Johnson, Killorn, and a 1st?

[daniel1 32]

NHLtraderumors is reporting that the Wings and Bolts are close to a deal involving Tyler Johnson, Alex Killorn, and a 1st rounder coming our way in basically a salary dump move by the Bolts that would allow them to sign their RFA's and still be cap compliant by the start of the season (whenever that will be?). 

https://www.nhltraderumors.me/2020/12/rumor-detroit-and-tampa-bay-closing-in.html?fbclid=IwAe-qhX0NPFPBLvkgB8vGvTZLWqtCvSMiy4QnaSilUR4tQn4Rh8v2wkhY

Johnson is 30 years old and is coming off a 14/17/31 in 65 games season. He has hit 29 goals twice in his career and had a career high 72pts in 2015. He has 4 years left on his deal with a $5mil cap hit each year. He has a MNTC that allows him to submit a 20 team trade list to the Bolts this year according to Capfriendly.com

Killorn is 31 and last season recorded 26/23/49 in 68 games. He's been a solid playoff performer throughout his career despite not getting top line minutes very often and his 49 points last season were a career high despite only playing in 68 games. He has 3 years left on his contract with a cap hit of 4.45mil per year. He also has a MNTC that allows him to submit a 16 team list to the Bolts

If the Bolts throw in a 1st rounder to make the deal happen I would like to see it happen as I think both Johnson and Killorn could be flipped at the trade deadline either this year or next and would provide an instant respectable 2nd line in the meantime. Even if their contracts had to buried in the minors at some point to free up roster spots that wouldn't be the worst situation in the world if it means getting a 1st rounder in the deal. 

As they're both still 30/31 yrs old their decline shouldn't be too significant for at least another 2 or 3 years. If they were to get regular 2nd line minutes and 2nd unit PP time I could see them averaging around 40-50 points per season. If Killorn stays healthy and has a decent regular season his value at the trade deadline could be significant given his playoff success. 

From the players perspective, I'm a bit dubious that Detroit would be on either players allowed trade lists, but maybe they've worked out a deal with management to get traded together if they add the Wings to their lists? 

What are your thoughts about acquiring these two players and a possible draft pick from Stevie's former team?
 

[WRusco 43]

Pass. To much salary and term. This does not fit the rebuild time line.

Johnson (5mil AAV 4 yr) alone should garner a 1st, and 2 2nds, or a 2nd and a  prospect.

Killorn (4.5 mil AAV 3 yr) should garner a 1st, a 2nd and prospect, or 2nds and a prospect. 

And these picks would most likely be late rd picks.

This rumor smacks of very poor asset management.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Yeah, no way Yzerman pulls the trigger on this trade. It would cost a LOT more than a 1st round pick (likely in the 28-31 range) to take on $9.5M in salary cap space over the next 3-4 years for two average middle six forwards...

I think Yzerman will be targeting one of Johnson or Killorn, but like Rusco mentioned, it would cost more than a 1st round pick to take on ONE of those players, let alone two...

If BriseBois is able to get one of them to waive their NTC for Detroit, I'd want at least their 2021 1st round pick, plus a 2022 2nd round pick or prospect of similar value.

Yzerman holds all the cards in this situation. BriseBois has zero leverage. He has to trade one of them to get under the cap, or risk losing Cirelli for next to nothing. Yzerman won't be doing his old buddy any favors here.

I was really hoping we could somehow work out a deal involving Sergachev, but it doesn't look like that will happen now after just signing that three year contract...

[paulwoodsfan 52]

As potentially valuable as guys like Johnson and Killorn might be to playoff contenders, contracts of that length and dollar value would not be easy to unload at the trade deadline, IMO. If either guy comes here, best assume he's here until the final year of his deal. 

[F.Michael 4,590]

Am I the only one to think Stamkos should be moved?

[ely s 457]

Killorn´s three years is the maximum length I would take on, we don´t need long term contracts for past their prime players.

2 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Am I the only one to think Stamkos should be moved?

 

There is not a lot of teams able to take his contract and I´m not sure he would want to come to Detroit.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

Thing is, their contracts aren't really that bad for what you're getting tho. Granted the Wings don't need anymore players of that caliber, and would have to make roster space. But there could be pieces moved out that makes this more palatable. Also they may be exposed in the expansion draft, removing one of those contracts.

[WRusco 43]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Thing is, their contracts aren't really that bad for what you're getting tho. Granted the Wings don't need anymore players of that caliber, and would have to make roster space. But there could be pieces moved out that makes this more palatable. Also they may be exposed in the expansion draft, removing one of those contracts.

The contracts are not that bad, with the proper compensation. 

But, there lies the crux of the problem. At what cost. We have prospects that need looks to see where they are at their  development. 

And how many seasons have we seen the speculation of Helm for prospects or Glendening. So now we add Johnson and Killorn to this list. There are no guarantees of moving anyone at the Trade Deadline and then the rebuild it thrown out of whack.

[daniel1 32]

2 hours ago, WRusco said:

The contracts are not that bad, with the proper compensation. 

But, there lies the crux of the problem. At what cost. We have prospects that need looks to see where they are at their  development. 

And how many seasons have we seen the speculation of Helm for prospects or Glendening. So now we add Johnson and Killorn to this list. There are no guarantees of moving anyone at the Trade Deadline and then the rebuild it thrown out of whack.

I'm under the impression that once they have served their purpose on the roster if one or both of them could not be traded or exposed/picked up in the expansion draft that they could both be sent down to GR and their salaries would not count against the cap, is that not the case? 

If so, then what's the risk? We get a pick and/or a prospect for what will amount to basically nothing. I don't think there's a cap limit in the AHL is there? We don't exactly have much in the way of productive veteran leadership on the team right now unless we're counting guys like Glendening and Helm. Both Killorn and Johnson have won a cup and could bring some stability to the 2nd line. Hopefully we buy out Neilson next year and Filpulla is all but guaranteed to be gone/retired next year when his contract is up. 

Seems like a no-lose scenario to me but maybe I'm missing something... 

[chaps80 1,591]

If they both only had one or two years left on their contracts, maybe. 3 and 4 years? Pass. The Bolts just won the cup..that first would likely end up in the 20-32 range..and 20 might be generous. Makes no sense to me.

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Thing is, their contracts aren't really that bad for what you're getting tho. Granted the Wings don't need anymore players of that caliber, and would have to make roster space. But there could be pieces moved out that makes this more palatable. Also they may be exposed in the expansion draft, removing one of those contracts.

The AAV isn't that bad (still not good), but the term is pretty bad for two 30+ year old players signed for another 3+ seasons, about to hit an inevitable decline. Even without the age factor, you also have to consider their likely drop in production, going from the best team in the league to the worst team in the league... So yeah, unless there's a significant return, I have zero interest in helping Tampa get out of cap hell...

Ask yourself, if Johnson were a UFA this offseason, would you be okay with signing him to a four year, $5M contract? Or Killorn for three years at $4.45M? Hell no! Fans would be pissed, and rightfully so, especially after signing two similarly productive players, for one year, $1M, and two years, $2M...

7 hours ago, daniel1 said:

I'm under the impression that once they have served their purpose on the roster if one or both of them could not be traded or exposed/picked up in the expansion draft that they could both be sent down to GR and their salaries would not count against the cap, is that not the case? 

If so, then what's the risk? We get a pick and/or a prospect for what will amount to basically nothing. I don't think there's a cap limit in the AHL is there? We don't exactly have much in the way of productive veteran leadership on the team right now unless we're counting guys like Glendening and Helm. Both Killorn and Johnson have won a cup and could bring some stability to the 2nd line. Hopefully we buy out Neilson next year and Filpulla is all but guaranteed to be gone/retired next year when his contract is up. 

Seems like a no-lose scenario to me but maybe I'm missing something... 

Yes, a player can be buried in the minors. However, only a shade over a $1M of the contract can be buried, leaving around $3.5-4M on the books for the length of the contract.

I'm not sure about cap limit in the AHL, but there is a veteran limit of, I think four players...

We don't need any more average 30+ year old players on long term contracts. I stand by my 1st round pick, plus a sweetener (or similar package) for each one individually, and I wouldn't take both of them regardless.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

I believe Gagner, Helm and Glendening are all UFA's this year and will probably be flipped at the TDL. Nielsen will likely be bought out over the summer. Seattle will have to take a player, and Johnson or Killorn would be the most desirable out of whose available. It's possible only one would still be on the roster after the expansion draft.

Subtract Helm, Glendening, Gagner, and Nielsen from the roster and replace with one or both of Johnson and Killorn and it doesn't sound so bad to me. And you get a late first round pick out of it.

Edit: Filppula is UFA too. So that's potentially 5 bottom 6 forwards disappearing from this years roster. Even if you bring up guys like Rasmussen, Svech, Timo, and Smith, you still need some vets to fill out the roster. A little pricey, longer term than you'd want, in Johnson and Killorn, but you're still getting the 1st round pick as compensation.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[mackel 681]

On 12/6/2020 at 2:08 AM, daniel1 said:

NHLtraderumors is reporting that the Wings and Bolts are close to a deal involving Tyler Johnson, Alex Killorn, and a 1st rounder coming our way in basically a salary dump move by the Bolts that would allow them to sign their RFA's and still be cap compliant by the start of the season (whenever that will be?). 

https://www.nhltraderumors.me/2020/12/rumor-detroit-and-tampa-bay-closing-in.html?fbclid=IwAe-qhX0NPFPBLvkgB8vGvTZLWqtCvSMiy4QnaSilUR4tQn4Rh8v2wkhY

Johnson is 30 years old and is coming off a 14/17/31 in 65 games season. He has hit 29 goals twice in his career and had a career high 72pts in 2015. He has 4 years left on his deal with a $5mil cap hit each year. He has a MNTC that allows him to submit a 20 team trade list to the Bolts this year according to Capfriendly.com

Killorn is 31 and last season recorded 26/23/49 in 68 games. He's been a solid playoff performer throughout his career despite not getting top line minutes very often and his 49 points last season were a career high despite only playing in 68 games. He has 3 years left on his contract with a cap hit of 4.45mil per year. He also has a MNTC that allows him to submit a 16 team list to the Bolts

If the Bolts throw in a 1st rounder to make the deal happen I would like to see it happen as I think both Johnson and Killorn could be flipped at the trade deadline either this year or next and would provide an instant respectable 2nd line in the meantime. Even if their contracts had to buried in the minors at some point to free up roster spots that wouldn't be the worst situation in the world if it means getting a 1st rounder in the deal. 

As they're both still 30/31 yrs old their decline shouldn't be too significant for at least another 2 or 3 years. If they were to get regular 2nd line minutes and 2nd unit PP time I could see them averaging around 40-50 points per season. If Killorn stays healthy and has a decent regular season his value at the trade deadline could be significant given his playoff success. 

From the players perspective, I'm a bit dubious that Detroit would be on either players allowed trade lists, but maybe they've worked out a deal with management to get traded together if they add the Wings to their lists? 

What are your thoughts about acquiring these two players and a possible draft pick from Stevie's former team?
 

I'd 100% take on both players... but and it's a BIG BUT, I can not lie, it would take a King's ransom...  my ask would be 2021 and 2022 1st rounders and 2 of their top prospects.  In this scenario we'd have all of the leverage and can simply walk if the deal isn't sweet enough.

Worth considering is that some of our prospects can be left in Europe until the season there ends and then recalled... this should roughly get us to the TDL where some of our own UFAs Helm, etc can be traded for futures to open roster spots.

Additionally, we can in a couple of years, retain salary and flip Johnson and/or Killorn for more picks or prospects.

This is EXACTLY the move we should make if the price is right.

[Scott R Lucidi 450]

1st in 2021, 2nd in 2022, 1st in 2023, 2nd in 2024.

 

Then do it.

[kliq 3,755]

No thank you. A first rounder that could realistically be #31 is essentially a second round pick. I’m not taking on all of that term for a second round pick. If I’m Yzerman. I don’t even think I’d take on Johnson alone for that pick.

[krsmith17 7,191]

15 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I believe Gagner, Helm and Glendening are all UFA's this year and will probably be flipped at the TDL. Nielsen will likely be bought out over the summer. Seattle will have to take a player, and Johnson or Killorn would be the most desirable out of whose available. It's possible only one would still be on the roster after the expansion draft.

Subtract Helm, Glendening, Gagner, and Nielsen from the roster and replace with one or both of Johnson and Killorn and it doesn't sound so bad to me. And you get a late first round pick out of it.

Edit: Filppula is UFA too. So that's potentially 5 bottom 6 forwards disappearing from this years roster. Even if you bring up guys like Rasmussen, Svech, Timo, and Smith, you still need some vets to fill out the roster. A little pricey, longer term than you'd want, in Johnson and Killorn, but you're still getting the 1st round pick as compensation.

So your justification for taking on two bad contracts is that some other bad contracts will be falling off next offseason? We're finally getting some cap flexibility. Don't f*** that up by taking on two more bad contracts that no team wants, for minimal compensation.

The likelihood that pick (assuming it's 28-31) is a player (bottom six forward / bottom pair defenseman) is probably around 30-40%, an impact player (top six forward / top four defenseman), around 5-10%, and elite player, less than 1%... That's not worth taking on $9.5M in cap space for the next 3-4 years.

Again, Tampa has zero leverage here. Don't help out a divisional rival, unless we're getting heavily compensated. A late 1st round pick doesn't come close to making it worthwhile.

5 hours ago, kliq said:

If I’m Yzerman. I don’t even think I’d take on Johnson alone for that pick.

Exactly. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

8 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

So your justification for taking on two bad contracts is that some other bad contracts will be falling off next offseason? We're finally getting some cap flexibility. Don't f*** that up by taking on two more bad contracts that no team wants, for minimal compensation.

The likelihood that pick (assuming it's 28-31) is a player (bottom six forward / bottom pair defenseman) is probably around 30-40%, an impact player (top six forward / top four defenseman), around 5-10%, and elite player, less than 1%... That's not worth taking on $9.5M in cap space for the next 3-4 years.

Again, Tampa has zero leverage here. Don't help out a divisional rival, unless we're getting heavily compensated. A late 1st round pick doesn't come close to making it worthwhile.

Exactly. 

I'm not saying anything. I'm trying to examine the trade from the aspect of: If Yzerman does it, how does this work, how does it benefit the team?

I am actually trying to look at it from both sides: reasons for it, reasons against it. I don't just make snap judgments. I actually try to rationalize it before taking a side. Those of you who are against it have made your arguments for why you wouldn't do it. I am simply approaching it from the other side. Looking for reasons why it could work, reasons why SY may want to make such a trade.

Would I personally take on both contracts with only a 1st round pick as compensation? No. But there's nothing wrong with trying to understand why, if Yzerman makes such a trade, he might be making it.

Again. The Wings are still getting 2 very good forwards. They will need to sign vets to fill the roster after this season anyway. Obviously SY would not sign either of those guys to contracts of that dollar amount or term in free agency. So is the 1st round pick worth the small overpayment and extra year or 2 on the contract? That's really the question here.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I'm not saying anything. I'm trying to examine the trade from the aspect of: If Yzerman does it, how does this work, how does it benefit the team?

You're saying a lot actually. None of which is making a whole lot of sense...

Yzerman won't make this trade. It's a bad rumor with no substance.

4 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I am actually trying to look at it from both sides: reasons for it, reasons against it. I don't just make snap judgments. I actually try to rationalize it before taking a side. Those of you who are against it have made your arguments for why you wouldn't do it. I am simply approaching it from the other side. Looking for reasons why it could work, reasons why SY may want to make such a trade.

You can try to rationalize it all you want. Taking on that much cap space for such a little return makes no sense for a team in the position the Red Wings are currently in.

Yzerman would not want to make such a bad trade helping out a divisional rival.

4 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Would I personally take on both contracts with only a 1st round pick as compensation? No. But there's nothing wrong with trying to understand why, if Yzerman makes such a trade, he might be making it.

You would not make this trade. I would not make this trade. No Red Wings fan would make this trade. But Yzerman might? 

4 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Again. The Wings are still getting 2 very good forwards. They will need to sign vets to fill the roster after this season anyway. Obviously SY would not sign either of those guys to contracts of that dollar amount or term in free agency. So is the 1st round pick worth the small overpayment and extra year or 2 on the contract? That's really the question here.

Johnson and Killorn are not "very good" forwards. They're average, past their prime forwards on bad contracts, that are only going to look worse over the next couple seasons.

Yes, that's the question, and we've all answered it, including you. No one here is saying under no circumstance should Yzerman trade for Johnson and / or Killorn. In fact, pretty much everyone agrees that Yzerman should trade for one or both. However, most everyone agrees that a 1st round pick isn't near enough compensation. It's not even close.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

Yeah. There's so many other things people are talking about in here. Silly me for trying to take a trade rumor and reason on it from a different point of view. I'll try to be more narrow minded from now on.

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yeah. There's so many other things people are talking about in here. Silly me for trying to take a trade rumor and reason on it from a different point of view. I'll try to be more narrow minded from now on.

You think people are narrow minded because they shoot down a bad trade rumor? Step off your pedestal for a second. Maybe we've all thought about the trade, and the cons far outweigh the pros, which you've even admitted yourself.

I get that there's not much to talk about right now, and it's fine to discuss trade rumors, but why try to justify the really bad ones? It's not going to happen. No Red Wings fan would want it to happen (including you), so just move on.

[LeftWinger 4,959]

I'd be ok with it. There is always a TDL plan to re-dump these guys for even more assets, then even if they cannot dump 1 or both, they will most definitely be left unprotected in the expansion draft. Neither player NEEDS a protect (no NMC) and you would think that Seattle would ****** one of them up instead of a Givani Smith or Svech.  So lets say we get a 1st along with these two, then you deal then at the TDL for more, or you leave them unprotected and possibly lose one. Then again, at the expansion draft, there is always the deal that trades the player to Seattle as well. That would count as our loss in the draft.

[daniel1 32]

Killorn is 31 and last season recorded 26/23/49 in 68 games. He's been a solid playoff performer throughout his career despite not getting top line minutes very often and his 49 points last season were a career high despite only playing in 68 games. He has 3 years left on his contract with a cap hit of 4.45mil per year. He also has a MNTC that allows him to submit a 16 team list to the Bolts

---

I guess I'm seeing a little more value in Killorn here than others are. His G/A/P totals last year pro-rated to an entire season would be 31 goals, 28 assists, and 59 points. He's defensively sound with good leadership qualities (wears an "A" for TB), and can play a two-way game even killing a few penalties. He's only 31 and he's only got 3 years left on his contract which would make him 34 when it's up, it's also a very reasonable $4.4m AAV for a potential 30 goal scorer that can kill penalties and wore an "A" for a Cup championship team. I would have to believe that a team chasing the cup at the trade deadline would be interested. Especially so since we don't have anything really tied up in him in terms of investment or history and wouldn't need to ask for the moon in return. Throw in the fact that he's a proven playoff performer (51pts in 91 games with TB), and I could see him being worth a 1st rounder or at least two 2nd rounders as 30 goal scorers aren't cheap to add at the trade deadline. 

To give a recent similar yet lesser player comparison, last year the Canucks acquired forward Tyler Toffoli from the Los Angeles Kings for forward Tim Schaller, a second-round pick, a fourth round pick if he re-signed with Vancouver, and forward prospect Tyler Madden. That's a pretty good haul going back to LA for a guy that only scored 16, 24, and 13 goals in the preceding 3 seasons with the Kings. 

I would also think that Killorn would be somebody that the Krakken would be interested in as I'm sure they would like to try to duplicate the early success that Vegas had and get into the playoffs in their 1st season. Yes, I'm assuming that Killorn would have a decent season this year but his success last year is not a one-off, he's averaged 40 points per season over the last 7 years without ever being a 1st line player for any extended time with TB. Also, this season is going to be a reduced schedule so fatigue shouldn't be a factor down the stretch. He'll also get plenty of ice time and 2nd PP unit time so I think it's reasonable to assume he should come close to last year's numbers if he has a decent center... like Tyler Johnson maybe? 

I can't make as strong of a case for Johnson as his contract is more money and more term, but I still think he would be a heck of an upgrade over Neilson or Fillpula; both of which are likely gone next year anyways. He did score 29 goals in 2019 though and is a year younger than Killorn. I think he kinda got shoved down the depth chart in TB too when guys like Kucherov, Point, Cerelli, and Palat came along. Last year he only averaged 14min of ice time per game, which sounds a lot like 3rd line minutes. I would have to think that he would instantly become the 2nd line center on the Wings and should see a rise in his TOI and points, which would make him even more valuable to a contender at the trade deadline. Wouldn't it be fun to see what a Killorn-Johnson-Zadina line could do? Even if it was only for a few months...

I guess I am a bit biased as I've always liked both players for their production and on-ice attributes and would have even done a straight up hockey deal for Killorn. Now that it looks like any potential deal would be a salary dump deal that would include one or more picks and maybe even a top-end goalie prospect like Alnefelt, per the latest rumour imaginings from the Hockey Writers link below, I'm very hopeful that this can be a short and long term deal that speeds up the rebuild. Imagine getting Killorn/Johnson/1st rd pick/prospect for next to nothing and then flipping both Johnson and Killorn for more picks at the trade deadline?

With the way that GM's act like drunken sailors at the trade deadline if they have injuries or feel like they need that "one" player to push them over the top it's not a stretch to think that Killorn could fetch a 1st rounder + a prospect this year, and Johnson could net us a 2nd rounder + prospect next year when he would only have 2 more years remaining on his contract. Which could mean the Wings end up with two 1st round picks, a 2nd round pick, and at least 2 decent prospects for basically.... nothing. 

Or just trade Killorn and expose Johnson to the expansion draft, the Krakken will have lots of money to throw around lol. 

   (https://thehockeywriters.com/red-wings-lightning-mock-trade/?fbclid=IwAR0vRlbfxXf-YCuJcDALxbMCPgzpwgy-ZVxdRBdwujNIUno914XHJIsUnx0

[krsmith17 7,191]

52 minutes ago, daniel1 said:

I guess I'm seeing a little more value in Killorn here than others are. His G/A/P totals last year pro-rated to an entire season would be 31 goals, 28 assists, and 59 points. He's defensively sound with good leadership qualities (wears an "A" for TB), and can play a two-way game even killing a few penalties. He's only 31 and he's only got 3 years left on his contract which would make him 34 when it's up, it's also a very reasonable $4.4m AAV for a potential 30 goal scorer that can kill penalties and wore an "A" for a Cup championship team. I would have to believe that a team chasing the cup at the trade deadline would be interested. Especially so since we don't have anything really tied up in him in terms of investment or history and wouldn't need to ask for the moon in return. Throw in the fact that he's a proven playoff performer (51pts in 91 games with TB), and I could see him being worth a 1st rounder or at least two 2nd rounders as 30 goal scorers aren't cheap to add at the trade deadline. 

To give a recent similar yet lesser player comparison, last year the Canucks acquired forward Tyler Toffoli from the Los Angeles Kings for forward Tim Schaller, a second-round pick, a fourth round pick if he re-signed with Vancouver, and forward prospect Tyler Madden. That's a pretty good haul going back to LA for a guy that only scored 16, 24, and 13 goals in the preceding 3 seasons with the Kings. 

I would also think that Killorn would be somebody that the Krakken would be interested in as I'm sure they would like to try to duplicate the early success that Vegas had and get into the playoffs in their 1st season. Yes, I'm assuming that Killorn would have a decent season this year but his success last year is not a one-off, he's averaged 40 points per season over the last 7 years without ever being a 1st line player for any extended time with TB. Also, this season is going to be a reduced schedule so fatigue shouldn't be a factor down the stretch. He'll also get plenty of ice time and 2nd PP unit time so I think it's reasonable to assume he should come close to last year's numbers if he has a decent center... like Tyler Johnson maybe? 

I can't make as strong of a case for Johnson as his contract is more money and more term, but I still think he would be a heck of an upgrade over Neilson or Fillpula; both of which are likely gone next year anyways. He did score 29 goals in 2019 though and is a year younger than Killorn. I think he kinda got shoved down the depth chart in TB too when guys like Kucherov, Point, Cerelli, and Palat came along. Last year he only averaged 14min of ice time per game, which sounds a lot like 3rd line minutes. I would have to think that he would instantly become the 2nd line center on the Wings and should see a rise in his TOI and points, which would make him even more valuable to a contender at the trade deadline. Wouldn't it be fun to see what a Killorn-Johnson-Zadina line could do? Even if it was only for a few months...

I guess I am a bit biased as I've always liked both players for their production and on-ice attributes and would have even done a straight up hockey deal for Killorn. Now that it looks like any potential deal would be a salary dump deal that would include one or more picks and maybe even a top-end goalie prospect like Alnefelt, per the latest rumour imaginings from the Hockey Writers link below, I'm very hopeful that this can be a short and long term deal that speeds up the rebuild. Imagine getting Killorn/Johnson/1st rd pick/prospect for next to nothing and then flipping both Johnson and Killorn for more picks at the trade deadline?

With the way that GM's act like drunken sailors at the trade deadline if they have injuries or feel like they need that "one" player to push them over the top it's not a stretch to think that Killorn could fetch a 1st rounder + a prospect this year, and Johnson could net us a 2nd rounder + prospect next year when he would only have 2 more years remaining on his contract. Which could mean the Wings end up with two 1st round picks, a 2nd round pick, and at least 2 decent prospects for basically.... nothing. 

Or just trade Killorn and expose Johnson to the expansion draft, the Krakken will have lots of money to throw around lol.

I think it's a tad unrealistic to expect Johnson or Killorn to produce at the same clip with the worst team in the league as they did with the best team in the league. They would both likely see a significant dip in production going from the powerhouse Lightning to the bottom feeder Red Wings. I wouldn't expect anything more than 0.5 point per game players at best.

With the flat cap, I don't see any top teams being able, let alone willing, to give up premium assets for middle six forwards at the trade deadline. They're also not likely to acquire these players with 2-3 years term remaining. If we were to trade for Killorn and Johnson, I think both would be Red Wings for the next 2-3 years respectively (unless one were picked up by Seattle).

The Toffoli comparison kind of falls apart when you realize the contending team was acquiring, and the bottom feeder team was giving up the player. That's the opposite of this situation. If we had a Johnson and / or Killorn, and Tampa had cap space, I'm sure they'd be willing to give up similar pieces as Vancouver did. That's simply not the case though.

I'd do a straight up hockey trade for Killorn as well, if we were in a position to do so (aka a contender). Making that sort of trade now would be counterproductive.

Tampa need to shed salary cap space. Detroit do not need to add any more players. They do not need to add salary. If Tampa want to trade either of these players to Detroit, it should come at a premium. A late 1st round pick isn't that, for that much AAV and term. Don't do any team, let alone a divisional rival, and current Stanley Cup champion team, any favors.

Yzerman has made it abundantly clear through his moves this offseason and in his press conferences, that he does not want to handcuff the team with long term contracts. He wants cap flexibility. It's a very smart way to navigate a rebuild. Adding both Johnson and Killorn would go against everything he's done and said up to this point. The only way he does it, is if it's a massive boost to the rebuild. Again, a late 1st round pick just isn't it in my opinion.

[LeftWinger 4,959]

36 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I think it's a tad unrealistic to expect Johnson or Killorn to produce at the same clip with the worst team in the league as they did with the best team in the league.

Ah! But here is what you are forgetting.  The Wings now have a few better players up front that weren't there on the "worst" team. You could play them like this:

 

Killorn - Johnson - Ryan

or

Killorn - Namestikov - Johnson

Either of those lines would be a nice middle 6.

The better statement would be, it's a tad unrealistic to expect them to produce the same as they did with one of the best coaches in the league as they would be playing for THE worst coach in the league.

Edited December 9, 2020 by LeftWinger

[LeftWinger 4,959]

2 hours ago, daniel1 said:

   (https://thehockeywriters.com/red-wings-lightning-mock-trade/?fbclid=IwAR0vRlbfxXf-YCuJcDALxbMCPgzpwgy-ZVxdRBdwujNIUno914XHJIsUnx0

Quote

TW: To recap, the Lightning trade Johnson, Killorn, Alnefelt, their 2021 first-round pick, and their 2022 second rounder to Detroit for a 2021 fourth-round choice. Deal?

I don't see where Yzerman does NOT do the above proposed deal from the article.

Quote

EH: That’s an interesting scenario. In a package deal, a fair deal would be the first-round pick, Volkov, plus another prospect like Taylor Raddysh or a 2022 second-round pick. There’s a market for Killorn, given his production and reasonable cap hit, so we can’t offer much more in addition to what’s already on the table.

or this one. The "package" is Killorn and Johnson, along with what's listed above...for a FOURTH ROUND PICK! C'mon man! There is no other world where we could make a deal like this or the former. Take advantage of this anomaly of a year!

 

Here is a way to look at it, both Helm and Glenny are UFA at the end of the season, would this team be better re-signing them or having Killorn and Johnson in their place? Or any combo of one or the other...

Edited December 9, 2020 by LeftWinger