2020 Offseason

[AtlantaHotWings 987]

12 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

You don't (maybe) ask a guy to switch to C and then ask him to be the team's #1 C. 

The fact that this is even a discussion is bonkers

and she is a hockey writer?

[kipwinger 8,524]

26 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

You don't (maybe) ask a guy to switch to C and then ask him to be the team's #1 C. 

The fact that this is even a discussion is bonkers

HSJ is a dingbat.

My biggest concerns would be whether Fabbri can consistently win faceoffs against top centers (he probably can't) and whether he can defend against top centers (he probably can't). We don't have other options, so I don't mind them trying him at center, but assuming that guy can out compete legit top centers is absurd.

Edited November 5, 2020 by kipwinger

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

12 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

HSJ is a dingbat.

My biggest concerns would be whether Fabbri can consistently win faceoffs against top centers (he probably can't) and whether he can defend against top centers (he probably can't). We don't have other options, so I don't mind them trying him at center, but assuming that guy can out compete legit top centers is absurd.

I mean, he can't out compete Larkin. So really, there's not much else to say. 

People give HSJ a hard time and sometimes I feel sorry for her but then I read articles like this one. I don't know what she's thinking. Unless she wasn't trying to say Fabbri should be #1 C rather just that he should be Mantha's C? I dunno. It's so dumb it has to be a misunderstanding. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

16 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I mean, he can't out compete Larkin. So really, there's not much else to say. 

People give HSJ a hard time and sometimes I feel sorry for her but then I read articles like this one. I don't know what she's thinking. Unless she wasn't trying to say Fabbri should be #1 C rather just that he should be Mantha's C? I dunno. It's so dumb it has to be a misunderstanding. 

I just don't think she knows anything at all about how hockey is actually played on the ice. People who have never played only understand the game from a fan's perspective, and that can be misleading. If you're a below 50% faceoff guy you'll never, ever, ever, ever be a top center in the league. No coach on earth is going to play a guy 20+ minutes a night knowing full well that the other team's best guys are going to start with the puck more than half the time. Same with defense. It's all well and good that Fabbri is a decent playmaker, but if you're giving up more chances (to another team's top guys) than you're generating then you're never going to get top line minutes, regardless of your production.

With our current lineup I'd probably do something like this:

Ryan-Larkin-Mantha (decent enough two-way, big minutes, top line)

Bert-Namestnikov-Filppula (responsible line defensively, with a little offense for matchups)

Gagner-Fabbri-Zadina (offensive line to feast on mismatches/bottom pair defenders)

Helm-Glendening-Erne/Nielsen (defensive and special teams line)

Or Maybe....

Ryan-Larkin-Mantha

Bert-Namestnikov-Fabbri

Gagner-Filppula-Zadina

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Larkin only had 53 points this year. He is indeed trending downward.

Fabbri on the other hand just had a breakout season and is trending upward. Clearly Yzerman trusts him a lot if he is moving him to C and awarding him these big contracts. I would not at all be surprised to see him as the top C on this team.

Just because Fabbri plays C doesn't mean he takes the faceoff. Glendening often plays wing but will take the faceoff for his center. Your argument is irrelevant.

Which top line winger on our team do you think would take the faceoffs then?

[marcaractac 3,963]

17 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Larkin only had 53 points this year. He is indeed trending downward.

Fabbri on the other hand just had a breakout season and is trending upward. Clearly Yzerman trusts him a lot if he is moving him to C and awarding him these big contracts. I would not at all be surprised to see him as the top C on this team.

Just because Fabbri plays C doesn't mean he takes the faceoff. Glendening often plays wing but will take the faceoff for his center. Your argument is irrelevant.

One year is not an indication of a trend...

Fabbri shouldn;t touch center in the top 6 at this stage. If he dominates center on the third line, try him on the second line. No sane hockey mind would ever start Fabbri as the first line center. If Larkin was not on this team, Fabbri wouldn't start as the #1 center. Glendening would play 1C at this point before Fabbri. At least he can match up against high end players defensively.

And for the record, Fabbri did not have a breakout season. He simply matched his production from the season before his injuries. AKA he has finally become the player he was 4 years ago. 

20 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Which top line winger on our team do you think would take the faceoffs then?

Haven't you heard? Flip is clearly our top line winger 

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Filppula, literally the guy on HSJ's line with Fabbri. Or the newcomer Namestnikov.

I saw her lines. I'm suggesting that's a terrible idea for a multitude of reasons. If you think having Fabbri AND Filppula on your top line is a good idea then I don't really know what else to say. You win.

[marcaractac 3,963]

4 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I saw her lines. I'm suggesting that's a terrible idea for a multitude of reasons. If you think having Fabbri AND Filppula on your top line is a good idea then I don't really know what else to say. You win.

Filppula and Fabbri on the top line is a great idea if we wanna see a repeat of last year's goal differential. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

13 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

No. What I believe you were suggesting was that there was no one in the top 6 to take faceoffs for Fabbri. I have proven you wrong there.

If I remember correctly Filppula was always a better winger than he was a center during his time in Detroit previously. I think moving him to wing is a great idea. Let the kids grow into the larger roles at center.

Nope. I suggested that there's no top line (which is where you'd like to see Fabbri) winger who can take faceoffs for him. It never occured to me that any sane person would consider Filppula a top line player at this point in his career.

But I'll bite. Filppula only won 44% of his faceoffs last season. So if you want to let him take the faceoffs then you'd be letting top line opposition players start with the puck about 55% of the time. Certainly that's better than Fabbri's 39% faceoff win percentage, but it's still a f*cking nightmare. So good thinking.

Namestnikov, before you try, is a career 44% faceoff guy. So he can't do it (effectively) either.

Edited November 5, 2020 by kipwinger

[marcaractac 3,963]

5 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Many wouldn't consider Bobby Ryan a top6 player at this point in his career, yet you all seem to be fine thrusting him into the 1st or 2nd line...

Filppula's FO% is 4th best on the team (behind Larkin, Glendening, and Nielsen) 5th if you lump in Namestnikov. So if you want to hyperfocus on faceoffs, then lets. I don't see Nielsen or Glendening moving from their bottom 6 center roles. So faceoff wise it makes logical sense to keep Fil or Namestnikov in the top 6 to take faceoffs. Exactly who I suggested.

Next.

So you're literally saying Flip is our worst center at faceoffs, and we should let him do so on the first line because of that?

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

Fabbri should never be a top line center on any team, at least not until he proves that he can be a center in the NHL. The faceoff percentage is being vastly overstated though. Yes faceoffs matter, but they don't matter nearly as much as kip is making it seem. A 45% center can win a faceoff against a 55% center on any given draw. It's still basically a coin flip. What happens after a faceoff win or loss is what matters much more, and that's where Fabbri would fall short to Larkin, as well as any other 1C in the league.

1 hour ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Larkin only had 53 points this year. He is indeed trending downward.

Fabbri on the other hand just had a breakout season and is trending upward. Clearly Yzerman trusts him a lot if he is moving him to C and awarding him these big contracts. I would not at all be surprised to see him as the top C on this team.

Larkin was just under a point per game center the season before. The team last season was historically bad. That's not on Larkin. You can't assume a downward trend because of one down season. I guarantee Larkin will outpace his points from this past season, next season. He will also out produce Fabbri while playing against tougher competition every night.

Assuming both are healthy, Fabbri will not play a bigger role on this team next season (or any season) than Larkin. Sorry man, but I really can't believe this is even a discussion, much less a debate.

[kipwinger 8,524]

3 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

No. I'm saying he or Namestnikov would be best suited to take faceoffs for Fabbri in a top6 winger role.

Glendening is a bottom6er and I don't think Nielsen has played wing in his entire career.

You're changing your story. An hour ago you were arguing that Fabbri, and not Larkin should be our 1C. Which means more minutes and more (lost) faceoffs against top players. And your magical cure for this is to have another terrible player do it for him, instead of just having Larkin do it? 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

27 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Many wouldn't consider Bobby Ryan a top6 player at this point in his career, yet you all seem to be fine thrusting him into the 1st or 2nd line...

Filppula's FO% is 4th best on the team (behind Larkin, Glendening, and Nielsen) 5th if you lump in Namestnikov. So if you want to hyperfocus on faceoffs, then lets. I don't see Nielsen or Glendening moving from their bottom 6 center roles. So faceoff wise it makes logical sense to keep Fil or Namestnikov in the top 6 to take faceoffs. Exactly who I suggested.

Next.

I have an idea. Let's let the guy (Larkin) who is already our 1C and is our best faceoff guy and has shown chemistry with Bertuzzi and Mantha be the 1C. 

What's everyone think of this? 

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I have an idea. Let's let the guy (Larkin) who is already our 1C and is our best faceoff guy and has shown chemistry with Bertuzzi and Mantha be the 1C. 

What's everyone think of this? 

Nah. Doesn't make any sense...

I have a better idea. Try the guy that's never played any significant center at the NHL level there. What's the worst that could happen?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

So what you're saying is.....all of our options at C, after Larkin, suck.

[krsmith17 7,191]

15 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

If we are going to split up Mantha and Larkin (which you agreed was a good idea) then one is gonna have to play on the 2nd line. I don't think Larkin's line should automatically get the most icetime each night because Mantha has shown he is worthy of a 1st line winger role. That means sometimes Larkin WILL be 2C.

Any night Robby Fabbri is getting more ice time than Dylan Larkin, it's bad line management by the coach. 

23 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Yzerman disagrees with you

What? Post a quote of Yzerman saying that Fabbri will be our number one center next season, and I'm sure you'll shut up everyone that's disagreeing with you.

He's never said anything close to that...

2 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

So what you're saying is.....all of our options at C, after Larkin, suck.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I think Fabbri, Namestnikov, and Filppula could be decent middle six centers. I would however say that all of our options at center after Larkin, are nowhere close to the level of player as Larkin.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

So what you're saying is.....all of our options at C, after Larkin, suck.

I thought this was common knowledge? 

[mackel 681]

14 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I thought this was common knowledge? 

And Larkin looks extra good as a result. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

27 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I thought this was common knowledge? 

And yet, here we are.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Any night Robby Fabbri is getting more ice time than Dylan Larkin, it's bad line management by the coach. 

What? Post a quote of Yzerman saying that Fabbri will be our number one center next season, and I'm sure you'll shut up everyone that's disagreeing with you.

He's never said anything close to that...

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I think Fabbri, Namestnikov, and Filppula could be decent middle six centers. I would however say that all of our options at center after Larkin, are nowhere close to the level of player as Larkin.

Would you want any centers (including Fabbri) on this team, besides Larkin, as your full time 2C?

Edited November 5, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

42 minutes ago, mackel said:

And Larkin looks extra good as a result. 

Or. Lack of depth makes it easier for other teams to focus on Larkin. Hockey 101 no? 

[krsmith17 7,191]

33 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Would you want any centers (including Fabbri) on this team, besides Larkin, as your full time 2C?

2C? No, probably not. Is that the bar for "sucks" though? I think all three could be reasonably good 3C's. Veleno is our future 2C, so I'm not too worried about one of Fabbri or Nemestnikov playing 2C for a season or two before JV is ready.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

2C? No, probably not. Is that the bar for "sucks" though? I think all three could be reasonably good 3C's. Veleno is our future 2C, so I'm not too worried about one of Fabbri or Nemestnikov playing 2C for a season or two before JV is ready.

I think its safe to say that the Wings centers, as a group, suck.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

54 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Since you guys lose it over fabbri at 1C as per a proffesional reporter suggests

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Ryan

Filppula - Fabbri - Mantha

Glendening - Namestnikov - Zadina

Erne/Nielsem/Helm/Gagner/Svech

Does that look so unreasonable? Does this trigger you? Shifting the top line down one? Looks pretty okay to me. Looks prety balanced. 

You guys realize Larkin isnt a superstar right? Just checking

Not a superstar, but clearly better than anyone else on the team at his position.

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I think its safe to say that the Wings centers, as a group, suck.

As a group, relative to the rest of the league, yeah, they're well below average. But some would say Larkin "sucks". Those people are dumb. I also don't think Fabbri or Namestnikov "suck". They're average middle six forwards.

7 hours ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Since you guys lose it over fabbri at 1C as per a proffesional reporter suggests

I don't think it really matters if the person putting Fabbri above Larkin is a fan, a reporter, or a coach, that sort of roster (mis)management is going to get major backlash. Again, it makes zero sense. Larkin is better than Fabbri at every facet of the game.

7 hours ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Ryan

Filppula - Fabbri - Mantha

Glendening - Namestnikov - Zadina

Erne/Nielsem/Helm/Gagner/Svech

Does that look so unreasonable? Does this trigger you? Shifting the top line down one? Looks pretty okay to me. Looks prety balanced. 

No, I don't think that looks unreasonable, but I still wouldn't have Filppula in the top six.

Here's what I'd like to see...

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Ryan
Gagner - Fabbri - Mantha
Svechnikov - Namestnikov - Zadina
Erne / Filppula / Nielsen - Glendening - Helm

Nemeth - Hronek
DeKeyser - Merrill
Staal / Cholowski - Stecher

7 hours ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

You guys realize Larkin isnt a superstar right? Just checking

I don't think anyone sees Larkin as a superstar, but he's far and away our best center.

[krsmith17 7,191]

32 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

Mantha's not a superstar, but clearly and far and away the best winger on this team... so whys he stuck on the 2nd line?

I agree, which is why Larkin and Mantha probably won't be split up. Even if they are though, they will still see a lot of shifts together, and Mantha will still be utilized more than any other winger.

34 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

How come Ryan, a player who hasnt played in an NHL top6 in 4 years, is playing over him?

I'd slot Ryan up the lineup for many reasons... To balance the lines, because he's a much needed right-handed shot in the top six / on the power-play, and because we need to up his trade value before the deadline. What better way to do that than to put him on a line with our best center?

29 minutes ago, SwedeLundin7 said:

So Filppula in the top6 = bad

But Gagner, a player who's been to the AHL the last 2 years in a row, in the top6 = perfectly fine

Got it. 

I'm not saying it's perfectly fine. It's certainly not ideal, but with limited options, that's what I'd roll. I'm sure many would disagree. The same reasons I'd slot Ryan up the lineup, apply to Gagner as well. I also think Gagner is a much better player at this point in his career (5 years younger) than Filppula, despite how he was managed in other organizations.