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krsmith17

2020 Offseason

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On 12/29/2020 at 3:41 AM, krsmith17 said:

< Pessimistic outlook

vs

Optimistic outlook >

Raymond - Larkin - Zadina

Bertuzzi - Veleno - Mantha

Soderblom - Niederbach - Berggren

Smith - Rasmussen - Svechnikov

Namestnikov / Fabbri

Wallinder - Seider

Johansson - Hronek

Cholowski - McIsaac

Stecher

Petruzzelli / Larsson / Bednar

My lineup is obviously more optimistic, but also in my opinion, more realistic. Of course some won't meet their potential, but some will exceed their potential.

This is only including players in the system now. Some will be removed (trade / free agency), and others will be added (draft / trade / free agency). We should have one, maybe two more top 10 picks in the next two drafts. 

Imagine this team with Owen Power and Shane Wright added in the next two drafts... Very unlikely, but that would not only be a Cup contender, but a Cup favorite in a few years...

i forgot Bertuzzi.  He'd be great in the Maltby role.  And you are just putting our current prospects onto a line up sheet.  I said Cup contending team.  I did not say icing the worst team in the league.  Yzerman brought in a bunch of NHL guys to play this year because outside of Seider, Zadina, Rasmussen, and Raymond, our prospects are nothing more than prospects.  I didnt say we had to fill the ? with prospects, but we havent signed any ufas to get excited about in a while.  Moral of the story is that if Im a troll, you're a homer.  I do tend to look at things worst case most of the time now after being very optimistic about Kindl, Smith, and AA.

Edited by Scott R Lucidi

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4 hours ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

i forgot Bertuzzi.  He'd be great in the Maltby role.  And you are just putting our current prospects onto a line up sheet.  I said Cup contending team.  I did not say icing the worst team in the league.  Yzerman brought in a bunch of NHL guys to play this year because outside of Seider, Zadina, Rasmussen, and Raymond, our prospects are nothing more than prospects.  I didnt say we had to fill the ? with prospects, but we havent signed any ufas to get excited about in a while.  Moral of the story is that if Im a troll, you're a homer.  I do tend to look at things worst case most of the time now after being very optimistic about Kindl, Smith, and AA.

There's tempering expectations, and then there's this s***... If having Seider as a number 4 defenseman, and Raymond as a 3rd line winger isn't trolling, you're admitting you actually are that dumb? Hronek as a 3rd pairing defenseman? Zadina as a 3rd line winger? LOL

The fact that you're just naming our last 4 top 10 picks as our only notable prospects, is very telling as to how much you've been paying attention to the development of these prospects. According to you, these players aren't anything more than depth players, but everyone else are "nothing more than prospects"? LOL what does that even mean?

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9 hours ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

i forgot Bertuzzi.  He'd be great in the Maltby role.  And you are just putting our current prospects onto a line up sheet.  I said Cup contending team.  I did not say icing the worst team in the league.  Yzerman brought in a bunch of NHL guys to play this year because outside of Seider, Zadina, Rasmussen, and Raymond, our prospects are nothing more than prospects.  I didnt say we had to fill the ? with prospects, but we havent signed any ufas to get excited about in a while.  Moral of the story is that if Im a troll, you're a homer.  I do tend to look at things worst case most of the time now after being very optimistic about Kindl, Smith, and AA.

A team with Seider and Hronek in their top 4 D, and a prime Larkin, Mantha, Zadina, and Raymond in their top 6 F, would be a Cup contender. Obviously more parts would be needed to fill out the D and top 6. Parts that the Wings currently lack. But to argue that all of these players arent good enough to fill those roles, and must be pushed down the lineup to ice a Cup calibre team is Lucidi-cris.

 

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On 12/29/2020 at 1:05 PM, F.Michael said:

I respectfully disagree...AA hasn't 'fit in' anywhere...And it's not because LA > Edmonton...It's because AA, and his agent screwed the pooch, and more or less are desperate for any deal to stay in the NHL...He'll be outta the league sooner than later.

I wasnt talking in a hockey sense...I was referring to him choosing the Kings for less money instead of staying in  Edmonton because he would rather live in Los Angeles.  I completely agree hes not going to fit in with any team, not unless he changes his attitude and starts putting the work in anyway.  The problem is definitely him

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18 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

A team with Seider and Hronek in their top 4 D, and a prime Larkin, Mantha, Zadina, and Raymond in their top 6 F, would be a Cup contender. Obviously more parts would be needed to fill out the D and top 6. Parts that the Wings currently lack. But to argue that all of these players arent good enough to fill those roles, and must be pushed down the lineup to ice a Cup calibre team is Lucidi-cris.

 

The problem, as much as we all think all these players are going to get us to a cup, none are great franchise level players. We have good to very good amongst those mentioned, none are great. It's too early to tell for Seider and Raymond. 

So we still need 1 Top pair D, 1 #1 C and #1 W, and a #1 G.

Not going to say we can't get close with what we have, it's just unlikely.

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2 hours ago, WRusco said:

The problem, as much as we all think all these players are going to get us to a cup, none are great franchise level players. We have good to very good amongst those mentioned, none are great. It's too early to tell for Seider and Raymond. 

So we still need 1 Top pair D, 1 #1 C and #1 W, and a #1 G.

Not going to say we can't get close with what we have, it's just unlikely.

I don't think anyone here thinks we are going to win a Cup with just what we have on the team and in the pipe now. I think everyone would agree that we have a strong core and solid depth, but still lack that elite talent. It's coming. 

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12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't think anyone here thinks we are going to win a Cup with just what we have on the team and in the pipe now. I think everyone would agree that we have a strong core and solid depth, but still lack that elite talent. It's coming. 

Elite talent would be nice - however with our draft lottery luck we might just have to be content with “well above average talent”.

And that’s fine - St Louis won their Cup - figure we could do the same.

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15 hours ago, WRusco said:

The problem, as much as we all think all these players are going to get us to a cup, none are great franchise level players. We have good to very good amongst those mentioned, none are great. It's too early to tell for Seider and Raymond. 

So we still need 1 Top pair D, 1 #1 C and #1 W, and a #1 G.

Not going to say we can't get close with what we have, it's just unlikely.

I’d like to think that if we can continue to draft, and develop solid talent where our top 6 forwards are averaging 55 to 70 pts, and our top 4 Dmen are solid - we can certainly make the playoffs, and with a bit of luck make it to the Finals.

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4 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Elite talent would be nice - however with our draft lottery luck we might just have to be content with “well above average talent”.

And that’s fine - St Louis won their Cup - figure we could do the same.

You don't need to pick 1st overall, or top 3, or hell, even the 1st round to get elite talent. It obviously helps, but every year there are elite talents picked later then they should have been. Just look at what Vancouver did in back-to-back drafts. Pettersson was drafted 5th overall in 2017, and Hughes was drafted 7th overall in 2018. If Vancouver had a strong core of young players prior to those two drafts, they'd likely be a top team in the league right now. Instead they had a lot of aging players on bad contracts. The Red Wings have the strong, young core, they just need a couple Pettersson / Hughes calibre picks in the next couple drafts.

It's still early, but Yzerman may have two elite talents already picked 6th overall and 4th overall respectively the past two drafts. With another likely top 5 pick in this year's draft, and maybe a little more luck in one of the next two drafts (law of averages). I think we'll get at least one more *elite* talent there. I just hope if it happens, it happens in 2022 with Wright, Savoie and Lambert, rather than 2021 with no real standouts.

I'd be content with finishing 28th this season, dropping 4 spots and picking 7th overall, if it means finishing 20th the following season and jumping 10-12 spots and picking top 3...

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23 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

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10 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Elite talent would be nice - however with our draft lottery luck we might just have to be content with “well above average talent”.

And that’s fine - St Louis won their Cup - figure we could do the same.

Correct. And Vegas went to the Cup Finals without any elite talent. It's possible.

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22 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Elite talent would be nice - however with our draft lottery luck we might just have to be content with “well above average talent”.

And that’s fine - St Louis won their Cup - figure we could do the same.

St Louis had elite talent... 

Edited by xault

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26 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Tarasenko? O’Reilly? Petro? Binnington?

All damn good, but IMHO - not Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Hedman, Josi level.

Crosby and McDavid are generational. Pietroangelo is definitely elite, and I'd  consider O'Reilly and Tarasenko right there as well.

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Crosby and McDavid are generational. Pietroangelo is definitely elite, and I'd  consider O'Reilly and Tarasenko right there as well.

What do you consider elite? For D-men it's top 5 in the NHL. For forwards, it's top 10. I wouldn't put Pietro in my top 5 or Tarasenko or O'Reilly in my top 10.

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17 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

What do you consider elite? For D-men it's top 5 in the NHL. For forwards, it's top 10. I wouldn't put Pietro in my top 5 or Tarasenko or O'Reilly in my top 10.

Pietrangelo is getting up there now, but he absolutely was an elite (top 5) defensemen through his prime years, as was he on that playoff run. You talk about defensemen that are good offensively and defensively, Pietro was elite, and still is close to elite in all areas of the game in my opinion.

When I said O'Reilly and Tarasenko are right there, I mean they're on the cusp. They're very close in my opinion. O'Reilly was near a point per game that season, and through the playoffs, while being an elite shutdown center. I'd say he was an elite center that season for sure. Tarasenko isn't on that same level offensively, and certainly not defensively, but a high, high end winger nonetheless.

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9 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Tarasenko? O’Reilly? Petro? Binnington?

All damn good, but IMHO - not Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Hedman, Josi level.

 

Yea, I would consider Tara, O'Reilly and Petro elite talent. Saying STL won with no elite talent is being bit dishonest in my opinion. 

Binnington was/is/became borderline elite talent.

You can be elite and not be a HOF talent like the next group of guys you mentioned. I'd consider Hedman and Josi to be borderline at this point.

Let's be honest, STL was stacked. Parayko, Steen and Schwartz ( one of the twoway wingers in the game in my opinion ) filled out that team pretty nicely.

If one was to say, you don't need HOF talent to win the cup, I can agree. But can you win without Elite talent? I disagree, during this day and age. Vegas got close as you can get, but still had elite talent in MAF in net. Who will be HOF.

You need elite talent all I am saying.

 

Edited by xault

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9 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Tarasenko? O’Reilly? Petro? Binnington?

All damn good, but IMHO - not Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Hedman, Josi level.

 

I think we may just consider elite talent differently. Which is fine, I won't lie I am a big fan of Tarasenko one of my favorite players to watch... will was one of my favorite players to watch.

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2 hours ago, xault said:

Yea, I would consider Tara, O'Reilly and Petro elite talent. Saying STL won with no elite talent is being bit dishonest in my opinion. 

Binnington was/is/became borderline elite talent.

You can be elite and not be a HOF talent like the next group of guys you mentioned. I'd consider Hedman and Josi to be borderline at this point.

Let's be honest, STL was stacked. Parayko, Steen and Schwartz ( one of the twoway wingers in the game in my opinion ) filled out that team pretty nicely.

If one was to say, you don't need HOF talent to win the cup, I can agree. But can you win without Elite talent? I disagree, during this day and age. Vegas got close as you can get, but still had elite talent in MAF in net. Who will be HOF.

You need elite talent all I am saying.

 

I think we have different opinions on the definition of “elite”.

2 hours ago, xault said:

I think we may just consider elite talent differently. Which is fine, I won't lie I am a big fan of Tarasenko one of my favorite players to watch... will was one of my favorite players to watch.

Indeed 

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