Red Wings players / prospects on loan

[WRusco 43]

58 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

What "other centers"? Other centers in the NHL? Other top line centers in the NHL?

I never even knew you said that about Zadina, but what are you basing that opinion on? He's definitely projecting to be a top six winger, and has the potential to be a top line winger.

Other centers in the NHL.

What I'm saying about Zadina is he will be a real good #2 line forward that can fill in on the top line if needed. Also I see a place for him on the 2nd PP unit.

And after watching the Red/White game tonight, his stock went up. I thought he played real well. Zadina, Nametsnikov and Fabbri played real good. I can see a second line capable of consistant scoring.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by WRusco

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, WRusco said:

What I'm saying about Zadina is he will be a real good #2 line forward that can fill in on the top line if needed. Also I see a place for him on the 2nd PP unit.

And after watching the Red/White game tonight, his stock went up. I thought he played real well. Zadina, Nametsnikov and Fabbri played real good. I can see a second line capable of consistant scoring.

Zadina may end up playing on the 2nd line, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's not a 1st line caliber winger. Teams rarely have their top two wingers (especially if they're both better suited on the same side) on the top line. Zadina will be in competition with Mantha, for that top RW spot. If both are top line caliber wingers, one will have to play on the 2nd line. It depends on how Blashill wants to spread out the offense. Same applies to the power-play units.

I'm not sure if anyone's stock should go up or down in one (or even three) Red/White games, but I agree, Zadina and that whole line looked really good. I'm really likely Fabbri at center so far, and Namestnikov has been impressive in all three scrimmages. Brome has looked good as well.

[WRusco 43]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Zadina may end up playing on the 2nd line, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's not a 1st line caliber winger. Teams rarely have their top two wingers (especially if they're both better suited on the same side) on the top line. Zadina will be in competition with Mantha, for that top RW spot. If both are top line caliber wingers, one will have to play on the 2nd line. It depends on how Blashill wants to spread out the offense. Same applies to the power-play units.

I'm not sure if anyone's stock should go up or down in one (or even three) Red/White games, but I agree, Zadina and that whole line looked really good. I'm really likely Fabbri at center so far, and Namestnikov has been impressive in all three scrimmages. Brome has looked good as well.

Zadina may well be a 1st line winger. He has improved every year so far, but he would need to bump Mantha down. Possible, but not likely as Mantha has shown flashes of being a top 10-15 range power forward. So, a tough road ahead.

Understood about 3 scrimmages. I want to see Fabbri, Nametsikov and Zadina together for 10-15 games. That will give them time to gel together and give us a good idea of how good they can be.

I think Brome has earned a 3rd line roll. He looks to be able to play 2nd line if needed.

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

21 minutes ago, WRusco said:

Zadina may well be a 1st line winger. He has improved every year so far, but he would need to bump Mantha down. Possible, but not likely as Mantha has shown flashes of being a top 10-15 range power forward. So, a tough road ahead.

That's my point though, and the same applies to Larkin. Zadina projects to be a top line caliber winger (regardless where he ends up in the lineup), and Larkin has been and will continue to be a top line caliber center. If we acquire a center better than Larkin, bumping him down to the 2nd line, that would be great, but it doesn't change the fact that Larkin IS a top line caliber center.

Regardless, the only way I see Larkin getting bumped off that top line is if we draft Shane Wright in 2022, and even then, it would likely be 2024 (at the earliest) before he would be ready to take over the top line (and that's if he actually is McDavid tier)...

Larkin will be the top line center on this team for the foreseeable future. He may never be elite, but surround him with elite wingers, and add depth behind him, and this team will be fine.

[krsmith17 7,191]

14 hours ago, WRusco said:

Who say's people a lot smarter than me or you?

Craig Custance and Dom Luszczyszyn just released an article today ranking the top 100 NHL players...

https://theathletic.com/2311395/2021/01/11/nhl-player-tiers-mcdavid-mackinnon-matthews/

NHL coaches, executives and analysts from around the league helped put these rankings together.

"We wanted it to be more than just a player ranking or even the less subjective results of a mathematical model. We wanted analytics to have a say as well as those who collect a paycheck doing this for a living for one of the 32 teams.

This was our attempt to meld analytics and the eye test to determine where players rate right now, heading into this season."

Broken down into tiers...

MVP
1A - McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews
1B - Crosby, Draisaitl

Franchise
2A - Eichel, Pettersson, Point
2B - Malkin, Barkov, O'Reilly, Couturier, Bergeron

All-Star
3A - Tavares, Barzal, Aho
3B - Scheifele, Zibanejad

Top Line
4A - Dubois, Larkin
4B - Seguin, Horvat, Cirelli, Hertl, Karlsson
4C - Toews, Kopitar, Backstrom, Hischier

So based on this, Larkin is a top 20 center in the league, on a league worst team, with still room to grow. Look at where O'Reilly was in his career at the age of 24 (not as good as Larkin), and where he is now (a franchise caliber center)...

[Akakabuto 1,749]

This should interest some of you! (re Larkin 1C/2C?)

 

Top 100 NHL players: The Athletic’s Player Tiers

An email was sent out to 20 or so people in the NHL. The request to this group of coaches, executives and analysts was a little more complex than usual. For starters, it included a color-coded PDF with over 100 players’ names on it. And we weren’t necessarily looking for concrete answers. Just for people within the walls of NHL teams to check our work. It was an audit, really.

The work? We were attempting to replicate our NBA colleague Seth Partnow’s project in which he separated the NBA’s top 125 players into five tiers. In our case, we were omitting goalies, already covered in our annual Goalie Tiers package.

We wanted it to be more than just a player ranking or even the less subjective results of a mathematical model. We wanted analytics to have a say as well as those who collect a paycheck doing this for a living for one of the 32 teams.

This was our attempt to meld analytics and the eye test to determine where players rate right now, heading into this season. And thankfully, people in the game were willing to play along.

“Thanks for including me in your exercise …” started one response from an NHL assistant GM who then went on to provide detailed bullet-point breakdowns of where he disagreed with our first attempt at sorting the Top 100.

“This is a great exercise for all of us,” said a Western Conference executive.

And it was! Starting as a conversation between the authors whose bylines you see on this piece, with Dom’s model as a baseline, we spent hours on the phone shifting players up and down, debating the merits of each player’s individual value. Then, as the responses arrived from coaching staffs and front offices, we shifted again and debated again, merging quantifiable data with our own intuitions and observations.

The result, below, is our final version of many.

Let’s start with a pair of young centers at the top of 4A. Both Pierre-Luc Dubois and Dylan Larkin received support to move up this list. Dubois especially has had visibility over the last year, with a strong performance (10 points in 10 games) in the playoffs. Now he’s in the spotlight because of his trade request, and it’s no surprise teams are calling.

“I would move him up, and here’s my opinion: He’s a size and strength centerman that the (coaches) know they can throw out against any centerman in the league and not have to worry about it at all,” said one executive. “He may not get the 80 points that some of these other guys get, but his 55 points might be just as valuable as Mark Scheifele’s 70 points.”

When sources made their case to move a player up, we’d often counter by asking who they’d move down. You can’t just load up the top tiers.

“I’m taking Dubois’ next five years over Stamkos’,” answered one. “But I’m not sure that’s the right lens to look through for this project.”

“Huberdeau for me. You swap those guys: Florida is a better team, Columbus is worse,” answered another.

There’s also a case to move Larkin, whose exposure to those around the league has been diminished because of the Red Wings’ rebuild. In the last calendar year, he’s played a grand total of 26 games. Sure, he has points in 24 of those games, but nobody noticed. He’s rounded out his game, is better defensively and is expected to be named the captain in Detroit. As the program there rises, so will his stock.

Both Larkin and Dubois have potentially interesting comparables as they mature:

 

 

Only mention of Mantha in the article:

A couple drivers of play in Anthony Mantha and Jaden Schwartz worked their way into this tier. Mantha is an interesting case because he shows glimpses of star power but also can’t stay healthy. He’s a candidate to move up if he can put it all together for a full season.

 

19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Craig Custance and Dom Luszczyszyn just released an article today ranking the top 100 NHL players...

https://theathletic.com/2311395/2021/01/11/nhl-player-tiers-mcdavid-mackinnon-matthews/

NHL coaches, executives and analysts from around the league helped put these rankings together.

"We wanted it to be more than just a player ranking or even the less subjective results of a mathematical model. We wanted analytics to have a say as well as those who collect a paycheck doing this for a living for one of the 32 teams.

This was our attempt to meld analytics and the eye test to determine where players rate right now, heading into this season."

Broken down into tiers...

MVP
1A - McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews
1B - Crosby, Draisaitl

Franchise
2A - Eichel, Pettersson, Point
2B - Malkin, Barkov, O'Reilly, Couturier, Bergeron

All-Star
3A - Tavares, Barzal, Aho
3B - Scheifele, Zibanejad

Top Line
4A - Dubois, Larkin
4B - Seguin, Horvat, Cirelli, Hertl, Karlsson
4C - Toews, Kopitar, Backstrom, Hischier

So based on this, Larkin is a top 20 center in the league, on a league worst team, with still room to grow. Look at where O'Reilly was in his career at the age of 24 (not as good as Larkin), and where he is now (a franchise caliber center)...

f*** you for beating me to it! 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Akakabuto

[krsmith17 7,191]

30 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

f*** you for beating me to it! 

I skimmed most of the article, then posted immediately since it was related to a current LGW debate...

I missed the Larkin to O'Reilly comparison, but I've been banging that drum for over a year now. It's nice to see that model agree with me.

Larkin definitely has that O'Reilly-esqu franchise caliber center potential in him. With help around him, I think he gets there and proves a lot of people wrong.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Lmao habs put corey perry on waivers , so much for some playoff grit no way he clears

we should totally pick him up, hes older but when trade deadline comes a contender will trade for him and we’d easily pick up a 3rd , more value on the trade front than a gagner or erne

 

 

Kylington from the flames on waivers

we should definetly pick him up

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/142238/oliver-kylington

Edited January 11, 2021 by nyqvististhefuture

[marcaractac 3,963]

2 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Lmao habs put corey perry on waivers , so much for some playoff grit no way he clears

we should totally pick him up, hes older but when trade deadline comes a contender will trade for him and we’d easily pick up a 3rd , more value on the trade front than a gagner or erne

Makes me appreciate Lidstrom retiring when he did. Sure, he could have played a few more years easily. But I'm glad we never had to sit back and watch him be a shell of his former self, and that he got to go out at an elite level.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Just now, marcaractac said:

Makes me appreciate Lidstrom retiring when he did. Sure, he could have played a few more years easily. But I'm glad we never had to sit back and watch him be a shell of his former self, and that he got to go out at an elite level.

Say what you will about perry but man he shows up on the big stage , he was good last playoffs ... we would easily get a 3rd for him at the trade deadline

Haa

[Akakabuto 1,749]

15 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I skimmed most of the article, then posted immediately since it was related to a current LGW debate...

I missed the Larkin to O'Reilly comparison, but I've been banging that drum for over a year now. It's nice to see that model agree with me.

Larkin definitely has that O'Reilly-esqu franchise caliber center potential in him. With help around him, I think he gets there and proves a lot of people wrong.

Larkin is awesome. He got some maturing to do and he definitely needs help. The Red Wings being a one line team makes things a lot tougher on him. I don't really care where people rank him today, what's important is how he looks 3-5 years from now and I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be able to become a "true" 1C. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Akakabuto

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Lmao habs put corey perry on waivers , so much for some playoff grit no way he clears

we should totally pick him up, hes older but when trade deadline comes a contender will trade for him and we’d easily pick up a 3rd , more value on the trade front than a gagner or erne

If Ryan is out long-term, I'd consider it. Otherwise, I'd pass.

6 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Kylington from the flames on waivers

we should definetly pick him up

I'd prefer Kylington over Djoos, but neither are likely to be anything more than 3rd pairing defensemen.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

If Ryan is out long-term, I'd consider it. Otherwise, I'd pass.

I'd prefer Kylington over Djoos, but neither are likely to be anything more than 3rd pairing defensemen.

If we got perry its just specifically for trade bait and i dont think he’d replace ryan ... maybe erne?gagner 

If i had to choose one its kylington 100% , we should definetly take a flyer ... he can move the puck up and has some upside? Hes put up good stats ... id have to check flames d core , definetly think hes claimed 

i think we can keep 8 dmen? So djoos and kylington can stay ... if we can eat 50% off Nemeth now and move him to a top team for a 2nd id do it now instead of later but i know that wont happen

 

 

Wowwww

svechnikov on waivers , i knew he wasnt in our plans but this is ludicrous 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by nyqvististhefuture

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

If we got perry its just specifically for trade bait and i dont think he’d replace ryan ... maybe erne?gagner 

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'd much rather Gagner over Perry at this point their careers. If Perry is picked up specifically to replace Erne (I don't think he would be), I'd be all for it.

6 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Wowwww

svechnikov on waivers , i knew he wasnt in our plans but this is ludicrous 

He'll probably clear, with all the injury history. I wouldn't mind Carolina picking him up though to be honest...

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'd much rather Gagner over Perry at this point their careers. If Perry is picked up specifically to replace Erne (I don't think he would be), I'd be all for it.

He'll probably clear, with all the injury history. I wouldn't mind Carolina picking him up though to be honest...

Think at the deadline perry would fetch more than gagner

i doubt svechnikov clears , hes as good as gone  a team can claim him he plays fails and puts them back on waivers no risk . Trust me andrei svechnikov is going nuts right now for the canes to put on a claim and they wont tell their star player no

i just find it f***en idiotic that yzerman would do this without even giving him some games , i knew yzerman didnt have him in his plans but i dont get this

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 minute ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

i just find it f***en idiotic that yzerman would do this without even giving him some games , i knew yzerman didnt have him in his plans but i dont get this

What would you suggest Yzerman do? 

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

i just find it f***en idiotic that yzerman would do this without even giving him some games , i knew yzerman didnt have him in his plans but i dont get this

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

What would you suggest Yzerman do? 

I wouldn't go as far as to say Yzerman is idiotic, but I do think he should have given him a look at least to start the season. The roster is jammed, but there were other options other than waiving Svech...

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

6 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

What would you suggest Yzerman do? 

Nielsen ? No ones gonna claim him , he belings on the taxi squad . This move makes no sense 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I wouldn't go as far as to say Yzerman is idiotic, but I do think he should have given him a look at least to start the season. The roster is jammed, but there were other options other than waiving Svech...

Well, if he's not prepared to put him on the roster (and how could he if he hasn't played enough at camp to see where's he's at?) his only real option is GRs. Unfortunately that means waivers...

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I wouldn't go as far as to say Yzerman is idiotic, but I do think he should have given him a look at least to start the season. The roster is jammed, but there were other options other than waiving Svech...

Love yzerman but its a moronic move ... nielsen,erne, gagner etc... who gives a s*** about those guys we have a ton of similiar players who are 4th line guys . Nielsen to the taxi squad would have went unclaimed 

svechnikov deserved 3-6 games to start  , yzerman never had him in his plans . Knew it all along but didnt think hed go on waivers without playing some games

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 minute ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Nielsen ? No ones gonna claim him , he belings on the taxi squad . This move makes no sense 

Nielsen being bad doesn't mean Svechnikov should be on this team. 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Well, if he's not prepared to put him on the roster (and how could he if he hasn't played enough at camp to see where's he's at?) his only real option is GRs. Unfortunately that means waivers...

Hes out of waivers , tons of players have made team rosters due to this sticking point . Dont see why he wouldnt have been on the same boat

Just now, The 91 of Ryans said:

Nielsen being bad doesn't mean Svechnikov should be on this team. 

Does to me , he should got a look over several players , its not that hes been a brutal 1st rounder hes had ton of injuries to deal with . If he plays elsewhere and pans our and gets 15-20 next season we’ll look dumb

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Well, if he's not prepared to put him on the roster (and how could he if he hasn't played enough at camp to see where's he's at?) his only real option is GRs. Unfortunately that means waivers...

He could have kept him in Detroit, practiced with the team, and maybe give him a look in the next couple weeks when a player(s) inevitably gets injured.

3 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Nielsen being bad doesn't mean Svechnikov should be on this team. 

In the short-term it should.

I don't think it was the smartest move, but I could see it going either way with Svech.

[Buppy 1,720]

Josh Ho-sang is not even a year older, has 24 points in 53 games, and cleared waivers. Svech has 4 in 20, makes $200k more, and is injured again. I'll be shocked if he's claimed. Highly unlikely he has any future here regardless. 

That said, 100% claimed by Carolina and hat trick Thursday.

[krsmith17 7,191]

50 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Josh Ho-sang is not even a year older, has 24 points in 53 games, and cleared waivers. Svech has 4 in 20, makes $200k more, and is injured again. I'll be shocked if he's claimed. Highly unlikely he has any future here regardless. 

Ho-Sang comes with some baggage though doesn't he? Some off ice issues / concerns?

That said, I agree. Svechnikov likely clears.

51 minutes ago, Buppy said:

That said, 100% claimed by Carolina and hat trick Thursday.

I'd love to see it.