Red Wings players / prospects on loan

[kipwinger 8,521]

1 hour ago, ely s said:

He switched with the first line LW on a team desperately looking for offense. Does that mean he is not good enough at center or is it just a try to spark the offense, which in Veleno´s case worked.

Veleno as a LW 3g 2g 1a 3p

Agree. Veleno is more productive on the wing than at center. A team starved for offense thought (correctly) he'd produce more on the wing than he was at center. Doesn't mean he's not "good enough" at center, but it definitely means he's not productive enough. Otherwise they would have left him where he was.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Barre Boulet is 3 years older than Veleno, and that much further along in his development. That doesn't mean he was a better player at the same age (he wasn't), or that he will be a better player in the future (doubtful he will).

I don't think you realize that Veleno is still just 20 years old. At the same age, Barre Boulet was still playing junior hockey... You don't think Veleno would have dominated if he had not turned pro last season, and instead gone back for his final season of junior eligibility? He would have led the league in every offensive statistical category. Hell, he was damn near close the season prior, despite being younger and / or playing less games than the players ahead of him.

Veleno won't lead the AHL in scoring as a 22 year old, because he will have already graduated to the NHL at that point.

Veleno gets promoted to top line wing in one of the best hockey leagues in the world, as a 20 year old, and you surmise that to him not being able to stick at center... and suggest that he should be converted to the wing permanently... LOL what kind of brain dead logic is that?

Regardless of whether he's 20 or 25, I don't believe Joe Veleno will ever lead ANY league in goals because...wait for it...he's not very productive offensively.

[kipwinger 8,521]

17 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Or maybe you should consider revisiting it now, since like I said, Veleno has been more productive at every level at the same age or younger than Barre Boulet. Veleno is twice the calibre prospect now than Barre Boulet was at the same age, and there's no reason to believe that JV can't have a similar upward trajectory over the next couple seasons.

I'd be all for targeting ABB in a cap dump trade, but he wouldn't be the main piece I'd be looking at. Not many undersized centers go undrafted and become stud NHLers...

This is false. Veleno scored 79 points in 64 games in his draft year. ABB scored 89 points in 65 games in what would have been his draft year had he been drafted. At the same age ABB scored more. In their draft plus one years Veleno scored more. The only time both players were in a similar league at the same age was their draft year and their draft plus one years in the QMJHL, and in those two years ABB produced more once and Veleno produced more once.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

This is false. Veleno scored 79 points in 64 games in his draft year. ABB scored 89 points in 65 games in what would have been his draft year had he been drafted. At the same age ABB scored more. In their draft plus one years Veleno scored more. The only time both players were in a similar league at the same age was their draft year and their draft plus one years in the QMJHL, and in those two years ABB produced more once and Veleno produced more once.

Nope. This is false. Barre Boulet was draft eligible in 2015. He scored 51 points in 68 games in what would have been his draft year. Which is probably why he went undrafted, that year, and the next year, and the next year...

Barre Boulet scored 89 points in 65 games in what would have been his draft plus one season. Veleno scored 104 points in 59 games in his draft plus one season.

At the same age, Veleno has been a much better offensive producer than Barre Boulet at every level. You can't really compare them based on Veleno's first season in the AHL, when Barre Boulet spent that entire season in juniors...

B...b...but Barre Boulet was a stud as a 22 year old in the AHL. Veleno won't play a single game in the AHL as a 22 year old. He will already be graduated to the NHL.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

IDK. Larkin played wing his first season in a "men's" league, and he turned all right as a center. I don't think Veleno is going to be a big point producer, but a solid 2 way center capable of holding down a 2C spot would be more than good enough for me.

[kipwinger 8,521]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

IDK. Larkin played wing his first season in a "men's" league, and he turned all right as a center. I don't think Veleno is going to be a big point producer, but a solid 2 way center capable of holding down a 2C spot would be more than good enough for me.

I'd be happy if Veleno turned into a 2C as well. That's what's being debated here. I don't think he'll be capable of "holding down a 2C spot" because he doesn't produce enough offensively. How many 2C in the league can't score?

I think, at best, you're looking at a Jordan Staal type, mid-40 point 3C with good defense. And that's IF he sticks at center. Move him to the wing and he might be able to play in the top six as "the other guy" to a Zadina or Mantha or Raymond because he's very physically talented. He just doesn't have the offensive skill. Which is why he's getting outproduced by Moritz Seider for the 2nd straight year.

I'm just not sure how many times the guy has to have mediocre point production at lower levels before everyone realizes he's not going to be more than a mid-level guy in the NHL.

Edit: Also, in his draft plus 2 year (as an NHL rookie) Dylan Larkin did indeed play wing and scored 23 goals and 40 some points. For comparison's sake, in Veleno's draft plus 2 year he was getting overwhelmed by AHL competition and scoring roughly as often has 4th liner Chase Pearson, who was playing about 4 fewer minutes per night.

Edited December 4, 2020 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,521]

55 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Nope. This is false. Barre Boulet was draft eligible in 2015. He scored 51 points in 68 games in what would have been his draft year. Which is probably why he went undrafted, that year, and the next year, and the next year...

Barre Boulet scored 89 points in 65 games in what would have been his draft plus one season. Veleno scored 104 points in 59 games in his draft plus one season.

At the same age, Veleno has been a much better offensive producer than Barre Boulet at every level. You can't really compare them based on Veleno's first season in the AHL, when Barre Boulet spent that entire season in juniors...

B...b...but Barre Boulet was a stud as a 22 year old in the AHL. Veleno won't play a single game in the AHL as a 22 year old. He will already be graduated to the NHL.

You're right. He was draft eligible in 2015. I got that wrong. Nevertheless, his subsequent development (and production) has demonstrated he's a top offensive prospect. He was the 2019 AHL rookie of the year (as voted by coaches), and the 2020 AHL goal scoring leader. So it's not like I'm the only one who thinks he's a top prospect.

I don't really understand what "graduating to the NHL" has to do with anything. Your boy Tomas Jurco played fewer games in the AHL than Gustav Nyquist or Tomas Tatar before getting called up, but he wasn't a better player. Something tells me Veleno might have a tough time cracking Tampa's lineup as well.

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You're right. He was draft eligible in 2015. I got that wrong. Nevertheless, his subsequent development (and production) has demonstrated he's a top offensive prospect. He was the 2019 AHL rookie of the year (as voted by coaches), and the 2020 AHL goal scoring leader. So it's not like I'm the only one who thinks he's a top prospect.

I don't really understand what "graduating to the NHL" has to do with anything. Your boy Tomas Jurco played fewer games in the AHL than Gustav Nyquist or Tomas Tatar before getting called up, but he wasn't a better player. Something tells me Veleno might have a tough time cracking Tampa's lineup as well.

You're confusing this entire argument (surprise, surprise)... My point was never that Barre Boulet isn't a top prospect. My point is that Veleno is a top prospect. You're a complete dumbass for thinking otherwise, and for giving up on him at the age of 20. Luckily for us, Yzerman isn't a complete dumbass and he isn't going to trade our top center prospect, and he certainly isn't going to try to convert our top center prospect to wing...

LOL I can always tell when I have you or the other jackass backed into a corner, when you start bringing up Jurco or Smith... "Durr, I have nothing else to say, but remember that time you thought Jurco was going to be good?"...

One last time, Veleno has been better at a younger age than Barre Boulet at every level. You can assume Veleno is what he is at 20 years old. I'm going to assume he still has a lot of development to go, and improvements to make.

[kipwinger 8,521]

25 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You're confusing this entire argument (surprise, surprise)... My point was never that Barre Boulet isn't a top prospect. My point is that Veleno is a top prospect. You're a complete dumbass for thinking otherwise, and for giving up on him at the age of 20. Luckily for us, Yzerman isn't a complete dumbass and he isn't going to trade our top center prospect, and he certainly isn't going to try to convert our top center prospect to wing...

LOL I can always tell when I have you or the other jackass backed into a corner, when you start bringing up Jurco or Smith... "Durr, I have nothing else to say, but remember that time you thought Jurco was going to be good?"...

One last time, Veleno has been better at a younger age than Barre Boulet at every level. You can assume Veleno is what he is at 20 years old. I'm going to assume he still has a lot of development to go, and improvements to make.

I never "gave up on him". I literally JUST compared him to Jordan Staal. You seem to think being realistic about a player's upside is somehow pejorative.

Also I wasn't trying to "gotcha" with Jurco, I was pointing out that being in the NHL sooner doesn't make one "better" and he's an excellent example. Another example might be Marco Rossi, who will almost certainly be in the NHL sooner than Lucas Raymond, and you've made it very clear you think Raymond is better right?

Edit: Also, I agree that Veleno will probably improve. But so will every other 20 year old player. It's not like he's the only one developing. Sure he'll get better, and so will everyone else, and he'll still be middle of the lineup as a center (or higher as a winger).

Edited December 5, 2020 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

58 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I never "gave up on him". I literally JUST compared him to Jordan Staal. You seem to think being realistic about a player's upside is somehow pejorative.

Also I wasn't trying to "gotcha" with Jurco, I was pointing out that being in the NHL sooner doesn't make one "better" and he's an excellent example. Another example might be Marco Rossi, who will almost certainly be in the NHL sooner than Lucas Raymond, and you've made it very clear you think Raymond is better right?

Edit: Also, I agree that Veleno will probably improve. But so will every other 20 year old player. It's not like he's the only one developing. Sure he'll get better, and so will everyone else, and he'll still be middle of the lineup as a center (or higher as a winger).

You never said the words, but it was quite clear when you advocated trading him and switching him to wing. Also, Jordan Staal being his best case scenario is a f***ing joke. Veleno has all the tools and potential to develop into a Phillip Danault, 50ish point, all situations, two-way 2C.

Of course you weren't trying to "gotcha" with Jurco. How could you when you once said that Athanasiou would be better than Larkin...

I'm not saying that Veleno will be better than Barre Boulet because he will be in the NHL sooner. I'm saying that Veleno will likely be better than Barre Boulet because (you're really going to make me say it again) he's been better at a younger age at each point in their development thus far. Why would you assume that will all of a sudden change?

Of course all players will improve, including Barre Boulet. The difference is, Veleno has more room to grow, being three years younger.

If Veleno has a Mantha, or a Zadina, or a Raymond, or another elite winger on his line in a few years, he could definitely be more than capable of "holding down the 2C spot". He has all the tools to thrive in that sort of role.

[kipwinger 8,521]

38 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You never said the words, but it was quite clear when you advocated trading him and switching him to wing. Also, Jordan Staal being his best case scenario is a f***ing joke. Veleno has all the tools and potential to develop into a Phillip Danault, 50ish point, all situations, two-way 2C.

Of course you weren't trying to "gotcha" with Jurco. How could you when you once said that Athanasiou would be better than Larkin...

I'm not saying that Veleno will be better than Barre Boulet because he will be in the NHL sooner. I'm saying that Veleno will likely be better than Barre Boulet because (you're really going to make me say it again) he's been better at a younger age at each point in their development thus far. Why would you assume that will all of a sudden change?

Of course all players will improve, including Barre Boulet. The difference is, Veleno has more room to grow, being three years younger.

If Veleno has a Mantha, or a Zadina, or a Raymond, or another elite winger on his line in a few years, he could definitely be more than capable of "holding down the 2C spot". He has all the tools to thrive in that sort of role.

Veleno isn’t even close to the best player in his own age group. Many players his age, and younger, already outperform him. They’ve all got just as many years to develop as he does.  He’s already being out produced by guys drafted a year or two after him. Is he suddenly going to get WAY better and they’re all going to stand still? Doubtful. Unless he’s some outlier, which he’s given no indication he is, he’s going to be a winger or a 3C because he doesn’t score enough. And it’s not like I’m just pulling this out of nowhere. Almost every single scouting report on Veleno questioned his ability to produce offensively at the next level. It’s hardly controversial, except to you apparently.

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Veleno isn’t even close to the best player in his own age group. Many players his age, and younger, already outperform him. They’ve all got just as many years to develop as he does.  He’s already being out produced by guys drafted a year or two after him. Is he suddenly going to get WAY better and they’re all going to stand still? Doubtful. Unless he’s some outlier, which he’s given no indication he is, he’s going to be a winger or a 3C because he doesn’t score enough. And it’s not like I’m just pulling this out of nowhere. Almost every single scouting report on Veleno questioned his ability to produce offensively at the next level. It’s hardly controversial, except to you apparently.

It totally makes sense why you've finally gotten off the comparison to Barre Boulet after I debunked your theory... But who exactly are you comparing him to now? And why does it matter that he's not the best player in his age group? If he were the best in his age group, the debate wouldn't be whether or not he's going to be a 2C, but rather, if he's going to be a 1C...

"Unless he's some outlier"... Well he was granted exceptional status in junior. He dominated his final year, and advanced to pro hockey before most players his age. He's also ahead of most players in his draft class (outside of the top 10). 

"Doesn't score enough"... 42 goals, 104 points in 59 games in the Q in his draft plus one season. Top 3 in just about every offensive category, despite being a year or two younger than most players in that range (aside from Lafreniere).

Most of those scouting reports were written before the draft. Since then, a lot of the pundits have come around on Veleno's offensive ability. Anyone that is paying attention to Veleno the past few seasons can see the tools are there. There is no "lack of offensive ability"... 

[ely s 457]

two nice reads

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/horcoff-on-player-development-during-pandemic/c-319758672

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/seider-adjusting-to-life-in-swedish-hockey-league/c-319738308

not everyone is thinking Veleno will only be a third line center at best...

 

[WRusco 43]

7 minutes ago, ely s said:

two nice reads

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/horcoff-on-player-development-during-pandemic/c-319758672

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/seider-adjusting-to-life-in-swedish-hockey-league/c-319738308

not everyone is thinking Veleno will only be a third line center at best...

 

Good reads. 2nd line or 3rd, I really don't care. As long as he plays hard and smart I'm ok with that.

Personally, I think he will be a very good 3rd line center.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

I think 3C is more his floor. 2C would be his ceiling.

He'll be to 2C what Larkin is as a 1C. Good enough to play the position, but wish you had someone better so you could move them down one line.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I think 3C is more his floor. 2C would be his ceiling.

Yeah, pretty much. I think if Veleno completely flops, he's still a capable 3C. If everything goes right (there's no reason to think it won't), he's a high end 2C.

12 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

He'll be to 2C what Larkin is as a 1C. Good enough to play the position, but wish you had someone better so you could move them down one line.

This may be the likely outcome, but I still wouldn't rule out the possibility that in 3-5 years Veleno is regarded as one of the better second line centers in the league. But then again, unlike most, I still believe Larkin has the capability to be a top 10-15 center in the league.

Larkin and Veleno are very similar style centers, but what makes me believe they will both reach / exceed their ceiling / expectations, is their work ethic and drive to be the best.

[ely s 457]

Seider had a fight yesterday, any video available?

[ely s 457]

found some, seemed to be short, starts at 40 seconds

https://www.shl.se/play/video/107261?provider=staylive&autoplay=1

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 minutes ago, ely s said:

Seider had a fight yesterday, any video available?

Wasn't much of a fight, just Seider manhandling an opposing player...

 

[AtlantaHotWings 983]

17 minutes ago, ely s said:

found some, seemed to be short, starts at 40 seconds

https://www.shl.se/play/video/107261?provider=staylive&autoplay=1

Love the announcers!!! 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Wasn't much of a fight, just Seider manhandling an opposing player...

 

Love the ripped off Oilers logo and the advert for feminine napkins.

[TimeBinder 28]

why are you hijacking this thread with relevant info - rather than debating the worth of a prospects ability of being a 3c ugh?!

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, TimeBinder said:

why are you hijacking this thread with relevant info - rather than debating the worth of a prospects ability of being a 3c ugh?!

Who's hijacking the thread? And why do we want to continue the Veleno/Center debate?

[Akakabuto 1,749]

Timashov to Isles. 

For future considerations. 

[kipwinger 8,521]

17 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

Timashov to Isles. 

For future considerations. 

Ashes to ashes.

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

There's only about a 35-40% that a 30th overall pick plays more than 99 games at the NHL level. And obviously that chance continues to drop the more games you expect Veleno to play in the NHL.

Then there's an even less chance that that player at 30th overall becomes an "impact player".

If Veleno were to develop into a Jordan Staal 900+ game, 50 pt impact player, that would be a tremendous success for him and this team.

This thread is hilarious

LOL pretty convenient that I'm reading this just after responding in the other thread... So this is the kind of odds you want for taking on a cap dump...