Red Wings players / prospects on loan

[krsmith17 7,191]

23 minutes ago, WRusco said:

Some of us here don't have the luxury of watching overseas games. We have to view highlights and posts from reading forums to glean information and form opinions.

I'm not knocking anyone that doesn't watch games. I've only watched 5 of Veleno's 11 games, and even 2 or 3 of those was a lot of flicking back and forth between games. I'm knocking people that claim to watch that clearly haven't. Or maybe they have watched 6 of Veleno's 11 games, and it just so happens that he was s*** in those 6, and really good in the 5 that I watched...

28 minutes ago, WRusco said:

As for Veleno I really don't care which line he is on. I'm more concerned about compete level. 

Veleno definitely has a high compete level.

29 minutes ago, WRusco said:

If he play as a 50-60 pt 2nd line, Great.

If he play as a 40-45 pt 3rd line, good.

If he playes as a 35-40 pt 4ht line, ok.

I still think Veleno will be 50-60 point 2nd line center through his prime years, which I agree would be great.

[kipwinger 8,520]

Since they were drafted, Beggren has played 87 games at all levels. 58 in the SHL against men and 29 against juniors. He has also dealt with several severe injuries. Veleno has played 135 games, 65 in "men's leagues" (SHL and AHL) , and 70 against juniors. He has dealt with no serious injuries. If anything Veleno is MORE developed than Berggren.

Yet he scores less. Berggren's ppg against men is .51. Veleno's is .45 in the SHL and .43 in the AHL.

[krsmith17 7,191]

49 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Since they were drafted, Beggren has played 87 games at all levels. 58 in the SHL against men and 29 against juniors. He has also dealt with several severe injuries. Veleno has played 135 games, 65 in "men's leagues" (SHL and AHL) , and 70 against juniors. He has dealt with no serious injuries. If anything Veleno is MORE developed than Berggren.

Yet he scores less. Berggren's ppg against men is .51. Veleno's is .45 in the SHL and .43 in the AHL.

What is your point? None of this proves anything, except that Berggren has been more productive in the SHL. Do you think that means that Berggren will be a better NHLer? Do you think it means that Veleno tops out as a 3rd line center in the NHL? It doesn't...

More developed? What does this even mean? Every single player develops at different rates, regardless of number of games played or number of injuries.

The same people that doubted Mantha are now doing the same with Veleno. Veleno will be fine, and he will be a big part of this team going forward.

[kipwinger 8,520]

I would have thought it was clear from the totality of my posts. I think Veleno will be a 3rd line, two-way center, who doesn't produce offense consistently because of his limited puck skills. Why do I think that? Because the NHL is a harder league to score in than the SHL or AHL and Veleno didn't produce very well in those leagues either. In fact, he's producing less well than other, less developed, Red Wings prospects including Berggren, Seider, and Raymond.

Edit: You realize that Mantha's .67 ppg in the NHL is EXACTLY the same as his AHL production (.67) right? It's not like he got better. He's the same scorer. So (using the logic from your example) we should expect Veleno, who was an inconsistent third line center in the AHL to pull a Mantha and...be the exact same thing in the NHL?

Cool, glad we agree.

Edited November 22, 2020 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I would have thought it was clear from the totality of my posts. I think Veleno will be a 3rd line, two-way center, who doesn't produce offense consistently because of his limited puck skills. 

You've already proven with your previous posts that you've been basing your opinion purely on stats, and not from watching the games. Now saying that he has "limited puck skills", makes me question whether or not you've ever watched Veleno play... Veleno's skill with the puck on his stick is one of his strengths, not at all a weakness. If you're going to point to a weakness, it would probably be his positioning in the defensive zone. Something that can be fixed.

8 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Why do I think that? Because the NHL is a harder league to score in than the SHL or AHL and Veleno didn't produce very well in those leagues either. In fact, he's producing less well than other, less developed, Red Wings prospects including Berggren, Seider, and Raymond.

So you do think that all players develop at the same rate? Got it.

Veleno's point totals have been a little disappointing. No disagreement there. However, he's still been playing well from what I've seen. Berggren has been unreal, and is massively surpassing everyone's expectations. That doesn't necessarily mean it will translate to the NHL though...

9 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You realize that Mantha's .67 ppg in the NHL is EXACTLY the same as his AHL production (.67) right? It's not like he got better. He's the same scorer. So (using the logic from your example) we should expect Veleno, who was an inconsistent third line center in the AHL to pull a Mantha and...be the exact same thing in the NHL?

I didn't bring Mantha up as a direct player comparison. I brought him up because so many people (including you) gave up on him before he ever had a chance to prove himself. The same thing you're now doing with Veleno. Mantha is a borderline elite, top line NHL winger (when healthy). I don't think Veleno will ever have that sort of impact at the NHL level. They're completely different players.

The player I've compared Veleno to in the past, and I think it's a very good one, is Phillip Danault. They're exactly the same size, left-handed centers, from the same province, drafted in the same range, and play a very similar style of game. Both are very strong two-way centers, that can play in all situations. Their biggest strengths are skating, play-making ability, hockey IQ and work ethic. The biggest difference between the two is that Veleno has been much better at every single level up until this point in Veleno's young career. Veleno was much better in the QMAAA, QMJHL, AHL, and World tournaments. All of which he played at a younger age than Danault.

Danault was always an average point producer, better known for his two-way game. Sound familiar? Now he's one of the better 2nd line centers in the NHL. But yet, according to you, that sort of ceiling just isn't in the cards for Veleno...

9 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Cool, glad we agree.

We definitely don't agree. Surprise, surprise. But if you want to write Veleno off as a 3rd line center this early in his development, go right ahead. I'm going to assume he still has plenty of room to grow, and hope he hits his ultimate ceiling, which is an elite two-way 2C.

[ely s 457]

I think it´s a bit unfair to judge Veleno that early, he played just 11 games on a different kontinent,scoring 5 points so far which is ok to me considering the fact that he was struggling early on last season and after finding his game slowly in the AHL corona hit us and now he has to adjust to a new country, culture, language, team and ice sheet. When I watched him play in sweden (3games) he did not look like someone with limited puck skills. He is playing on the league´s worst team being relied on in all situations, playing every other shift in the games last minutes and to me leaves a good impression. He is making plays, creative, not easy to play against. Give him time, I think he can be reliable, responsible and contributing 2nd line center in a few years time.

[WRusco 43]

4 hours ago, ely s said:

I think it´s a bit unfair to judge Veleno that early, he played just 11 games on a different kontinent,scoring 5 points so far which is ok to me considering the fact that he was struggling early on last season and after finding his game slowly in the AHL corona hit us and now he has to adjust to a new country, culture, language, team and ice sheet. When I watched him play in sweden (3games) he did not look like someone with limited puck skills. He is playing on the league´s worst team being relied on in all situations, playing every other shift in the games last minutes and to me leaves a good impression. He is making plays, creative, not easy to play against. Give him time, I think he can be reliable, responsible and contributing 2nd line center in a few years time.

Awood40 video. He has lot's of Red Wings stuff and does a pretty good job.

I agree with most of what you are saying, I just don't see 2nd line center, yet. He still hase time to improve, but I really like his compete level.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

Hronek's pretty good. 

Zadina makes him look like @ChristopherReevesLegs  scrambling for a new sock account on this one.........

 

 

[ely s 457]

It will be huge for Zadina to have played 20 or so games before training camp. Coming to NA in game shape with confidence can give him a real boost and we might see more of that at the NHL level.

Apart from Veleno all our players on loan perform quite well pointwise, Ras,Hronek, Zadina, Seider, Brome all at 0.9+ ppg, then add Berggren with 20 points in 18 games and Raymond, who is uptrending after a slow start. That´s a lot of players with a headstart. We have to wait and see if it´s an advantage or not.

[Akakabuto 1,749]

Some optimism in these dark trying times:

The Athletic ranks Detroit 6th in Future Power Rankings; Projecting the 23-24 standings

 

One of the biggest questions facing a dramatic rebuild is: How long does it take? If these projections are accurate, the Red Wings will be back among the top teams in three years if the progress continues. GM Steve Yzerman has remained patient in his approach in both stockpiling young assets and clearing cap space. The payoff is coming.

Mirtle on the Red Wings’ improving cap situation: Other than having star players signed at a discount, the best possible situation you can have in a full-scale rebuild like Detroit’s is as much flexibility as possible. Yzerman has just one player (Anthony Mantha) under contract and almost no dead money (only Justin Abdelkader’s $1 million buyout) three years from now. That blank canvas should allow him to dramatically improve the Red Wings roster between now and then.

 

Funny how they gave the Wings such a low score on mgmt/coaching and then continue to not mention Blashill in the summary, Or maybe it's Stephen they don't have confidence in?  

Edited November 30, 2020 by Akakabuto

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

Some optimism in these dark trying times:

The Athletic ranks Detroit 6th in Future Power Rankings; Projecting the 23-24 standings

 

One of the biggest questions facing a dramatic rebuild is: How long does it take? If these projections are accurate, the Red Wings will be back among the top teams in three years if the progress continues. GM Steve Yzerman has remained patient in his approach in both stockpiling young assets and clearing cap space. The payoff is coming.

Mirtle on the Red Wings’ improving cap situation: Other than having star players signed at a discount, the best possible situation you can have in a full-scale rebuild like Detroit’s is as much flexibility as possible. Yzerman has just one player (Anthony Mantha) under contract and almost no dead money (only Justin Abdelkader’s $1 million buyout) three years from now. That blank canvas should allow him to dramatically improve the Red Wings roster between now and then.

 

Funny how they gave the Wings such a low score on mgmt/coaching and then continue to not mention Blashill in the summary, Or maybe it's Stephen they don't have confidence in?  

Considering they made positive remarks about SY, I think it's Blashill bringing that score down.

[ely s 457]

16 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Did u forget Emil Viro? 6 pts in 16 games in the finnish mens liiga right now as an 18 year old. Absolutely dominating the puck as well. Cant understand why hes being ignored constantly. I project him beneath only Seider. 

No, I didn´t forget him, but I don´t see him getting a roster spot, whereas the others will be on the roster at season start or after the TDL. I haven´t seen Eemil Viro play, but heard goog things about him and just seen that it´s his second pro season, but still at 6´0" and 170-175 pounds he needs time. If he keeps going strong he might get a look, who knows, but I think his time will come in 2-3 years.

[kipwinger 8,520]

So reports from the twitterverse, including Bultman, indicate that Veleno has been playing on the wing the last few games in the SHL. Bummer.

[kipwinger 8,520]

3 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

On a better note, Seider is the best SHL Dman in the league by far at 19 years old...

Not only has he far exceeded every defensive expectation, but now he is s***ting on his last critique as well: offense. 7 pts in 8 GP. I love that he likes to shoot for tip ins... reminds of a certain Swedish Dman. His decision making is out of control for a 19 year old and he is winning every 1v1 battle. So far I have counted 1 mistake he has made in the SHL. ONE. Analytically he is the best Dman in the SHL right now. Seider is going to be a monster in the NHL very soon. I can see him and Viro running the DRWs top pair one day.

Seider is a monster. I've already made the Seth Jones comparison, but another guy that comes to mind is Miro Heiskanen. Here's a dude who doesn't get the love that the elite scoring d-men get, but he's a minute muncher, has good enough offense to produce against top opposition, and is a possession beast. Any notion that Seider's offense is lacking should have been dispelled last season when produced in the AHL as an 18 year old, and is producing now in the SHL as a 19 year old. His offense has been better, in both the AHL and SHL, than Veleno's, so that's something right?

 

[kipwinger 8,520]

6 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

I agree with the comparison in total. Much like Heiskanen. He controls the game from the D and neutral zone first, then contributes on offense. I would venture to say he and Heiskanen will be competing for the most "complete" Dmen in the league soon. I'm hesitant to say Norris because they'll give that award to some high scoring hack job like Burns instead...

Veleno is revealing why he fell something like 20+ spots in the first round of the draft IMO. His raw game is good but I just don't see a top end talent night in and night out when he plays. Honestly - if we wern't short on potential centers - he is the type of prospect you move to get an upgrade on the roster.

Agreed on Seider.

I'd move Joey V to the Wing and let him be the digger for Zadina the way that Bertuzzi is the digger for Mantha. I think he'd compliment skill pretty well in that role, but I don't see a guy who can consistently make skilled offensive plays. He'll contribute plenty as "the other guy" but it's pretty clear to me that he's not an offensive driver after failing to score much in his draft year, failing to score much in his AHL season to the point where he got demoted down the lineup, and now failing to score much in the SHL to the point where he had to get moved to the wing.

Or just trade him, as you've indicated, since we're probably good on the wing after drafting about 400 of them with high picks the last handful of years (Mantha, Bertuzzi, Svech, Zadina, Berggren, Mastrosimone, and Raymond).

Edited December 4, 2020 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,520]

10 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

The issue is we always end up circling back to the same problem. The same problem we've had since 2012. No legitimate 2C.

I see our future options as follows: Veleno/Rasmussen/Fabbri/Namestnikov/Niederbach/Berrgren?

Fabbri and Namestnikov can fill the role for the time being. My gut is telling me Niederbach is the future man there. Berrgren is looking awesome but I believe he's playing wing like Veleno. Wild card is Ras. It would be very nice to have 6'6 heavy center behind Larkin.

Veleno seems redundant at this point. A Filppula 2.0 in the making. Good enough to get you excited. Bad enough to always disappoint. Niederbach may overtake him quickly in this regard.

I'd like to see Yzerman target Alex Barre Boulet when he inevitably takes Johnson or Palat from Tampa to help them out with their cap issues. He's a top six center in the making, absolutely torching the AHL, and blocked in Tampa's lineup by Point and Cirelli. Really good offensive center prospect who could probably be had.

[kipwinger 8,520]

2 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Interesting player. Another Yzerman undrafted midget find I see.... He torched the QMJHL and AHL. Wouldn't hate it...

I'm confused as to what Tampa's move will be. Still have Cernak and Cirelli to sign with no cap room. It seems obvious they have to move Brayden Point. If the deal was Veleno and something for Point I would make it happen...

I think they move two of Johnson, Killorn, Palat, or Gourde. I don't see them moving Point, though if they did I'd obviously be interested.

[kipwinger 8,520]

23 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Sure. Just all four of those players are sitting on NTC's *Holland chuckles*

Yeah, I typically don't think those are that big of a deal. Players that realize they aren't wanted usually find teams they're willing to go play for. I think Tampa pretty easily moves two of them, but Brisbois is going to REALLY have to sweeten the deals.

Edit: I'd take their two s***tiest contracts, Johnson and Gourde, but I'd want Barre Boulet and their 2022 1st.

Edited December 4, 2020 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

So reports from the twitterverse, including Bultman, indicate that Veleno has been playing on the wing the last few games in the SHL. Bummer.

Yeah, Veleno was promoted to the top line wing. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Ideally he gets back to playing center again soon, but he's getting big minutes in all situations, so I'm okay with it. It's great for his development, regardless whether or not he's out there taking faceoffs.

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I'd move Joey V to the Wing and let him be the digger for Zadina the way that Bertuzzi is the digger for Mantha. I think he'd compliment skill pretty well in that role, but I don't see a guy who can consistently make skilled offensive plays. He'll contribute plenty as "the other guy" but it's pretty clear to me that he's not an offensive driver after failing to score much in his draft year, failing to score much in his AHL season to the point where he got demoted down the lineup, and now failing to score much in the SHL to the point where he had to get moved to the wing.

Or just trade him, as you've indicated, since we're probably good on the wing after drafting about 400 of them with high picks the last handful of years (Mantha, Bertuzzi, Svech, Zadina, Berggren, Mastrosimone, and Raymond).

Moving Veleno to wing permanently is not going to happen. He's a center, and he'll develop into a very good one. He's not a winger despite playing a few games at the position in the SHL.

Here we go again with the iNaBiLiTy tO mAkE sKiLlEd oFfEnSiVe pLaYs... Try watching the games rather than just glancing at box scores. Veleno does not in any way lack skill.

He's also not getting traded, because Yzerman isn't a complete moron. Veleno is our top center prospect. A team that is severely lacking center depth is not trading that.

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I'd like to see Yzerman target Alex Barre Boulet when he inevitably takes Johnson or Palat from Tampa to help them out with their cap issues. He's a top six center in the making, absolutely torching the AHL, and blocked in Tampa's lineup by Point and Cirelli. Really good offensive center prospect who could probably be had.

LOL Alex Barre Boulet could be a quality NHL 2C but Joe Veleno can't? "Really good offensive center prospect", but Veleno is not? despite JV outproducing ABB at the same age or younger at every level? 

They really do let any idiot with a keyboard comment here don't they?...

[kipwinger 8,520]

20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, Veleno was promoted to the top line wing. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Ideally he gets back to playing center again soon, but he's getting big minutes in all situations, so I'm okay with it. It's great for his development, regardless whether or not he's out there taking faceoffs.

Moving Veleno to wing permanently is not going to happen. He's a center, and he'll develop into a very good one. He's not a winger despite playing a few games at the position in the SHL.

Here we go again with the iNaBiLiTy tO mAkE sKiLlEd oFfEnSiVe pLaYs... Try watching the games rather than just glancing at box scores. Veleno does not in any way lack skill.

He's also not getting traded, because Yzerman isn't a complete moron. Veleno is our top center prospect. A team that is severely lacking center depth is not trading that.

LOL Alex Barre Boulet could be a quality NHL 2C but Joe Veleno can't? "Really good offensive center prospect", but Veleno is not? despite JV outproducing ABB at the same age or younger at every level? 

They really do let any idiot with a keyboard comment here don't they?...

ABB led the AHL in goals last season from the center position. When Joe Veleno leads ANY league, in ANY major major statistical category, I’ll consider revising my assertion that ABB has the higher offensive upside. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

ABB led the AHL in goals last season from the center position. When Joe Veleno leads ANY league, in ANY major major statistical category, I’ll consider revising my assertion that ABB has the higher offensive upside. 

Or maybe you should consider revisiting it now, since like I said, Veleno has been more productive at every level at the same age or younger than Barre Boulet. Veleno is twice the calibre prospect now than Barre Boulet was at the same age, and there's no reason to believe that JV can't have a similar upward trajectory over the next couple seasons.

I'd be all for targeting ABB in a cap dump trade, but he wouldn't be the main piece I'd be looking at. Not many undersized centers go undrafted and become stud NHLers...

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Is this completely retarded?

Almost as retarded as writing off a 20 year old prospect, that has played up his age level, and still played well his entire career thus far.

Almost as retarded as acknowledging that our biggest weakness is center, our biggest strength is wing, and then suggesting that we should convert one of our only legitimate center prospects to wing...

Almost that retarded...

[kipwinger 8,520]

Again, ABB lead the AHL in goals as a top center. He absolutely dominated a top men’s league. The men’s league that most closely resembles the NHL in style and speed and physicality. He would be an extremely good get.

Veleno has never performed that well offensively at any level, including junior levels. If ABB joined the Wings he would immediately leapfrog Rasmussen and Veleno and be our top center prospect by about a thousand miles. Veleno can’t even stick at center in the SHL, ABB dominated the AHL at that position. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Again, ABB lead the AHL in goals as a top center. He absolutely dominated a top men’s league. The men’s league that most closely resembles the NHL in style and speed and physicality. He would be an extremely good get.

Veleno has never performed that well offensively at any level, including junior levels. If ABB joined the Wings he would immediately leapfrog Rasmussen and Veleno and be our top center prospect by about a thousand miles. Veleno can’t even stick at center in the SHL, ABB dominated the AHL at that position. 

Barre Boulet is 3 years older than Veleno, and that much further along in his development. That doesn't mean he was a better player at the same age (he wasn't), or that he will be a better player in the future (doubtful he will).

I don't think you realize that Veleno is still just 20 years old. At the same age, Barre Boulet was still playing junior hockey... You don't think Veleno would have dominated if he had not turned pro last season, and instead gone back for his final season of junior eligibility? He would have led the league in every offensive statistical category. Hell, he was damn near close the season prior, despite being younger and / or playing less games than the players ahead of him.

Veleno won't lead the AHL in scoring as a 22 year old, because he will have already graduated to the NHL at that point.

Veleno gets promoted to top line wing in one of the best hockey leagues in the world, as a 20 year old, and you surmise that to him not being able to stick at center... and suggest that he should be converted to the wing permanently... LOL what kind of brain dead logic is that?

[ely s 457]

He switched with the first line LW on a team desperately looking for offense. Does that mean he is not good enough at center or is it just a try to spark the offense, which in Veleno´s case worked.

Veleno as a LW 3g 2g 1a 3p