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Johnson, Killorn, and a 1st?

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8 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

You dont take on two 30ish forwards for 10 million cap space for no compensation ... this isnt someone giving barzal for free

Taking johnson and killorn does nothing to help build our future team

Literally nobody has EVER said we'd take them on for nothing.

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3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

To be fair, a late 2nd round pick, for that much cap space, is basically nothing, and someone has suggested that...

A 2nd round pick is a very valuable asset. It's only "nothing" when saying it's "nothing" supports an argument you're making.

Edited by kipwinger

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23 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You keep saying there's "risk" in this. I don't see it. Having two good albeit overpaid players on your team in 3 years when you've got LOADS of cap space zero risk. You have still failed to adequately explain what having these two guys on the roster instead of Helm, Filppula, Nielsen, Erne, or Glendening is going to hurt. In what way does it negatively impact the roster?

Who says they're still going to be good in 2-3 years? That's no guarantee. I'd bet against it. How is Nielsen hurting the team? He's not really, when looking at the big picture, but it still sucks having him on the roster.

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

A 2nd round pick is a very valuable asset. It's only "nobody" when saying it's "nothing" supports an argument you're making.

You think the 62nd overall pick is a "very valuable" asset? It has value, sure, but it's far from "very valuable"...

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15 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

You dont take on two 30ish forwards for 10 million cap space for no compensation ... this isnt someone giving barzal for free

Taking johnson and killorn does nothing to help build our future team

Yzerman has taken on a number of 30 year old players during this rebuild to almost universal acclaim.

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26 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Who says they're still going to be good in 2-3 years? That's no guarantee. I'd bet against it. How is Nielsen hurting the team? He's not really, when looking at the big picture, but it still sucks having him on the roster.

You think the 62nd overall pick is a "very valuable" asset? It has value, sure, but it's far from "very valuable"...

Okay, so there's no risk then? You just wouldn't like it. Got it.

Who says it's the 62nd overall pick? There's no guarantee. It's really hard to repeat. Could be a much lower pick. You're presuming (for the sake of argument) the worse case scenario, which is odd because when you talk about things like player development you always presume the best case scenario for the guys you like and the worst case for guys you don't (like you did above with Johnson and Killorn). It's almost like you pick and choose when to be optimistic/pessimistic based on how convenient it is for your argument. Something tells me you'd bend over backward defending the value of 2nd round picks if it was for a player you wanted.

Edited by kipwinger

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20 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

A 2nd round pick is a very valuable asset. It's only "nothing" when saying it's "nothing" supports an argument you're making.

Yes a 60th pick for taking on 10 million cap space is very valuable

 

18 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Yzerman has taken on a number of 30 year old players during this rebuild to almost universal acclaim.

At a free price and didnt have to give up any assets or lock them up to 3-4yrs but ok whatever you say

guess he missed the memo johnson was on waivers and could been had for free

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3 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Yes a 60th pick for taking on 10 million cap space is very valuable

 

At a free price and didnt have to give up any assets or lock them up to 3-4yrs but ok whatever you say

guess he missed the memo johnson was on waivers and could been had for free

Wait, now you think Yzerman is going to GIVE UP assets for Johnson and Killorn and only get the 60th pick in return?  Lol. That's absurd. Nobody, including KRsmith (who also hates the idea), has stated anything of the sort. It's absurd. You're literally making up things that nobody has said and then arguing against your own made up premise.

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23 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Okay, so there's no risk then? You just wouldn't like it. Got it.

Who says it's the 62nd overall pick? There's no guarantee. It's really hard to repeat. Could be a much lower pick. You're presuming (for the sake of argument) the worse case scenario, which is odd because when you talk about things like player development you always presume the best case scenario for the guys you like and the worst case for guys you don't (like you did above with Johnson and Killorn). It's almost like you pick and choose when to be optimistic/pessimistic based on how convenient it is for your argument. Something tells me you'd bend over backward defending the value of 2nd round picks if it was for a player you wanted.

I wouldn't like it. And neither would Yzerman or the deal would have been done by now.

You're actually trying to compare being optimistic about an upcoming prospect and pessimistic about an aging veteran? Okay...

Tampa aren't going anywhere. They will be a top 4 team again next season, unless they have some major injuries. Would it make you feel better if I said 59th-62nd overall?

Myself and @nyqvististhefuture have debated the value of 2nd round picks several times. I've always been of the opinion that they're not as valuable as people make them out to be, especially beyond 50.

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9 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I wouldn't like it. And neither would Yzerman or the deal would have been done by now.

You're actually trying to compare being optimistic about an upcoming prospect and pessimistic about an aging veteran? Okay...

Tampa aren't going anywhere. They will be a top 4 team again next season, unless they have some major injuries. Would it make you feel better if I said 59th-62nd overall?

Myself and @nyqvististhefuture have debated the value of 2nd round picks several times. I've always been of the opinion that they're not as valuable as people make them out to be, especially beyond 50.

You said it was risky. It isn't. Glad you're acknowledging as much. But now you're saying you don't like it, which is apparent and also completely irrelevant. The fact is that Tampa is going to have to trade two players to get cap compliant. Given the fiscal landscape they're going to sweaten the pot to do so. Turning up your nose at free (good player) and picks, when those players have ZERO risk, is short sighted.

I'm not sure why you'd assume Killorn, who just had a career year, would fall off a cliff in the next three years given standard aging curves. You keep comparing them to Nielsen which is funny because even he was scoring in the mid-30 pts range when he was 33-34 years old (the age Killorn and Johnson will be at the end of their contracts). So even your "worst case scenario" isn't actually that bad.

Tampa got demolished two years ago in the first round and came within one game of getting bounced in the first round again by the same team. Then they struggled to beat a Dallas team that nobody thought was a legitimate contender. They're not some dominant dynasty team.

Feel free to have all the opinions you want about 2nd round picks. Its a fact that NHL GMs want those picks badly and that those picks are routinely used to A) trade up to get better players, B) turn into very good players themselves (Bertuzzi, Hronek).

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24 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You said it was risky. It isn't. Glad you're acknowledging as much. But now you're saying you don't like it, which is apparent and also completely irrelevant. The fact is that Tampa is going to have to trade two players to get cap compliant. Given the fiscal landscape they're going to sweaten the pot to do so. Turning up your nose at free (good player) and picks, when those players have ZERO risk, is short sighted.

I'm not sure why you'd assume Killorn, who just had a career year, would fall off a cliff in the next three years given standard aging curves. You keep comparing them to Nielsen which is funny because even he was scoring in the mid-30 pts range when he was 33-34 years old (the age Killorn and Johnson will be at the end of their contracts). So even your "worst case scenario" isn't actually that bad.

Tampa got demolished two years ago in the first round and came within one game of getting bounced in the first round again by the same team. Then they struggled to beat a Dallas team that nobody thought was a legitimate contender. They're not some dominant dynasty team.

Feel free to have all the opinions you want about 2nd round picks. Its a fact that NHL GMs want those picks badly and that those picks are routinely used to A) trade up to get better players, B) turn into very good players themselves (Bertuzzi, Hronek).

There is risk involved in any trade or signing. To say otherwise is foolish. The risk goes up significantly the older the player, the higher the cap hit, and the longer the term. I don't see much risk in Killorn, but there is definitely risk in Johnson. Not in the sense that we won't be able to sign free agents or make any other trades, but a good GM and owner will never want bad contracts on the books. If Yzerman is taking on that risk, I'm sure he will want to be properly compensated.

There are free, better players available in free agency. There are also better assets than a late 1st or 2nd round pick available for taking on worse players on shorter term contracts (less risk).

I keep comparing them to Nielsen? No I don't. number9 was the first to bring him up, and I agreed that Johnson could be viewed as a similarly bad contract in a few years. 

If Yzerman wants a 2nd round pick for taking on two huge contracts, he'd do it. Let's wait and see. My bet is, either a deal involving both doesn't get done or if it does get done, it's for significantly more than a 1st round pick.

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11 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

There is risk involved in any trade or signing. To say otherwise is foolish. The risk goes up significantly the older the player, the higher the cap hit, and the longer the term. I don't see much risk in Killorn, but there is definitely risk in Johnson. Not in the sense that we won't be able to sign free agents or make any other trades, but a good GM and owner will never want bad contracts on the books. If Yzerman is taking on that risk, I'm sure he will want to be properly compensated.

There are free, better players available in free agency. There are also better assets than a late 1st or 2nd round pick available for taking on worse players on shorter term contracts (less risk).

I keep comparing them to Nielsen? No I don't. number9 was the first to bring him up, and I agreed that Johnson could be viewed as a similarly bad contract in a few years. 

If Yzerman wants a 2nd round pick for taking on two huge contracts, he'd do it. Let's wait and see. My bet is, either a deal involving both doesn't get done or if it does get done, it's for significantly more than a 1st round pick.

Every single team in the NHL has one or two bad contracts on the books. There is NO risk in that, especially for the Red Wings. In some cases having bad contracts is actually an advantage.

There are no free agents who are going to get Yzerman additional prospects and picks in the acquisition. None.

You've compared this Killorn/Johnson situation to Nielsen about 3 times in the last two days. Do I really need to prove it or will you just admit you've made that (silly) comparison a number of times?

Neither I nor @Wait&Sneed ever said the return for Killorn and Johnson WOULD be a 2nd. We both said that IF that were the only return we'd still do the deal because in addition to the pick (which is pretty) valuable you'd be getting solid, Cup winning, productive, veteran players to replace the sh*tbags we'll be losing to attrition over the next two years without ANY negative impact on our ability to sign players or fit under the cap.

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8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Every single team in the NHL has one or two bad contracts on the books. There is NO risk in that, especially for the Red Wings. In some cases having bad contracts is actually an advantage.

There are no free agents who are going to get Yzerman additional prospects and picks in the acquisition. None.

You've compared this Killorn/Johnson situation to Nielsen about 3 times in the last two days. Do I really need to prove it or will you just admit you've made that (silly) comparison a number of times?

Neither I nor @Wait&Sneed ever said the return for Killorn and Johnson WOULD be a 2nd. We both said that IF that were the only return we'd still do the deal because in addition to the pick (which is pretty) valuable you'd be getting solid, Cup winning, productive, veteran players to replace the sh*tbags we'll be losing to attrition over the next two years without ANY negative impact on our ability to sign players or fit under the cap.

LOL okay so now bad contracts can be an advantage. Got it. I'm learning so much...

Of course no free agents will net a return in the acquisition, but there are some that would net a much bigger return in the eventual trade deadline trade.

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6 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Future assets that will be ready in 7-8 yrs if they even make it? We’re rebuilding now 

isn't acquiring draft picks a fundamental part of rebuilding? Aren't you also the one always advocating for trading the whole roster for draft picks and then acquiring players only to trade them for draft picks? 

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19 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Wait, now you think Yzerman is going to GIVE UP assets for Johnson and Killorn and only get the 60th pick in return?  Lol. That's absurd. Nobody, including KRsmith (who also hates the idea), has stated anything of the sort. It's absurd. You're literally making up things that nobody has said and then arguing against your own made up premise.

I Never said that , i was being sarcastic saying yzerman would take on 10 mill contracts for tampa’s 60th pick 

19 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I wouldn't like it. And neither would Yzerman or the deal would have been done by now.

You're actually trying to compare being optimistic about an upcoming prospect and pessimistic about an aging veteran? Okay...

Tampa aren't going anywhere. They will be a top 4 team again next season, unless they have some major injuries. Would it make you feel better if I said 59th-62nd overall?

Myself and @nyqvististhefuture have debated the value of 2nd round picks several times. I've always been of the opinion that they're not as valuable as people make them out to be, especially beyond 50.

I still believe the more 2nd round picks the better chances of us landing good players and seems we might have hit on a few last few drafts with any luck

but no chance in hell i take on 10 million dollars of contracts for 3-4 yrs to get a 60th pick

18 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Why pick up Johnson for free on waivers when you can force a high end pick out of Brisebois for him?

Isnt that what yzermans doing? You or whoever it is here seem to think we should take johnson and killorn both for just a 2nd rounder which is ludicrous 

15 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

isn't acquiring draft picks a fundamental part of rebuilding? Aren't you also the one always advocating for trading the whole roster for draft picks and then acquiring players only to trade them for draft picks? 

We’re rebuilding now so we need assets now to help the process to get going ... larkin will be 31-32 when those assets would be ready

I mentioned getting hoffman etc.. to flip at the deadline for picks now not get a johnson and wait till hes on his last yr 4 yrs from now to then flip him 

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18 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryan said:

This doesn't make much sense to me. Assuming Kucherov isn't out for the entire season, they should still be looking to make a move or two now. Otherwise, they wait until he's ready to come off LTIR, and they're in an even worse situation... I think it would be a lot harder to shed $10M in cap space mid season, then it would be now, before the season starts and there are still a bunch of players left unsigned...

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34 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryan said:

 

Sketchy..... They won their cup, it's a short season, this stinks of rotten soup. Expect other teams in the cap crunch to do the same.

Turn our attention west. I'll take Brandon Sutter, Jett Woo, 2021 1st.

Edited by LeftWinger

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6 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Sketchy..... They won their cup, it's a short season, this stinks of rotten soup. Expect other teams in the cap crunch to do the same.

Turn our attention west. I'll take Brandon Sutter, Jett Woo, 2021 1st.

Brandon Sutter doesn't get you close to that. I don't even see him as much of a salary dump to be honest. 31 year old 3rd line center, capable of 30-40 points. Sure he may be a little overpaid, but it's only for one more season. That doesn't get you a 1st round pick, plus a prospect. Take on two years, $6M of Loui Eriksson and you might get close to that... maybe.

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3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Brandon Sutter doesn't get you close to that. I don't even see him as much of a salary dump to be honest. 31 year old 3rd line center, capable of 30-40 points. Sure he may be a little overpaid, but it's only for one more season. That doesn't get you a 1st round pick, plus a prospect. Take on two years, $6M of Loui Eriksson and you might get close to that... maybe.

forgot about Eriksson... How about taking Eriksson and Edler off their hands for Woo and a 1st?

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18 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

forgot about Eriksson... How about taking Eriksson and Edler off their hands for Woo and a 1st?

The Canucks only need to shed approximately $1M in cap space. I don't think they'll look to trade two contracts, unless they're going after a Hoffman in free agency, or have a big trade in the works (doubtful at this point). I'm not that high on Woo personally. I'd rather stick to picks in return, or Podkolzin or Hoglander...

Edited by krsmith17

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2 hours ago, diehardredwingsfan58 said:

How convenient for Tampa all of a sudden knew they'd an ace up their sleeve.

Blues have cap problems , steen retires then its the islanders and boychuck and now this . Its amazing how all these teams are miraculously saved just prior to the season starting

 

i dont buy all this crap . Tampa can easily make the playoffs without kucherov most of the season , keep everyone intact and keep all the picks and prospects theyd have had to trade away 

Maybe we can get komorov off the islanders now for a 2nd + at this point , seems like another blown opportunity with all this cap space we have to get picks/prospects back 

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