he'd be cheaper.

Dillon -- Hronek
DeKeyser -- Seider
Nemeth -- Bowey

In net...flip a pick/prospect for Igor Shesterkin and see what he can do.

There. I just constructed a (theoretically) competitive 2020-21 Wings roster that doesn't feature a single blockbuster addition. For my next, less impressive trick, I will turn water into wine...

Edited September 4, 2020 by Dabura

[krsmith17 7,191]

49 minutes ago, Dabura said:

We need legit center help and we need it yesterday, even if the plan is to suck.

Veleno's coming off a could've-been-better AHL rookie season. I don't know when he's going to be ready. I certainly don't know when or if he's going to be as good an NHL centerman as Danault. Danault's a low-key outstanding veteran shutdown centerman:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/d/danauph01-advanced-ev.html

Add Danault and Larkin's life immediately becomes much easier. Which, in theory, means we score more goals and allow fewer goals.

Send the Habs Fabbri + pick/prospect for Danault. Sign Craig Smith and maybe also take a flier on Alex Galchenyuk, who actually performed pretty well in his short stint with the Wild.

I'd be okay with acquiring a Danault caliber player via free agency, or a younger version Danault caliber player via trade, but I have no interest in giving up assets for 27 year old Phillip Danault. There are other options available. Besides, I highly doubt Montreal are shopping him.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Uh, yeah. I'm not sure if you're being facetious, but Larkin is a much better center than Domi...

Also, it's not Larkin that we're comparing to Domi, it's Mantha, and Mantha is also a much better player than Domi, regardless of position.

Larkin's career scoring rate - 0.68

Domi's career scoring rate - 0.67

Mantha's career scoring rate - 0.66

But trust me Larkin and Mantha are so much better than Domi. Nothing to see here. Just trust me.

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Larkin's career scoring rate - 0.68

Domi's career scoring rate - 0.67

Mantha's career scoring rate - 0.66

But trust me Larkin and Mantha are so much better than Domi. Nothing to see here. Just trust me.

Yup, scoring rate is obviously the only way to determine which forward is better...

[F.Michael 4,590]

20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yup, scoring rate is obviously the only way to determine which forward is better...

I like Domi since I see him as a more skilled version of Bertuzzi.

My take on all of this is we're likely to see Mantha holding out (although he can file for arbitration), and possibly more injured filled seasons.

Edited September 4, 2020 by F.Michael

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

28 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Larkin's career scoring rate - 0.68

Domi's career scoring rate - 0.67

Mantha's career scoring rate - 0.66

But trust me Larkin and Mantha are so much better than Domi. Nothing to see here. Just trust me.

If Domi was asked to do what Larkin's been asked to do for the last 2 seasons he'd be dead right now. 

RIP lil Tie

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I like Domi since I find him a more skilled version of Bertuzzi.

My take on all of this is we're likely to see Mantha holding out (although he can file for arbitration), and possibly more injured filled seasons.

Why would you assume a hold out? He's made it very clear that he wants to stay in Detroit. I don't see any reason he and Yzerman can't come to terms on a new contract, good for both sides. I also don't see injuries as a major concern. He hasn't had any recurring injuries, and there's no reason to assume he will continue with the string of bad luck. If he can stop punching helmets, I think we will finally see a healthy season out of Mantha.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Yup, scoring rate is obviously the only way to determine which forward is better...

Production is pretty important for top6 forwards. Domi brings a lot of intangibles himself as well.

46 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I like Domi since I see him as a more skilled version of Bertuzzi.

Agreed

43 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

If Domi was asked to do what Larkin's been asked to do for the last 2 seasons he'd be dead right now. 

RIP lil Tie

IDK Domi was actually a lot better at center than he ever was at wing IMO. Baffling to me why the Habs moved him.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

59 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Why would you assume a hold out? He's made it very clear that he wants to stay in Detroit. I don't see any reason he and Yzerman can't come to terms on a new contract, good for both sides. I also don't see injuries as a major concern. He hasn't had any recurring injuries, and there's no reason to assume he will continue with the string of bad luck. If he can stop punching helmets, I think we will finally see a healthy season out of Mantha.

Because he and his agent probably see: future 35-40 goal scorer 

and Yzerman sees: oft injured soon-to-be 26 year old that has never breached 25 goals  in one season

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

To MTL: Zadina

To DET: Domi + Romanov