Red Wings players / prospects on loan

[krsmith17 7,191]

14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I've said many times that Veleno could be a 3C in the mold of Jordan Staal, or could play in the top six as a winger. Only fanboys think those projections are negative.

Veleno could be a 3C (for those that don't know, that means 3rd line CENTER) in the mold of Jordan Staal. But also, Veleno won't play center in the NHL because he can't even play center in the SHL...

17 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Veleno isn't even good enough to play center on his current (bad) team. Justin Abdelkader played center his whole career until he got to the NHL too. So did Helm. So did Franzen. So did a whole bunch of guys. Only difference is that they didn't get exposed until they got to the NHL. For Veleno it's happening a little earlier.

Abdelkader and Helm played center up until the NHL, transitioned to wing, so that obviously means that Veleno will do the same...

18 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You argue both sides of points all the time. That's nothing new. And then when you called out for being wrong about one side, you embrace the other. For instance, you've literally said that Filip Hronek would both be be a "bust" and a "top four" defenseman in the past.

Once you have an opinion, never change it, regardless how things pan out.

[kipwinger 8,522]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Veleno could be a 3C (for those that don't know, that means 3rd line CENTER) in the mold of Jordan Staal. But also, Veleno won't play center in the NHL because he can't even play center in the SHL...

Abdelkader and Helm played center up until the NHL, transitioned to wing, so that obviously means that Veleno will do the same...

Once you have an opinion, never change it, regardless how things pan out.

Lol. Nice try. I've NEVER said he couldn't play center in the NHL. I said he won't be a top six center. And you know that because we've debated this many times. You're being deliberately obtuse now because you're trying to win an argument. You know perfectly well what my point is and yet you lie and obfuscate and deflect because you can't just admit that Veleno isn't a very good center, which is what pretty much all the evidence up to this point suggests.

Lol. You didn't change your opinion on Hronek over time. You projected him as a bust AND a top four defenseman in the same thread.

[mackel 679]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Dylan Larkin, a legit number one NHL center.

Joe Veleno, a high end center prospect.

Only kipwinger would act like these two things are similar.

Imagine thinking Malmo, "the worst team in the 4th best league" know what's better for Veleno's development than Steve Yzerman and the Detroit Red Wings...

WRONG!

He's a very good 2nd line center.

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Lol. Nice try. I've NEVER said he couldn't play center in the NHL. I said he won't be a top six center. And you know that because we've debated this many times. You're being deliberately obtuse now because you're trying to win an argument. You know perfectly well what my point is and yet you lie and obfuscate and deflect because you can't just admit that Veleno isn't a very good center, which is what pretty much all the evidence up to this point suggests.

Lol. You didn't change your opinion on Hronek over time. You projected him as a bust AND a top four defenseman in the same thread.

What evidence exactly? Point totals based on two different 12 game stretches, in a year he is transitioning to, like has been mentioned many times (and is obviously falling on deaf ears), a different league, in a different country, on a different size ice...?

It's crazy to me that you admittedly don't watch SHL games, probably haven't seen Veleno play a single game this season, and you're still spewing s*** like you have a clue what your talking about... based solely on point totals... lol

You also said Veleno has limited offense in his game. He's proved that wrong over this last stretch. He will eventually prove you wrong again with your "better suited on the wing" theory...

4 hours ago, mackel said:

WRONG!

He's a very good 2nd line center.

Based on what? Larkin has been and will continue to be a very good top line center. Like it or not, unless we get lucky in the 2022 draft and land Wright, Larkin will be our 1C for the foreseeable future.

[kipwinger 8,522]

42 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

What evidence exactly? Point totals based on two different 12 game stretches, in a year he is transitioning to, like has been mentioned many times (and is obviously falling on deaf ears), a different league, in a different country, on a different size ice...?

It's crazy to me that you admittedly don't watch SHL games, probably haven't seen Veleno play a single game this season, and you're still spewing s*** like you have a clue what your talking about... based solely on point totals... lol

You also said Veleno has limited offense in his game. He's proved that wrong over this last stretch. He will eventually prove you wrong again with your "better suited on the wing" theory...

Based on what? Larkin has been and will continue to be a very good top line center. Like it or not, unless we get lucky in the 2022 draft and land Wright, Larkin will be our 1C for the foreseeable future.

So Veleno not scoring until he got moved to the wing is proof that he will be a better center than a winger? First rate thinking bud. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

32 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

So Veleno not scoring until he got moved to the wing is proof that he will be a better center than a winger? First rate thinking bud. 

No. There's no "proof" that Veleno will be a better center than a winger. No more than there is proof that he is a better winger than center... However, the fact that he's played center his entire career up to this point, and the tools that make him a good player, are coincidentally the same tools that make a good center, is what indicates to me that he will be an NHL center. Not to mention  the fact that the Red Wings will most definitely continue to play him at center when he gets back to North America in a few months.

[kipwinger 8,522]

8 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No. There's no "proof" that Veleno will be a better center than a winger. No more than there is proof that he is a better winger than center... However, the fact that he's played center his entire career up to this point, and the tools that make him a good player, are coincidentally the same tools that make a good center, is what indicates to me that he will be an NHL center. Not to mention  the fact that the Red Wings will most definitely continue to play him at center when he gets back to North America in a few months.

Ahahahahaha he’s so good at center that he can’t play there on a s***ty team in a 3rd rate league, and he does better when he’s NOT playing there, and you think the Wings management is going to ignore that? Especially considering they were the ones that sent him to that s***ty team in that 3rd rate league in the first place? 
 

As I’ve said before, you are the Larry Nassar of mental gymnastics. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Ahahahahaha he’s so good at center that he can’t play there on a s***ty team in a 3rd rate league, and he does better when he’s NOT playing there, and you think the Wings management is going to ignore that? Especially considering they were the ones that sent him to that s***ty team in that 3rd rate league in the first place? 

As I’ve said before, you are the Larry Nassar of mental gymnastics. 

Absof***inglutely. I guarantee Veleno's time at center is not done. When he gets back to Michigan, he will be playing center once again. 

It's hilarious that you think he "can't" play center in the SHL, or that the ONLY reason he started putting up points is because he was switched to wing. I'm sure that's definitely part of it, but maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with adapting to the different size ice, in a different league, in a different country. Or maybe even playing with better players. You really think his point totals would be that drastically different right now if he were centering that same line, and Howden was on the wing? Maybe a point or two in the difference, one way or the other, but overall it would be about the same.

[mackel 679]

On 1/8/2021 at 11:04 PM, krsmith17 said:

What evidence exactly? Point totals based on two different 12 game stretches, in a year he is transitioning to, like has been mentioned many times (and is obviously falling on deaf ears), a different league, in a different country, on a different size ice...?

It's crazy to me that you admittedly don't watch SHL games, probably haven't seen Veleno play a single game this season, and you're still spewing s*** like you have a clue what your talking about... based solely on point totals... lol

You also said Veleno has limited offense in his game. He's proved that wrong over this last stretch. He will eventually prove you wrong again with your "better suited on the wing" theory...

Based on what? Larkin has been and will continue to be a very good top line center. Like it or not, unless we get lucky in the 2022 draft and land Wright, Larkin will be our 1C for the foreseeable future.

He's our #1C by default...  as you correctly point out, we literally have nobody else for the roll.  We have several replacement level centers a couple of 3Cs and Larkin.  He's playing up in a very thin line up.

I can't think of a single contender where, if given Larkin for free, he'd push their current 1C down the line up.  

That's because he's a 2C.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, mackel said:

He's our #1C by default...  as you correctly point out, we literally have nobody else for the roll.  We have several replacement level centers a couple of 3Cs and Larkin.  He's playing up in a very thin line up.

I can't think of a single contender where, if given Larkin for free, he'd push their current 1C down the line up.  

That's because he's a 2C.

Do you have anything to contribute other than "Larkin is a 2C" and "Zadina Sucks"? You're like a broken record.

Anyway, some articles I found that seem to contradict you. From actual experts.

https://thehockeywriters.com/red-wings-larkin-2020-21-production/

Article highlights Larkin's challenges as a 1C and that he will put up the points as the team gets better.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-fantasy-hockey-best-centers-top-50-rankings-2020-21/c-299921028

https://www.fantasypros.com/nhl/rankings/c.php

Both articles put him at 31. Not flattering, but still a 1C.

If you're spoiled and comparing Larkin to the likes of Yzerman, Federov, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg, you're being unfair. He's never going to measure up. That said, Larkin doesn't have to be a HOF to justify being a 1C. Even after a poor season from him, he's still a low end 1C. His performance 2 years ago shows that he has the ability to be a top 15 NHL center in the mold of a Jonathan Toews. As the team improves, so will Larkin's numbers. He'll never be a top 10 or elite NHL center. That doesn't make him a 2C.

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, mackel said:

He's our #1C by default...  as you correctly point out, we literally have nobody else for the roll.  We have several replacement level centers a couple of 3Cs and Larkin.  He's playing up in a very thin line up.

I can't think of a single contender where, if given Larkin for free, he'd push their current 1C down the line up.  

That's because he's a 2C.

How many "contenders" are in the league any given year? 5? 10? So you're saying Larkin isn't a top 10 center in the league? Literally no one is saying he is. He's not as good as McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, etc? No s***! That doesn't mean he's not a legitimate 1C. He absolutely is by just about every metric. He's playing on by far the worst team in the league. As the team improves, so will his numbers. I'll bet on him being close to a point per game again this season, while playing in all situations, and going head to head against the leagues best every night. That's a 1C calibre player on any team in the league.

[mackel 679]

35 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

How many "contenders" are in the league any given year? 5? 10? So you're saying Larkin isn't a top 10 center in the league? Literally no one is saying he is. He's not as good as McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, etc? No s***! That doesn't mean he's not a legitimate 1C. He absolutely is by just about every metric. He's playing on by far the worst team in the league. As the team improves, so will his numbers. I'll bet on him being close to a point per game again this season, while playing in all situations, and going head to head against the leagues best every night. That's a 1C calibre player on any team in the league.

Nice side step, you might just be a politician.

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Do you have anything to contribute other than "Larkin is a 2C" and "Zadina Sucks"? You're like a broken record.

Anyway, some articles I found that seem to contradict you. From actual experts.

https://thehockeywriters.com/red-wings-larkin-2020-21-production/

Article highlights Larkin's challenges as a 1C and that he will put up the points as the team gets better.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-fantasy-hockey-best-centers-top-50-rankings-2020-21/c-299921028

https://www.fantasypros.com/nhl/rankings/c.php

Both articles put him at 31. Not flattering, but still a 1C.

If you're spoiled and comparing Larkin to the likes of Yzerman, Federov, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg, you're being unfair. He's never going to measure up. That said, Larkin doesn't have to be a HOF to justify being a 1C. Even after a poor season from him, he's still a low end 1C. His performance 2 years ago shows that he has the ability to be a top 15 NHL center in the mold of a Jonathan Toews. As the team improves, so will Larkin's numbers. He'll never be a top 10 or elite NHL center. That doesn't make him a 2C.

I'm like a broken record because people still need education on both counts.  31st ranking, that's what you want to hang your hat on, then by all means.  To be a contender we need Larking playing at 2C, if not we're a pretender.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, mackel said:

Nice side step, you might just be a politician.

What exactly did I "side step"?

1 hour ago, mackel said:

I'm like a broken record because people still need education on both counts.  31st ranking, that's what you want to hang your hat on, then by all means.  To be a contender we need Larking playing at 2C, if not we're a pretender.

No one is hanging their hat on a 31st ranked center. Larkin was a 31st ranked center in a down season on a historically bad team, with very little support. Larkin is much better than the 31st ranked center in the league. He's a middle of the pack 1C right now, with still some room to grow. 

Ryan O'Reilly is a legitimate 1C. The St. Louis Blues won a Stanley Cup with O'Reilly as their number one center. This team isn't winning s*** as is, but this team can absolutely win a Stanley Cup with Larkin as the number one center. We'll need a 1B to Larkin's 1A, more support around him, better depth down the lineup, improved defense, and capable goaltending.

A lot of work needs to be done, and Yzerman knows this. He's more than capable of building this team into a contender, and like it or not, that likely includes Larkin (soon to be captain) as the number one center for the foreseeable future.

[mackel 679]

28 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

What exactly did I "side step"?

No one is hanging their hat on a 31st ranked center. Larkin was a 31st ranked center in a down season on a historically bad team, with very little support. Larkin is much better than the 31st ranked center in the league. He's a middle of the pack 1C right now, with still some room to grow. 

 Ryan O'Reilly is a legitimate 1C. The St. Louis Blues won a Stanley Cup with O'Reilly as their number one center. This team isn't winning s*** as is, but this team can absolutely win a Stanley Cup with Larkin as the number one center. We'll need a 1B to Larkin's 1A, more support around him, better depth down the lineup, improved defense, and capable goaltending.

A lot of work needs to be done, and Yzerman knows this. He's more than capable of building this team into a contender, and like it or not, that likely includes Larkin (soon to be captain) as the number one center for the foreseeable future.

Now you're paraphrasing me...  I've said multiple times we'll need another 2C of Larkin's ability to have any chance.  #StopTheSteal

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, mackel said:

Now you're paraphrasing me...  I've said multiple times we'll need another 2C of Larkin's ability to have any chance.  #StopTheSteal

Yes, we'll need another 1C of Larkin's ability to have a chance. That, we agree on.

[mackel 679]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Yes, we'll need another 1C of Larkin's ability to have a chance. That, we agree on.

2C, quantity over quality.

[WRusco 43]

1 hour ago, mackel said:

Now you're paraphrasing me...  I've said multiple times we'll need another 2C of Larkin's ability to have any chance.  #StopTheSteal

 

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Yes, we'll need another 1C of Larkin's ability to have a chance. That, we agree on.

We do not need another #1C or #2C of Larkins ability. We need a true #1C and Larkin can go to #2C where he belongs.

[krsmith17 7,191]

45 minutes ago, WRusco said:

We do not need another #1C or #2C of Larkins ability. We need a true #1C and Larkin can go to #2C where he belongs.

Larkin is a true #1C though. That's the point...

Larkin isn't going to be bumped out of that role unless we get an elite player like a McDavid or Matthews 1st overall. Even if we draft a center in the top three in one of the next two drafts, it would likely be a minimum of 5-7 years before he'd bump Larkin off that top line, and that's IF he ever ends up better than Larkin, which is no guarantee...

Again, like it or not, Larkin will likely be the number one center on this team for the next several years at least. 

[WRusco 43]

24 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Larkin is a true #1C though. That's the point...

Larkin isn't going to be bumped out of that role unless we get an elite player like a McDavid or Matthews 1st overall. Even if we draft a center in the top three in one of the next two drafts, it would likely be a minimum of 5-7 years before he'd bump Larkin off that top line, and that's IF he ever ends up better than Larkin, which is no guarantee...

Again, like it or not, Larkin will likely be the number one center on this team for the next several years at least. 

The point is, is Larkin is NOT a #1C. He is a real good #2C.  The only reason he is #1 in Detroit is we have no one better,

[Buppy 1,720]

4 minutes ago, WRusco said:

The point is, is Larkin is NOT a #1C. He is a real good #2C.  The only reason he is #1 in Detroit is we have no one better,

The only reason anyone is a #1 anything is because that team has no one better. 

Over the last 3 years, Larkin is 28th in ppg. His best year was 21st. He's a 1C, just not a very good one. Whether we "need" anyone better is debatable. Many ways to skin a cat, as they say, though if he stays on the low end of the scoring spectrum he should at least be a Selke candidate. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

19 minutes ago, WRusco said:

The point is, is Larkin is NOT a #1C. He is a real good #2C.  The only reason he is #1 in Detroit is we have no one better,

This simply isn't true. Stop listening to the dummies. Larkin is a 1C.

It's already been explained what makes Larkin a 1C. Explain what makes him "not a 1C".

[WRusco 43]

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

This simply isn't true. Stop listening to the dummies. Larkin is a 1C.

It's already been explained what makes Larkin a 1C. Explain what makes him "not a 1C".

I don't listen to dummies. I can form my own opinions. Larkin is not a #1C. I never thought he would be. But I think he can be a very good #2C.

As for an explaination,  His hockey IQ is only above avg. His passing skills are only above avg. His skating is well above avg. 

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

41 minutes ago, WRusco said:

I don't listen to dummies. I can form my own opinions. Larkin is not a #1C. I never thought he would be. But I think he can be a very good #2C.

As for an explaination,  His hockey IQ is only above avg. His passing skills are only above avg. His skating is well above avg. 

People a lot smarter than you or I say that Larkin is a number one center. The stats say that Larkin is a number one center. You and a couple other dummies (the same dummies that think Zadina is a bust) are the only ones that think Larkin isn't a number one center. Don't be a dummy.

Average compared to what? Larkin is an elite skater, high hockey IQ, good passer. 

[WRusco 43]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

People a lot smarter than you or I say that Larkin is a number one center. The stats say that Larkin is a number one center. You and a couple other dummies (the same dummies that think Zadina is a bust) are the only ones that think Larkin isn't a number one center. Don't be a dummy.

Average compared to what? Larkin is an elite skater, high hockey IQ, good passer. 

Who say's people a lot smarter than me or you? They have their opinions like anyone else. But when you belittle people for their opinion makes you the biggest dummy on the board. 

The average I use is other centers.

I stand by my opinion that Larkin is not a #1C. 

As to Zadina, I never said he was a bust, only he is not a #1 line forward.

[krsmith17 7,191]

35 minutes ago, WRusco said:

The average I use is other centers.

I stand by my opinion that Larkin is not a #1C. 

As to Zadina, I never said he was a bust, only he is not a #1 line forward.

What "other centers"? Other centers in the NHL? Other top line centers in the NHL?

I never even knew you said that about Zadina, but what are you basing that opinion on? He's definitely projecting to be a top six winger, and has the potential to be a top line winger.