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ChristopherReevesLegs

Athanasiou v Gagner

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Who will score more points next season?  

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First off, both could be moving on, though I think both will stay with their respective teams. AA being RFA and Detroit needing vets (who can actually contribute) that can possibly play 2C.

Athanasiou - career 117 pts in 303 games (avg 0.39 pts per game)

Gagner - career459 pts in 844 games (avg 0.54 pts per game)

Athanasiou has the advantage of his youth and playing on a much better Edmonton team, but then Gagner will only be turning 31 in august (AA turns 26 in the same month) so he's certainly not over-the-hill yet. Imagine if both players have something like a 40 pt season next year. Will Holland neck himself knowing he gave up two 2nd rounder for a lateral move?

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AA will clearly score more, if only because of the opportunity he'll get.  Gagner will be buried in the depth chart and will likely end up on some line with Abby and Ehn or something.  None of them will score and things will be much the same as they are now.  Meanwhile AA is bound to end up on a line with one of McDavid, Draisaitl, or RNH. 

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12 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

AA will clearly score more, if only because of the opportunity he'll get.  Gagner will be buried in the depth chart and will likely end up on some line with Abby and Ehn or something.  None of them will score and things will be much the same as they are now.  Meanwhile AA is bound to end up on a line with one of McDavid, Draisaitl, or RNH. 

You think so? Gagner was pretty much a 2nd/3rd liner for us right away and stayed there. AA got demoted out of Edmonton's top6 pretty quickly.

Barring any additions in FA or callups, I see the roster shaking out like this:

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Fabbri - Filppula/Gagner - Zadina
Helm - Filppula/Glendening - Gagner
Timashov - Ehn - Erne

IDK where Nielsen and Abby fit in anymore, prolly only on the bottom line, and I don't see Gagner playing there with the glut of 4th liners we have.

Again, barring any additions or callups, I think it's really dependent on what Filppula is. If Filppula continues to be offensively stunted I could see Gagner stepping into his 2C role.

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8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You think so? Gagner was pretty much a 2nd/3rd liner for us right away and stayed there. AA got demoted out of Edmonton's top6 pretty quickly.

Barring any additions in FA or callups, I see the roster shaking out like this:

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Fabbri - Filppula/Gagner - Zadina
Helm - Filppula/Glendening - Gagner
Timashov - Ehn - Erne

IDK where Nielsen and Abby fit in anymore, prolly only on the bottom line, and I don't see Gagner playing there with the glut of 4th liners we have.

Again, barring any additions or callups, I think it's really dependent on what Filppula is. If Filppula continues to be offensively stunted I could see Gagner stepping into his 2C role.

Considering Sam Gagner has never played as high as 2C for any team, at any point, in his career I'm doubtful.  I think Glendening will be the 2C on this team before Gagner will.  Though I'm also doubtful Gagner will even be on this team next season.

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4 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Considering Sam Gagner has never played as high as 2C for any team, at any point, in his career I'm doubtful.  I think Glendening will be the 2C on this team before Gagner will.  Though I'm also doubtful Gagner will even be on this team next season.

Right but I don't think - correct me if I'm wrong - Gagner ever played for a team so utterly lacking in the 2C department b4.

Choosing between Glendening v 2020 Filppula for our 2C is pretty freakin' abysmal

Hopefully it's all a moot point and Yzerman intends to continue the 2C carousel that Holland started and he brings someone in. I don't think Veleno or Ras are ready for that level of duty yet.

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6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Right but I don't think - correct me if I'm wrong - Gagner ever played for a team so utterly lacking in the 2C department b4.

Choosing between Glendening v 2020 Filppula for our 2C is pretty freakin' abysmal

Hopefully it's all a moot point and Yzerman intends to continue the 2C carousel that Holland started and he brings someone in. I don't think Veleno or Ras are ready for that level of duty yet.

I mean, he's played for Edmonton, Arizona, Columbus, and Vancouver in recent years.  So not exactly a who's who of quality hockey clubs.  Plenty of opportunity for him to excel.  I just think he's basically a Nothing Player who teams can plug into a bottom six role at little cost.  He's like a modern Scottie Upshall or Curtis Lazar or something.  AA will probably drop 20 goals next year and his coach and teammates will still hate him.  That's sorta his thing.

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19 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I mean, he's played for Edmonton, Arizona, Columbus, and Vancouver in recent years.  So not exactly a who's who of quality hockey clubs.  Plenty of opportunity for him to excel.  I just think he's basically a Nothing Player who teams can plug into a bottom six role at little cost.  He's like a modern Scottie Upshall or Curtis Lazar or something.  AA will probably drop 20 goals next year and his coach and teammates will still hate him.  That's sorta his thing.

Gagner has had a weird career where one season he's in the AHL, then he's dropping 50 pts in the NHL, then he's back in the AHL again. Not sure quite what to think yet, but yeah he seems like a useful utility scorer.

If he's not a possible 2C we should pursue someone else.

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41 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Gagner has had a weird career where one season he's in the AHL, then he's dropping 50 pts in the NHL, then he's back in the AHL again. Not sure quite what to think yet, but yeah he seems like a useful utility scorer.

If he's not a possible 2C we should pursue someone else.

Yeah, he's a weird player.  I don't even necessarily dislike the guy's style of play or anything.  I followed him a bit a few years ago with Columbus when they had a fourth line of him, Scott Hartnell, and Matt Calvert and they scored a TON for the minutes they were getting.  I suppose if we had a roster deep enough to do that I'd be fine with keeping him around too. 

But here's what I think will most likely happen.  One line will be centered by Larkin, one Filppula, one Glendening, and one Ramussen/Veleno. And the Larkin and Glendening lines will eat most of the minutes, and the other two will be heavily sheltered. 

Edited by kipwinger

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No secret I was/am a huge AA fan, but I do think that with our current crop of young players (not including last year's and this year's draft) Gagner fits a better role for us. I certainly hope that he re-signs with us.  I don't think he'll be buried with Abby, because I really do believe that Abby and Nielsen will be the compliance buyouts once it's all said and done. They just are not performing up to their contracts and we have plenty of lessor paid players that can contribute more than they have.  I could see Abby retiring and possibly taking a job as a scout with us, maybe scouting Colleges and USHL or something. Nielsen will try to sign somewhere else, and who knows, maybe he'll get a depth role on a Cup team.

19 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

It's almost as if AA was traded for Ganger straight up eh? lol

Ya, TWO 2nd's and Gagner is looking very nice right now!

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21 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

No secret I was/am a huge AA fan, but I do think that with our current crop of young players (not including last year's and this year's draft) Gagner fits a better role for us. I certainly hope that he re-signs with us.  I don't think he'll be buried with Abby, because I really do believe that Abby and Nielsen will be the compliance buyouts once it's all said and done. They just are not performing up to their contracts and we have plenty of lessor paid players that can contribute more than they have.  I could see Abby retiring and possibly taking a job as a scout with us, maybe scouting Colleges and USHL or something. Nielsen will try to sign somewhere else, and who knows, maybe he'll get a depth role on a Cup team.

Ya, TWO 2nd's and Gagner is looking very nice right now!

I know I and others say this every year, but sure looks like we could afford to lose Nielsen and Abby pretty easily and still ice an "acceptable" lineup.

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Fabbri - Filppula - Zadina
Helm - Glendening - Timashov
Smith - Ehn - Erne
Svechnikov/Rasmussen/Hirose

Missing from the lineup: Abdelkader, Nielsen, Gagner, Perlini, and that's also with no UFA additions. Adding another UFA center and/or a Lafreniere perhaps will make things all the more easy.

Sink or swim time is fast approaching for Svechnikov. He'll be 24 to start the season and I think he needs to start seeing tangible NHL ice time by December/January. Hirose, Ras, and Smith all look like they should be callups.

Abby and Nielsen prolly should fear for their jobs.

 

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1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Abby and Nielsen prolly should fear for their jobs

I think it's a given. Buying out both makes 100% sense. You could argue Dekeyser, but this team lacks NHL defense-men, and he is an NHL quality D-man, bottom paring on most teams, but on our team, he still has value. Same with Helm, also Helm will only have 1 year left, so it would be pointless to buy him out.  Abby and Nielsen have ZERO value on this team, IMO.  Maybe they are good locker-room guys? They both wear "A's" but that is more of a coaches choice...

I agree with the Svech opinion, this may be his make or break year.  Depending on who I get at the draft, or make a deal for, sign as UFA, I think Svech, Ehn/Hirose, etc... and just going to be 13th and 14th forwards here.  Best to try and deal a couple of them away at the draft or something.  We have a good amount of players who have seemed to pass them on the depth list. Ehn, of course spent his time in Detroit, but he is just a bottom 3 player, who can be replaced, especially if there are a lot of buyouts this summer and others become available.

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3 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I think it's a given. Buying out both makes 100% sense. You could argue Dekeyser, but this team lacks NHL defense-men, and he is an NHL quality D-man, bottom paring on most teams, but on our team, he still has value. Same with Helm, also Helm will only have 1 year left, so it would be pointless to buy him out.  Abby and Nielsen have ZERO value on this team, IMO.  Maybe they are good locker-room guys? They both wear "A's" but that is more of a coaches choice...

I agree with the Svech opinion, this may be his make or break year.  Depending on who I get at the draft, or make a deal for, sign as UFA, I think Svech, Ehn/Hirose, etc... and just going to be 13th and 14th forwards here.  Best to try and deal a couple of them away at the draft or something.  We have a good amount of players who have seemed to pass them on the depth list. Ehn, of course spent his time in Detroit, but he is just a bottom 3 player, who can be replaced, especially if there are a lot of buyouts this summer and others become available.

Yes, I have no interest in getting rid of Dekeyser for the time being. Helm was also low-key one of our best players last year, very unappreciated for how well he played relative to the rest of the roster. But I get the sense he'll likely be traded at the TDL :unhappy: will miss that guy.

Nielsen plays solid defense at center, his scoring has just completely dried up. For a team lacking competent centers all-around I think that's the only thing keeping him alive. Very disappointed in Abby. He needs to become a hard-nose grinder and lead this team with old-school physicality and fights or something. But instead he lost weight last summer to slim down and get "faster" except he will never be a fast player no matter how much weight he loses and he just looked even more invisible last year.

The buyouts on Abby and Nielsen just look rough if they are not compliance buyouts. If we were competitive and needed the cap they would make more sense. I think it's prolly just better to scratch them or demote them until we get a compliance buyout to use.

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7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Yes, I have no interest in getting rid of Dekeyser for the time being. Helm was also low-key one of our best players last year, very unappreciated for how well he played relative to the rest of the roster. But I get the sense he'll likely be traded at the TDL :unhappy: will miss that guy.

 Nielsen plays solid defense at center, his scoring has just completely dried up. For a team lacking competent centers all-around I think that's the only thing keeping him alive. Very disappointed in Abby. He needs to become a hard-nose grinder and lead this team with old-school physicality and fights or something. But instead he lost weight last summer to slim down and get "faster" except he will never be a fast player no matter how much weight he loses and he just looked even more invisible last year.

 The buyouts on Abby and Nielsen just look rough if they are not compliance buyouts. If we were competitive and needed the cap they would make more sense. I think it's prolly just better to scratch them or demote them until we get a compliance buyout to use.

Let's all home for some post Corona virus compliance buyouts...  but if we get 1 compliance buyout who goes??  Abby or Nielsen?

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10 minutes ago, mackel said:

Let's all home for some post Corona virus compliance buyouts...  but if we get 1 compliance buyout who goes??  Abby or Nielsen?

Cap hits if bought out today:

Abdelkader (6 years):

  • 2020/21: $1.8
  • 2021/22: $2.3
  • 2022/23: $2.3
  • 2023/24: $1
  • 2024/25: $1
  • 2025/26: $1

Nielsen (4 years):

  • 2020/21: $3.4
  • 2021/22: $4.4
  • 2022/23: $650K
  • 2023/24: $650K

If I had to straight buy one out it would be Nielsen. The buyout is two years shorter, and after you get over the the hump of the first 2 years the cap hit is marginal. So it's really only a two year buyout compared to Abby's 6 years. Also consider that Abby is a fresh 33 and Nielsen is about to turn 36. Nielsen is gonna get a lot worse a lot faster.

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53 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Cap hits if bought out today:

Abdelkader (6 years):

  • 2020/21: $1.8
  • 2021/22: $2.3
  • 2022/23: $2.3
  • 2023/24: $1
  • 2024/25: $1
  • 2025/26: $1

Nielsen (4 years):

  • 2020/21: $3.4
  • 2021/22: $4.4
  • 2022/23: $650K
  • 2023/24: $650K

If I had to straight buy one out it would be Nielsen. The buyout is two years shorter, and after you get over the the hump of the first 2 years the cap hit is marginal. So it's really only a two year buyout compared to Abby's 6 years. Also consider that Abby is a fresh 33 and Nielsen is about to turn 36. Nielsen is gonna get a lot worse a lot faster.

I was thinking of a compliance buyout, like the ones post lockout... this is apparently being discussed because of the impact this will likely have on the cap.  If you have 1 freebie I think you'd have to axe Abby?

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2 minutes ago, mackel said:

I was thinking of a compliance buyout, like the ones post lockout... this is apparently being discussed because of the impact this will likely have on the cap.  If you have 1 freebie I think you'd have to axe Abby?

done 

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1 minute ago, mackel said:

I was thinking of a compliance buyout, like the ones post lockout... this is apparently being discussed because of the impact this will likely have on the cap.  If you have 1 freebie I think you'd have to axe Abby?

Yup. Compliance buyout Abby, regular buyout Nielsen. That would free up almost $6 million next year and two roster spots. Then we just have to stomach that $4.4 cap hit for one year and we're free n clear.

In the reverse we save 7.45 next year, but then we have to deal with Abby's 1-2 mil cap hit for the next FIVE YEARS. f*** that. We're not gonan spend to the cap anyway so screw the extra 1.5 we save by using a compliance on Nielsen.

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I'm just going by the report that teams may receive 2 compliance buyouts.  I really have no interest in having Abby on the books for 6 more years and Nielsen 4. If there are no compliance buyouts, then just keep them and scratch them.  But with all the lost revenue these teams are experiencing, along with the NHL, I cannot see a scenario where there won't be compliance buyouts.

If there is only 1, I guess you'd have to look at which position is more needed.  If we could replace Nielsen at C via UFA easier than replacing Abby? Then Frans is the one, depending on need I suppose. Neither have to be protected at the expansion draft, so that plays no bearing on the decision either.

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1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

No penalty buyout? Nielsen would be my first choice. Abby 2nd.

Larkin, Bert, Mantha

Gagner, Zadina, Fabbri

Flip, Timo, Moose

Ehn, Glenny, Helm

Svech

Still leaves room for our first if he makes the roster.

I'd opt for Abby since his contract is longer and more miserable to use a conventional buyout on.

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4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

From what hell have you come?

I listed centers first.

 

2 hours ago, mackel said:

I'd opt for Abby since his contract is longer and more miserable to use a conventional buyout on.

probably makes sense since Nielsen is at least useable at center

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