Red Wings players / prospects on loan

[krsmith17 7,191]

25 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Scoring 45 points a season (on average) is not "solid" for a top six center on a good team. You realize that almost no teams win the Stanley Cup with a 2C who only score about 45 pts. The worst 2C in recent memory is Schenn and his .65 ppg is significantly better than Danault's .52 ppg. So if Veleno ends up like Danault, as you've consistently projected, he will play on the 3rd line for any playoff caliber team.

Fair. So maybe we aren't a Stanley Cup winning caliber team if Veleno doesn't hit his ceiling, and / or we don't draft / sign a better 2nd line center. That doesn't change the fact that he would be considered a solid 2C on an average NHL team, if he's a Danault caliber center.

22 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Why does the contract matter? It's not going to negatively impact the team in any conceivable way. Are you that concerned about Chris Ilitch's bank account? Bad contracts only matter if they stop you from re-signing good players or landing free agents. That's why Tampa is in this mess, for instance. Detroit will have MORE than enough money to do any and everything they want to do in free agency or to re-sign players.

Bad contracts matter. Johnson's contract is bad now. It could be Ann albatross in a few years. Why risk that, when you can get the same (or better) return from a different team, without the risk?

[marcaractac 3,962]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I agree with all of this. Players are "elite" or not. And those "elite" players who center the second line are "elite 2C". That's exactly what I've been saying for two days. NONE of the players you mentioned are "elite". None of the players KRsmith mentioned are "elite". And certainly we wouldn't determine a player's position based on where he MIGHT play on a different team. If Luke Glendenging comes out this year and plays on the Wing's 2nd line all year, then he's a (bad) 2C until he isn't. Doesn't matter that he wouldn't do that on another team.

Also of note, Malkin's career TOI is that close to Crosby's because Crosby missed significant portions of his career with injuries. During those periods Malkin moved up the depth chart, became the 1C and got the associated minutes. The law of averages being what it is, their TOI seems seems pretty close. Crosby has averaged more TOI in 9 of the last 10 seasons. The only season he didn't was an injury plagued year in which he only suited up or 22 games.

As far as players I've mentioned before goes, all I really mean is that they are really good, ideal 2C players. If there were such thing as an elite 2C, it would be them. But there is no such thing as an elite 2C, because as we agreed, being elite has nothing to do with lineup placement. 

When Malkin is looked back upon down the road, nobody is gonna mention the fact he played on the "second line". He'll simply be known as an elite NHL center. Likewise with Tavares and Draisaitl. 

In the end, what bums me the f*** out is that the Wings currently have ZERO elite players. While I expect that to change when guys like Seider and Raymond become impact NHLers, right now we have none. Let's hope Seider can become Konstantinov but 5" taller. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by marcaractac

[kipwinger 8,520]

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

As far as players I've mentioned before goes, all I really mean is that they are really good, ideal 2C players. If there were such thing as an elite 2C, it would be them. But there is no such thing as an elite 2C, because as we agreed, being elite has nothing to do with lineup placement. 

When Malkin is looked back upon down the road, nobody is gonna mention the fact he played on the "second line". He'll simply be known as an elite NHL center. Likewise with Tavares and Draisaitl. 

In the end, what bums me the f*** out is that the Wings currently have ZERO elite players. While I expect that to change when guys like Seider and Raymond become impact NHLers, right now we have none. Let's hope Seider can become Konstantinov but 5" taller. 

I don't disagree with you, but you're coming late to the debate. The only reason we're even discussing "elite" 2C players is because KRsmith said Veleno has elite upside. Which is absurd. If he'd said that Veleno would be an "ideal" 2C (he's compared him to Danault) I would still disagree because Danault isn't even a very good 2C when compared to the guys you mentioned, but at least it wouldn't be as patently absurd as saying Veleno has "elite" upside.

The fact of that matter is that we don't have many players with higher end upside, and almost none at center and that's a huge problem. If Joe Veleno is a Danault-like player in a few years, and is playing on our 2nd line, we're f*cked because good teams don't have 45 pt 2nd line centers. That would be a disaster, which is why I've said many times that a player like that is best slotted on a 3rd line like Jordan Staal. Something KRsmtih disagreed with until he realized that Staal is actually better than Danault lol.

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't disagree with you, but you're coming late to the debate. The only reason we're even discussing "elite" 2C players is because KRsmith said Veleno has elite upside. Which is absurd. If he'd said that Veleno would be an "ideal" 2C (he's compared him to Danault) I would still disagree because Danault isn't even a very good 2C when compared to the guys you mentioned, but at least it wouldn't be as patently absurd as saying Veleno has "elite" upside.

The fact of that matter is that we don't have many players with higher end upside, and almost none at center and that's a huge problem. If Joe Veleno is a Danault-like player in a few years, and is playing on our 2nd line, we're f*cked because good teams don't have 45 pt 2nd line centers. That would be a disaster, which is why I've said many times that a player like that is best slotted on a 3rd line like Jordan Staal. Something KRsmtih disagreed with until he realized that Staal is actually better than Danault lol.

It makes perfect sense why you responded to that post explaining my rationale, with just "So you think Danault is "one of the best 2C in the league"?"... 

You're completely misrepresenting what I said, like you always do, and you know it. You know damn well I wasn't saying that Veleno is or will be an "elite" NHLer, but he could be an "elite" 2C, by my definition, 32-35 ranked center in the league.

But yeah, this guy...

... has no shot at becoming a legitimate 2nd line NHL center. We know that because other guys are outproducing him in the SHL. All players develop at the same rate, and at the age of 20 we know what players are at that point in their career...

[kipwinger 8,520]

35 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

It makes perfect sense why you responded to that post explaining my rationale, with just "So you think Danault is "one of the best 2C in the league"?"... 

You're completely misrepresenting what I said, like you always do, and you know it. You know damn well I wasn't saying that Veleno is or will be an "elite" NHLer, but he could be an "elite" 2C, by my definition, 32-35 ranked center in the league.

But yeah, this guy...

... has no shot at becoming a legitimate 2nd line NHL center. We know that because other guys are outproducing him in the SHL. All players develop at the same rate, and at the age of 20 we know what players are at that point in their career...

Joe Veleno will never be "elite" in the NHL. Regardless of how many times you say so. And him being the 6th most productive player on a s***ty SHL team is hardly evidence that he will. If you think Veleno will be an "elite 2C" or even a "solid 2C" in the NHL because of his play in the SHL then I can't even imagine how good you think Berggren will be.

The only time that Veleno has excelled as a center was as an overager in the CHL. You've already compared him to a completely pedestrian player in Danault. The funny thing is, I agree with that assessment.  I think Veleno will be a two-way, mid-40s point, center. And if a guy like that is your 2nd line center you're totally f*cked because there are a whole bunch of teams with WAY better center depth than that.

Edited December 16, 2020 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Joe Veleno will never be "elite" in the NHL. Regardless of how many times you say so. And him being the 6th most productive player on a s***ty SHL team is hardly evidence that he will. If you think Veleno will be an "elite 2C" or even a "solid 2C" in the NHL because of his play in the SHL then I can't even imagine how good you think Berggren will be.

The only time that Veleno has excelled as a center was as an overager in the CHL. You've already compared him to a completely pedestrian player in Danault. The funny thing is, I agree with that assessment.  I think Veleno will be a two-way, mid-40s point, center. And if a guy like that is your 2nd line center you're totally f*cked because there are a whole bunch of teams with WAY better center depth than that.

Why do teams even scout players? Why is that even a job title? Why not just do what kipwinger does and look at stats to determine which players will be good / not good...

Berggren good. Veleno not good. Got it. Thanks!

Veleno was never an "overager" in the CHL. He was playing in the AHL in what would have been his "overage" season. Like I keep telling you, but you refuse to listen, Veleno has been ahead of his peers at every level. He entered the CHL as an "underager", and did the same in the AHL. Yes, Europeans can and sometimes do the same, but they're still "underage" comparative to when players typically make the jump to pro.

[kipwinger 8,520]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Why do teams even scout players? Why is that even a job title? Why not just do what kipwinger does and look at stats to determine which players will be good / not good...

Berggren good. Veleno not good. Got it. Thanks!

Veleno was never an "overager" in the CHL. He was playing in the AHL in what would have been his "overage" season. Like I keep telling you, but you refuse to listen, Veleno has been ahead of his peers at every level. He entered the CHL as an "underager", and did the same in the AHL. Yes, Europeans can and sometimes do the same, but they're still "underage" comparative to when players typically make the jump to pro.

Heaven forbid I allow my point of view to be influenced by empirical evidence. I should just pass on stats like you do...except you don't. You use stats to make points all the time. Like you've repeatedly done with Killorn and Johnson. It's funny, stats are bad when I use them to point out that Veleno is really mediocre, but they're great when you use them to suggest that Killorn and Johnson aren't going to be any good in a few years. Got it.

There is no standard timeline to get to the NHL. The league you're drafted out of has as much impact on that as how "developed" you are. Veleno went to the AHL early relative to other players in the CHL, not other players in general. TONS of players go to the AHL at the same age, or earlier, than Veleno and perform MUCH better. Larkin did. So did Zadina. So did Seider. So did Svechnikov. ALL of them performed better at that level than Veleno did. He was not doing something that many many many many other players haven't done, more successfully, than he did.

The only year Veleno has been at the top of ANY team (nevermind league) he played in was as a 19 year old, draft +1, player in the CHL.

[krsmith17 7,191]

13 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Heaven forbid I allow my point of view to be influenced by empirical evidence. I should just pass on stats like you do...except you don't. You use stats to make points all the time. Like you've repeatedly done with Killorn and Johnson. It's funny, stats are bad when I use them to point out that Veleno is really mediocre, but they're great when you use them to suggest that Killorn and Johnson aren't going to be any good in a few years. Got it.

There is no standard timeline to get to the NHL. The league you're drafted out of has as much impact on that as how "developed" you are. Veleno went to the AHL early relative to other players in the CHL, not other players in general. TONS of players go to the AHL at the same age, or earlier, than Veleno and perform MUCH better. Larkin did. So did Zadina. So did Seider. So did Svechnikov. ALL of them performed better at that level than Veleno did. He was not doing something that many many many many other players haven't done, more successfully, than he did.

The only year Veleno has been at the top of ANY team (nevermind league) he played in was as a 19 year old, draft +1, player in the CHL.

You can use stats, but maybe watch a game or two to go along with your stats. You'd be taken a lot more seriously if you weren't basing your entire argument off of stats. Veleno has looked very good in the SHL. The tools are there. Let's wait and see if he can put it all together, rather than writing him off at the age of 20.

Again, comparing Veleno's situation to Johnson and Killorn? The former is a prospect that will continue to develop. The latter are aging veterans that will eventual decline...

I never said players don't do it. But it is rare. Once again you're comparing Veleno to much better players, drafted much earlier than him. 

Noted. You have to be a top player on your team (nevermind league) to be a top six player in the NHL... 

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Veleno is getting outperformed in the SHL by younger undrafted Swedes

Forget everything I've said. This automatically means he's not going to be an NHL caliber 2C.

[dat's sick 1,002]

21 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Veleno is getting outperformed in the SHL by younger undrafted Swedes

Eklund? He's gonna be a top 10 pick. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 minutes ago, dat's sick said:

Eklund? He's gonna be a top 10 pick. 

Maybe even top 5, but he's also three years younger. Veleno should be scoring more (and he has the past few games), but I don't think his production (or lack there of) in the SHL as a 20 year old is sealing his fait one way or another in regards to the player he'll be in the NHL.

[krsmith17 7,191]

19 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Eklund, Berggren, Seider, Raymond, Holtz, Hoglander, Drury, Peterson, Berglund, Lundkvist, Oberg, Andersson...

He's either older or slightly younger than all those players. Some bigger names than others. He should be dominating a good portion of those players on the stat sheet though and he's not.

Fate sealed.

[dat's sick 1,002]

25 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

 

Eklund, Berggren, Seider, Raymond, Holtz, Hoglander, Drury, Peterson, Berglund, Lundkvist, Oberg, Andersson...

He's either older or slightly younger than all those players. Some bigger names than others. He should be dominating a good portion of those players on the stat sheet though and he's not.

You said undrafted. Definitely don't think it's realistic to assume Veleno should dominate high-end draft picks that project as potential all-stars. Even if he's a little older. In terms of pro experience, Veleno isn't really more experienced than most of those names, and he's on by far the worst team of any of them. 

As someone who has actually watched all those guys play this year I wouldn't say Veleno is being outperformed by most. It's not as easy as "1 point more"= much better performance overall. 

 

edit: keep in mind the only player who is really "dominating" on the scoresheet (among forwards) is Berggren. And if Berggren keeps his production up it'll be one of the best U21 seasons in SHL history. If that's your baseline expectation for a prospect we're hoping to get a 2nd line center from, I'm not sure what to say. Pretty much all the other guys are close enough that 3-4 games of going cold/hot can completely change how their production looks. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by dat's sick

[mackel 679]

8 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

At age 20 Hudler scored at a 1.00 PPG pace in the Czech league on a not so great team.

At age 21 Zadina only managed a 0.82 PPG pace in the Czech league on a good team.

Don't say I didn't warn you

BUT, BUT, BUT THE HYPE.... FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THE HYPE!!!!

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

Lol. So now we're basing the futures of every Czech league player on Jiri Hudler?

[marcaractac 3,962]

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I don't disagree with you, but you're coming late to the debate. The only reason we're even discussing "elite" 2C players is because KRsmith said Veleno has elite upside. Which is absurd. If he'd said that Veleno would be an "ideal" 2C (he's compared him to Danault) I would still disagree because Danault isn't even a very good 2C when compared to the guys you mentioned, but at least it wouldn't be as patently absurd as saying Veleno has "elite" upside.

The fact of that matter is that we don't have many players with higher end upside, and almost none at center and that's a huge problem. If Joe Veleno is a Danault-like player in a few years, and is playing on our 2nd line, we're f*cked because good teams don't have 45 pt 2nd line centers. That would be a disaster, which is why I've said many times that a player like that is best slotted on a 3rd line like Jordan Staal. Something KRsmtih disagreed with until he realized that Staal is actually better than Danault lol.

Oh I agree Veleno will never be Elite. If he had Elite upside he would have never fallen to Detroit in the draft. Larkin will never be Elite either. He will be really good for a lot of years. But Elite? Nah. Veleno will likely provide a lot of important minutes down the middle for the Wings. But yeah, the word Elite gets thrown around far too casually these days. 

Between the last two drafts and the next, we need two or three Elite guys to emerge in the worst way. There is some potential on the Blueline and wing, but God damn we need a center with the first round pick next year.

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Oh I agree Veleno will never be Elite. If he had Elite upside he would have never fallen to Detroit in the draft.

If this were true, teams would never find "elite" players outside of the 1st round. Is Kucherov not elite?

3 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Larkin will never be Elite either. He will be really good for a lot of years. But Elite? Nah. Veleno will likely provide a lot of important minutes down the middle for the Wings. But yeah, the word Elite gets thrown around far too casually these days. 

I don't think the word gets thrown around too casually. I think words get scrutinized and put under the microscope far too often. By definition almost every NHL player can be labeled as elite, as they are the best in the world at what they do.

In saying that, it was quite clear by everything else I was saying that I don't think Veleno will ever be elite, in terms of an NHL player. Veleno, like most NHL quality players though, does have elite attributes. He is an elite skater. There is no question about that. His acceleration, top end speed, edge work is elite. I would also say his hands and vision are borderline elite.

3 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Between the last two drafts and the next, we need two or three Elite guys to emerge in the worst way. There is some potential on the Blueline and wing, but God damn we need a center with the first round pick next year.

We need elite players, regardless of position. Ideally we'll be able to add a center, but if the best player available is a defenseman (Owen Power), so be it.

[marcaractac 3,962]

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

If this were true, teams would never find "elite" players outside of the 1st round. Is Kucherov not elite?

I don't think the word gets thrown around too casually. I think words get scrutinized and put under the microscope far too often. By definition almost every NHL player can be labeled as elite, as they are the best in the world at what they do.

In saying that, it was quite clear by everything else I was saying that I don't think Veleno will ever be elite, in terms of an NHL player. Veleno, like most NHL quality players though, does have elite attributes. He is an elite skater. There is no question about that. His acceleration, top end speed, edge work is elite. I would also say his hands and vision are borderline elite.

We need elite players, regardless of position. Ideally we'll be able to add a center, but if the best player available is a defenseman (Owen Power), so be it.

Dude I did not say Elite players cannot be found beyond the first round. I'm simply pointing to the fact that Veleno fell in the draft due to concerns about his ceiling at the time. GMs did not see Elite potential there and passed. In hindsight, they were probably right about the elite aspect. But possibly wrong about how good he could possibly be. 

Sure, you can say all (most) NHLers are elite hockey players. But we are not talking about players relative to the entire planet. We are talking about players specifically in the NHL. So in relation to all NHL players, only the best of the best can be Elite. There is no such thing as an elite 4th line player. It would simply be a player on a deep team playing a position lower than he is capable of.

Figure skaters are elite skaters too. So by default are we calling them borderline elite NHLers? Elite players have the total package and dominate their peers. The cream rises to the top.

And maybe we not determine the best player available at the next draft before we even have the next hockey season? That kind of only works when generational talent (or close to it) is involved. Not the case this time. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

15 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Dude I did not say Elite players cannot be found beyond the first round. I'm simply pointing to the fact that Veleno fell in the draft due to concerns about his ceiling at the time. GMs did not see Elite potential there and passed. In hindsight, they were probably right about the elite aspect. But possibly wrong about how good he could possibly be. 

Sure, you can say all (most) NHLers are elite hockey players. But we are not talking about players relative to the entire planet. We are talking about players specifically in the NHL. So in relation to all NHL players, only the best of the best can be Elite. There is no such thing as an elite 4th line player. It would simply be a player on a deep team playing a position lower than he is capable of.

Figure skaters are elite skaters too. So by default are we calling them borderline elite NHLers? Elite players have the total package and dominate their peers. The cream rises to the top.

And maybe we not determine the best player available at the next draft before we even have the next hockey season? That kind of only works when generational talent (or close to it) is involved. Not the case this time. 

Dude, maybe you should read what you said again. "If *player* had elite upside, he never would have fallen to *30th overall*", implies that players with elite upside never fall to 30th overall...

I'm not saying GM's or scouts were wrong about the elite aspect. AGAIN, I don't think Veleno will be an elite NHL player relative to the entire league. That was very clear in everything I said. I do however, think if everything goes right, he could be one of the better 2nd line centers in the league. We can use elite relative to league, but not position. Got it. Can we still use it relative to a specific attribute? 

Yes, I am obviously saying that figure skaters would be elite NHL players... You must have gotten that from when I said I don't think Veleno will be elite, despite his elite skating...

[marcaractac 3,962]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Dude, maybe you should read what you said again. "If *player* had elite upside, he never would have fallen to *30th overall*", implies that players with elite upside never fall to 30th overall...

I'm not saying GM's or scouts were wrong about the elite aspect. AGAIN, I don't think Veleno will be an elite NHL player relative to the entire league. That was very clear in everything I said. I do however, think if everything goes right, he could be one of the better 2nd line centers in the league. We can use elite relative to league, but not position. Got it. Can we still use it relative to a specific attribute? 

Yes, I am obviously saying that figure skaters would be elite NHL players... You must have gotten that from when I said I don't think Veleno will be elite, despite his elite skating...

I was referring to the specific case of Veleno, not as some all encompassing rule. He fell because of questions about his ceiling. GMs didn't see elite potential there. In this case, they were correct. Which does not mean that Veleno will never ever make some GMs regret passing on him, because he could. 

I don't disagree that Veleno could possibly be a really good 2C some day. I just think using the word elite in terms of position is silly. If we can throw the word elite around so loosely, I'm an elite hockey player at the pee wee level. It makes sense to be the among the best at your position. But 2C is not a position, it's a spot in the lineup. You're an elite center or you're not. And no, I'm not saying you think Veleno will be an elite center. We agree there.

The figure skating thing was a joke. Darren Helm is an elite skater as well. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

15 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Lol. So now we're basing the futures of every Czech league player on Jiri Hudler?

Lizard brains in full effect  

[ely s 457]

2 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Berglund - Dman, 7th round pick, 6 months older than Veleno, outscoring him.
Lundkvist - Forward, 28th overall pick, 5 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Peterson - Forward, 5th round pick, 7 months older than Veleno, outscoring him.
Oberg - Forward, 7th round pick, 5 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Andersson - Forward, undrafted, 6 months older than Veleno, outscoring him.
Eklund, Forward, undrafted, 2 years and 9 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Hoglander, Forward, 2nd round pick, 1 year and 11 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Seider, Dman, 6th overall pick, 1 year and 3 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Holtz, Forward, 7th overall pick, 2 years younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Drury, Forward, 2nd round pick, 1 month younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Raymond, Forward, 4th overall pick, 2 years and 2 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Berggren, Forward, 2nd round pick, 7 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.

Veleno comes with the unique distinction that he he already has AHL mens league experience and is a 1st round pick. He should be dominating almost all these players. Especially the Dmen, guys drafted significantly lower, or guys significantly younger. But he's not. AHL is the highest league in the world outside the NHL and KHL.

All but three of the aforementioned players are Swedes playing in their home country and I´m not a 100% sure if there´s such a big difference between the AHL and SHL. You also accidently forgot to mention that he plays on the worst team and that if you take his first ten games away, as a kind of adjustment period, you get a completly different picture.

Edited December 17, 2020 by ely s

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

18 hours ago, dat's sick said:

Eklund? He's gonna be a top 10 pick. 

E4

[ely s 457]

He is fourth in scoring with 4 games less an Malmö´s roster, so you should probably check first before spreading "news".

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

Just now, ely s said:

He is fourth in scoring with 4 games less an Malmö´s roster, so you should probably check first before spreading "news".

Trump's his hero. What else would you expect?