2020 Offseason

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 minutes ago, NineLegs said:

? does it matter?

You suggested that someone or maybe everyone (except you) thinks that Yzerman is the only GM lowballing players, so it kind of does matter.

7 minutes ago, NineLegs said:

The point is we're not getting Hoffman.

Great point... Who is getting Hoffman?

[Dabura 12,207]

On 10/28/2020 at 12:52 PM, LeftWinger said:

Honestly, it's only last season that Mantha would've had outscored Bert if they had played 80 games, and even then it would've only been by 16 points. The other season's they both were between 40 and 50 points.  I don't see where Mantha should get significantly more than Bert. I say $4.5M and call it. Give him a year or two to prove he can consistently get 70+ points, then reward him. He'll be a UFA either way when the contract is over, whether it's 1 or 8 years. He'll be 27 this season. You can't give him the same 2.5% raise, that would net him over $8M, so between $4.5M and $5M for a year or two and let's see him earn the $6M to $8M (or more.)  Just my opinion...

This is kinda where I'm at. I like Mantha and I'm glad we have him, but I dunno that there's a huge gap between him and Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi's quietly emerging as a really solid straw-that-stirs-the-drink type.

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 hours ago, Dabura said:

This is kinda where I'm at. I like Mantha and I'm glad we have him, but I dunno that there's a huge gap between him and Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi's quietly emerging as a really solid straw-that-stirs-the-drink type.

Bertuzzi is a very good complimentary winger that can be effective up and down the lineup. There's a difference between being effective and productive though. Bertuzzi will never be a line driver that can produce offense on his own. He needs to play with good players to put up points, which is fine. Mantha on the other hand, is a line driving winger that can produce offense on his own.

Of course they're going to produce pretty evenly playing on the same line, but make no mistake, most of the offense on that line is flowing through Larkin and Mantha. Bertuzzi is there to grind, retrieve pucks, and score some dirty goals, which he's very good at.

I love Bert, he's a heart and soul player that works like a dog every shift of every game. I don't think you should ever overpay for those types of players though, especially term. I'm not saying he's Abdelkader, but there are definitely similarities in their game and situation they've been put in. Both are / were  3rd line wingers, on a contending team, but can / could play up the lineup effectively. Similar to Hyman in Toronto. No one would suggest that Hyman is a top three forward on that team, but he's very effective in his role on the top line. He will never be paid like a top line player, despite playing on the top line.

If all goes well, in a few years, is Bertuzzi better than any of Mantha, Zadina, Berggren, Raymond, etc? I don't think so. Those are the types of players that you lock up to big money, long-term contracts in my opinion, not the complimentary players.

[Dabura 12,207]

23 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Bertuzzi is a very good complimentary winger that can be effective up and down the lineup. There's a difference between being effective and productive though. Bertuzzi will never be a line driver that can produce offense on his own. He needs to play with good players to put up points, which is fine. Mantha on the other hand, is a line driving winger that can produce offense on his own.

Of course they're going to produce pretty evenly playing on the same line, but make no mistake, most of the offense on that line is flowing through Larkin and Mantha. Bertuzzi is there to grind, retrieve pucks, and score some dirty goals, which he's very good at.

I love Bert, he's a heart and soul player that works like a dog every shift of every game. I don't think you should ever overpay for those types of players though, especially term. I'm not saying he's Abdelkader, but there are definitely similarities in their game and situation they've been put in. Both are / were  3rd line wingers, on a contending team, but can / could play up the lineup effectively. Similar to Hyman in Toronto. No one would suggest that Hyman is a top three forward on that team, but he's very effective in his role on the top line. He will never be paid like a top line player, despite playing on the top line.

If all goes well, in a few years, is Bertuzzi better than any of Mantha, Zadina, Berggren, Raymond, etc? I don't think so. Those are the types of players that you lock up to big money, long-term contracts in my opinion, not the complimentary players.

If Bertuzzi's merely a complementary player who doesn't create his own offense, Mantha's an inconsistent, injury-prone 28-goal-scorer who gets to feast on a cake ES zone starts split of 55/44.

Holmstrom was really good for us. Cleary was really good for us. Players like Bertuzzi aren't necessarily easy to find. If they were, we'd have a lot of them.

Fortunately, we get to have both Mantha and Bertuzzi. All I'm saying is I dunno that Mantha is *much* more important than Bertuzzi.

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, Dabura said:

If Bertuzzi's merely a complementary player who doesn't create his own offense, Mantha's an inconsistent, injury-prone 28-goal-scorer who gets to feast on a cake ES zone starts split of 55/44.

Are you saying that Bertuzzi is more than a complimentary winger? Do you think he can create his own offense with regularity?

Mantha has definitely had his fair share of injuries, but there's no reason to believe they will persist. No recurring injuries. He just needs to stop breaking hands / wrists in fights. I don't think Mantha is any more "inconsistent" than most other goal scorers. In fact, he proved to be very consistent (when healthy) over the past season and a half. When Mantha is healthy, he's one of the most dominant wingers in the league. He can single-handedly take over games. 

35 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Holmstrom was really good for us. Cleary was really good for us. Players like Bertuzzi aren't necessarily easy to find. If they were, we'd have a lot of them.

Good point. Holmstrom was drafted in the 10th round and Cleary was picked up off waivers... Hyman was an undrafted free agent signing, and Hornqvist was a 7th round pick (Mr. Irrelevant)... I'm not saying Bertuzzi type players are "easy to find", but they're definitely much easier to find than Mantha type players.

39 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Fortunately, we get to have both Mantha and Bertuzzi. 

I agree. And both should be a part of this team's core going forward. 

43 minutes ago, Dabura said:

All I'm saying is I dunno that Mantha is *much* more important than Bertuzzi.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this...

[Scott R Lucidi 452]

Mantha at 6-8 million?  Not yet.

He has played in 3/4 of the games in each of his 4 seasons.  He's not injury prone.  He's just missed games do to injury.  Most players do.  Part of the job as a hockey player.

The fact is that his highest point total with top line minutes is 48.  Has he had stretches where he looked like a 6 million a year player?  Yes.  Has he had a season like that?  No.  Not even close.  Mantha goes to arbitration and gets 4.25 million for one year.  Then if he does what he can do for a whole season and puts up 75+ points, he gets the big contract.

But right now, he has not proven he can do that.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

Dun Dun Dun

Another sock bites the dust

Dun Dun Dun

Another sock bites the dust

And another one gone gone and another one gone

Another sock bites the dust

 

[LeftWinger 4,961]

So did they 2nd buyout period go by already?

[Scott R Lucidi 452]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Dun Dun Dun

Another sock bites the dust

Dun Dun Dun

Another sock bites the dust

And another one gone gone and another one gone

Another sock bites the dust

 

Gonna get you yah, another sock bites the dust

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

Mantha at 6-8 million?  Not yet.

He has played in 3/4 of the games in each of his 4 seasons.  He's not injury prone.  He's just missed games do to injury.  Most players do.  Part of the job as a hockey player.

The fact is that his highest point total with top line minutes is 48.  Has he had stretches where he looked like a 6 million a year player?  Yes.  Has he had a season like that?  No.  Not even close.  Mantha goes to arbitration and gets 4.25 million for one year.  Then if he does what he can do for a whole season and puts up 75+ points, he gets the big contract.

But right now, he has not proven he can do that.

I don't really disagree with any of this. He hasn't proven he can be a 75+ point player, over 82 games, but he has proven he can be a 75+ point pace player. If he can stay healthy, he definitely has that sort of upside.

That's why you work on a long-term contract now, before he goes out and proves it next season, and earns an extra mil or two long-term. I'd bet on him now, and hope it pays off. Giving Mantha another half season to prove himself could come back to bite us. 

31 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

So did they 2nd buyout period go by already?

Yes.

[Scott R Lucidi 452]

58 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't really disagree with any of this. He hasn't proven he can be a 75+ point player, over 82 games, but he has proven he can be a 75+ point pace player. If he can stay healthy, he definitely has that sort of upside.

That's why you work on a long-term contract now, before he goes out and proves it next season, and earns an extra mil or two long-term. I'd bet on him now, and hope it pays off. Giving Mantha another half season to prove himself could come back to bite us. 

Yes.

Yes.  5 years, 5 million per you think?

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

Yes.  5 years, 5 million per you think?

I'm sure Yzerman would do it. Unfortunately I don't think Mantha would.

[LeftWinger 4,961]

sorry for this, but it's spot on, funny and (it was made before we hired Yzerman) thank Goodness SOMEONE finally stepped in and forced Ilitch to hire Yzerman! BTW, Thanks Holland for killing us!

[WRusco 43]

Putting this up. Enjoy.

[ely s 457]

I did and it was nice to get a few comforting words about the future of this club. Probably it´s not all bad

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

16 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

sorry for this, but it's spot on, funny and (it was made before we hired Yzerman) thank Goodness SOMEONE finally stepped in and forced Ilitch to hire Yzerman! BTW, Thanks Holland for killing us!

Umm. No one forced Illitch to do anything. And making Holland the scapegoat is inaccurately oversimplifying things.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I'd like to see us get Mike Hoffman signed on a one year deal. I think it makes a lot of sense, provided it's not north of 6 million. I also think it makes sense for him considering he'd get dealt to a contender at the deadline for a shot at the Cup, and he can try again to get a longer term deal at the end of next year when there's more financial flexibility around the league. Plus you could fill out three respectable lines:

Hoffman-Larkin-Mantha

Ryan-Fabbri/Namestnikov-Bert

Filppula-Fabbri/Namestnikov-Zadina

 

[LeftWinger 4,961]

What about Duclair or Perry for a year? I'd sign Hoffman for sure.

These UFA's have to be getting a little worried. There are still 8-10 teams that have to shed salary before the season begins.

Honestly, I'd like to sign Duclair and Hoffman to 1 year deals (maybe 2) and just waive Nielsen and Filppula.

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha

Zadina - Namestikov - Ryan

Duclair - Fabbri - Hoffman

Helm - Gagner - Glendening

Timashov, Svechnikov, Erne to battle it out for the final spots 13 and 14

 

Really, that forward group added to our improved D and G players, it could be a real fun year....at least compared to the last 4-5.

Edited November 2, 2020 by LeftWinger

[kipwinger 8,524]

I suppose you could do the same thing with Duclair, though I wonder how much the blush is off his rose considering he's 25 and has been with like 5 different organizations already. I picked Hoffman because I assume he'd be in higher demand. That and he's just been consistently better, longer, so I feel like he's a safer bet to pump up that trade value before the deadline. Duclair is fine, just a slightly bigger gamble. Hoffman seems like a pretty much guaranteed 2nd round pick and prospect to me.

[marcaractac 3,963]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I'd like to see us get Mike Hoffman signed on a one year deal. I think it makes a lot of sense, provided it's not north of 6 million. I also think it makes sense for him considering he'd get dealt to a contender at the deadline for a shot at the Cup, and he can try again to get a longer term deal at the end of next year when there's more financial flexibility around the league. Plus you could fill out three respectable lines:

Hoffman-Larkin-Mantha

Ryan-Fabbri/Namestnikov-Bert

Filppula-Fabbri/Namestnikov-Zadina

 

Gotta imagine he'd be off the market by now if he was willing to take 6 million for one year. I'd offer him whatever it took if he is willing to sign. Retain half the salary at the deadline, and all is well. If any RFA or UFA points at that contract crying about their own value, it's an attempt to buy a first round pick or high end prospect +.

Regardless, Hoffman for one year is likely a pipe dream as I said previously. But it would be a hell of a move for the trade deadline haul.

[kipwinger 8,524]

9 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Gotta imagine he'd be off the market by now if he was willing to take 6 million for one year. I'd offer him whatever it took if he is willing to sign. Retain half the salary at the deadline, and all is well. If any RFA or UFA points at that contract crying about their own value, it's an attempt to buy a first round pick or high end prospect +.

Regardless, Hoffman for one year is likely a pipe dream as I said previously. But it would be a hell of a move for the trade deadline haul.

I'm sure he wanted price and term, but he probably always wanted a bunch of different suitors bidding over him and driving up his price. That's just not gonna happen this offseason with the flat cap and lost revenue. Better to keep his options open like Hall did. Every day he doesn't sign is one day closer to that outcome IMO.

[marcaractac 3,963]

12 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm sure he wanted price and term, but he probably always wanted a bunch of different suitors bidding over him and driving up his price. That's just not gonna happen this offseason with the flat cap and lost revenue. Better to keep his options open like Hall did. Every day he doesn't sign is one day closer to that outcome IMO.

Absolutely, but he has since said he'd be willing to go the one year deal route. That's when I was like f***, hope Yzerman is working some magic here. I do think he is waiting to see what happens with next season starting. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

I'd give him a 1 year, 6 million contract with bonuses for signing and bonuses for hitting a certain number of goals before the deadline.

[marcaractac 3,963]

7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'd give him a 1 year, 6 million contract with bonuses for signing and bonuses for hitting a certain number of goals before the deadline.

Not the worst idea at all. Bonuses to keep him motivated to perform and maintain trade value. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

What about Duclair or Perry for a year? I'd sign Hoffman for sure.

These UFA's have to be getting a little worried. There are still 8-10 teams that have to shed salary before the season begins.

Honestly, I'd like to sign Duclair and Hoffman to 1 year deals (maybe 2) and just waive Nielsen and Filppula.

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha

Zadina - Namestikov - Ryan

Duclair - Fabbri - Hoffman

Helm - Gagner - Glendening

Timashov, Svechnikov, Erne to battle it out for the final spots 13 and 14

 

Really, that forward group added to our improved D and G players, it could be a real fun year....at least compared to the last 4-5.

Under different circumstances, I would consider a 1 year deal for Duclair. But considering we already have Svechnikov and Timashov ( both 24) already fighting for roster spots,  I don't think adding a 25 yo Duclair makes much sense. Especially when he hasn't proven to be significantly better than the other 2, despite being given multiple opportunities. Would rather give Svech and Timo legit shots, and see what they can do.

Would be more interested in Hoffman if he was a center.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie