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Johnson, Killorn, and a 1st?

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7 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I don't see where Yzerman does NOT do the above proposed deal from the article.

or this one. The "package" is Killorn and Johnson, along with what's listed above...for a FOURTH ROUND PICK! C'mon man! There is no other world where we could make a deal like this or the former. Take advantage of this anomaly of a year!

 

Here is a way to look at it, both Helm and Glenny are UFA at the end of the season, would this team be better re-signing them or having Killorn and Johnson in their place? Or any combo of one or the other...

If he would do a deal involving Johnson and Killorn, he must be really convinced of Johnson. The three years of Killorn are ok, but the 4 years of Johnson would be too much for my liking, So if SY does it, it´s because he might know more about the players than we do...

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26 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Ah! But here is what you are forgetting.  The Wings now have a few better players up front that weren't there on the "worst" team. You could play them like this:

Killorn - Johnson - Ryan

or

Killorn - Namestikov - Johnson

Either of those lines would be a nice middle 6.

The better statement would be, it's a tad unrealistic to expect them to produce the same as they did with one of the best coaches in the league as they would be playing for THE worst coach in the league.

I'm as excited as anyone with the additions Yzerman made this summer. But make no mistake, this is still a bottom 5 team. Do you really want to add two more players that might make us a bottom 10 team, hurt our lottery odds, and not benefit us much (if at all) in the future?

So you think the difference between last year's Red Wings and Lightning is smaller than the difference between Blashill and Cooper? I know you love to hate on Blashill, but he's really not as bad as you and some others like to make him out to be. He's a good, maybe even really good coach with a historically bad roster.

16 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I don't see where Yzerman does NOT do the above proposed deal from the article.

or this one. The "package" is Killorn and Johnson, along with what's listed above...for a FOURTH ROUND PICK! C'mon man! There is no other world where we could make a deal like this or the former. Take advantage of this anomaly of a year!

Literally no one is against trading for Johnson, Killorn or any other salary cap dump. What some of us are against is trading for any of these players without an adequate return.

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21 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I don't see where Yzerman does NOT do the above proposed deal from the article.

or this one. The "package" is Killorn and Johnson, along with what's listed above...for a FOURTH ROUND PICK! C'mon man! There is no other world where we could make a deal like this or the former. Take advantage of this anomaly of a year!

 

Here is a way to look at it, both Helm and Glenny are UFA at the end of the season, would this team be better re-signing them or having Killorn and Johnson in their place? Or any combo of one or the other...

The issue here is the fact that Johnson and Killorn make 1mil or more per season, and have 1-2 more years on their contracts than what you would expect SY to sign (or re-sign) players for in order to fill out his bottom 6 next off-season.

I don't know anything about Alnefelt to know if he's a legit prospect or not. But if he is, and both a 1st and 2nd are coming back as well, that would certainly make it more interesting. Just don't know enough about the guy to know if I would make that deal.

The other question would be if you're expecting Seattle to take one or not. Either one seems exactly like the kind of player they would want for a new franchise. Salary would be less of an issue, they won't have any high dollar contracts to pay out for awhile.

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4 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

The issue here is the fact that Johnson and Killorn make 1mil or more per season, and have 1-2 more years on their contracts than what you would expect SY to sign (or re-sign) players for in order to fill out his bottom 6 next off-season.

Love the passive aggression...

8 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I don't know anything about Alnefelt to know if he's a legit prospect or not. But if he is, and both a 1st and 2nd are coming back as well, that would certainly make it more interesting. Just don't know enough about the guy to know if I would make that deal.

The other question would be if you're expecting Seattle to take one or not. Either one seems exactly like the kind of player they would want for a new franchise. Salary would be less of an issue, they won't have any high dollar contracts to pay out for awhile.

So now it's a 1st, 2nd and a goalie prospect, and you might make the deal?

I agree. That certainly gets the conversation started. I still don't think I'd do it though. Give me one of Johnson or Killorn, and a 1st and 2nd or a high end prospect and I'd consider it.

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33 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm as excited as anyone with the additions Yzerman made this summer. But make no mistake, this is still a bottom 5 team. Do you really want to add two more players that might make us a bottom 10 team, hurt our lottery odds, and not benefit us much (if at all) in the future?

 

The last couple of drafts being in the very bottom hasn't worked out all that well for us. So maybe we move a bit and get some "puck" luck 

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8 minutes ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

The last couple of drafts being in the very bottom hasn't worked out all that well for us. So maybe we move a bit and get some "puck" luck 

I agree. I want us to naturally get better over the next couple seasons, and hopefully we jump 15 spots to win the 2022 draft lottery...

Again though, I'm not against adding a camp dump, but it has to be worth it in terms of future assets coming back.

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Love the passive aggression...

Huh? I don't know what ur talking about. Totally not my intent if it came off that way.

My previous post, that was passive aggressive.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

So now it's a 1st, 2nd and a goalie prospect, and you might make the deal?

Yes. I might. I know nothing about the prospect. Which I admitted to. If it's a good prospect, then yes. If it's a throw-in, no.

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree. That certainly gets the conversation started. I still don't think I'd do it though. Give me one of Johnson or Killorn, and a 1st and 2nd or a high end prospect and I'd consider it.

So you agree. Depending on the value of the prospect, you would consider it. Exactly what I said.

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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32 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yes. I might. I know nothing about the prospect. Which I admitted to. If it's a good prospect, then yes. If it's a throw-in, no.

You went from trying your damndest to justify a trade involving both Johnson and Killorn and only one 1st round pick, to now not sure if you can justify a trade involving Johnson, Killorn, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, and a goalie prospect...

39 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

So you agree. 

What gave it away? Was it when I said "I agree"?

40 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Depending on the value of the prospect, you would consider it. Exactly what I said.

Yes, exactly what I was agreeing with...

Nice to see you've joined us. A 1st round pick is not close to enough in terms of value for taking on two bad contracts...

This conversation could have ended a page ago, but whatever. It's the dead of the offseason, and I was bored.

Any more trade rumors involving the Wings that we can discuss to pass the next couple weeks before training camp?

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You went from trying your damndest to justify a trade involving both Johnson and Killorn and only one 1st round pick, to now not sure if you can justify a trade involving Johnson, Killorn, 1st round pick, 2nd round pick, and a goalie prospect...

What gave it away? Was it when I said "I agree"?

Yes, exactly what I was agreeing with...

Nice to see you've joined us. A 1st round pick is not close to enough in terms of value for taking on two bad contracts...

This conversation could have ended a page ago, but whatever. It's the dead of the offseason, and I was bored.

Any more trade rumors involving the Wings that we can discuss to pass the next couple weeks before training camp?

Um. I said when the compensation was just a first that I wouldn't do it. I haven't come around on anything. My opinion hasn't changed. Perhaps you're not familiar with the concept of analyzing different points of view? Just because I don't agree with something, doesn't mean I shouldn't try to understand and/or rationalize it. Nor does it mean that I shouldn't put out alternate points of view (even if they aren't mine) for the purpose of discussion.

So I guess I shouldn't be allowed to post something unless I am in total agreement with it? Posting something for the sake of argument/discussion isnt allowed in here? When did you decide the rules?

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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34 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Um. I said when the compensation was just a first that I wouldn't do it. I haven't come around on anything. My opinion hasn't changed. Perhaps you're not familiar with the concept of analyzing different points of view? Just because I don't agree with something, doesn't mean I shouldn't try to understand and/or rationalize it. Nor does it mean that I shouldn't put out alternate points of view (even if they aren't mine) for the purpose of discussion.

So I guess I shouldn't be allowed to post something unless I am in total agreement with it? Posting something for the sake of argument/discussion isnt allowed in here? When did you decide the rules?

You said you wouldn't do it after about 3 or 4 posts of you trying to justify why "Yzerman might do it". I'm not sure why you'd try to justify something you disagree with. I'm also not sure why you think Yzerman "might" do something this dumb, when none of us dummies would do something this dumb...

You can analyze different points of view, but why try to justify a point of view that you don't agree with? 

LOL You can post whatever you want. I'm not making any rules. I just think this whole conversation has been a complete waste of time, since you were very clearly disagreeing with me in the beginning, and now all of a sudden you're very clearly agreeing with me.

Anyway, I'm done with this...

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33 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You said you wouldn't do it after about 3 or 4 posts of you trying to justify why "Yzerman might do it". I'm not sure why you'd try to justify something you disagree with. I'm also not sure why you think Yzerman "might" do something this dumb, when none of us dummies would do something this dumb...

You can analyze different points of view, but why try to justify a point of view that you don't agree with? 

LOL You can post whatever you want. I'm not making any rules. I just think this whole conversation has been a complete waste of time, since you were very clearly disagreeing with me in the beginning, and now all of a sudden you're very clearly agreeing with me.

Anyway, I'm done with this...

Nope. Feel free to repost anything I said. Nowhere did I say I agree with the trade, nor did I at anytime say that Yzerman SHOULD do it. It's not there.

The proposal was mentioned. You and others gave perfectly valid reasons why you didn't agree with it. While not as vehemently opposed to it, and choosing to remain more open minded about it, I agreed with that viewpoint.

The thing is, if the proposal had any validity to it, there would have to be some rationality as to why SY would even entertain such a trade, let alone pull the trigger. What's wrong with exploring that? What's wrong with trying to understand why Yzerman WOULD do it, even if we don't agree with it? What's wrong with creating a debate at a time when there is very little else to discuss?

No one else seemed to be offended by this, I don't understand why you seemed to be. 

As hard as I tried, I couldn't come up with any compelling reasons to change your opinion, or anyone else's, presumably. It didn't change mine either. That's fine. That doesn't make it wrong to discuss it.

 

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7 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Nope. Feel free to repost anything I said. Nowhere did I say I agree with the trade, nor did I at anytime say that Yzerman SHOULD do it. It's not there.

What are you talking about? I never said you said you agree with the trade. I said you were trying to justify the trade. Which you were. I also never said you said Yzerman "SHOULD" make the trade. I said you said Yzerman "might" make the trade. Which you did.

7 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

The proposal was mentioned. You and others gave perfectly valid reasons why you didn't agree with it. While not as vehemently opposed to it, and choosing to remain more open minded about it, I agreed with that viewpoint.

Again, assuming everyone that doesn't agree, are closed minded. How very closed minded of you...

7 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

The thing is, if the proposal had any validity to it, there would have to be some rationality as to why SY would even entertain such a trade, let alone pull the trigger.

The thing is, the "proposal" never had any validity. It was a bad rumor, written by a nobody writer (Shug McSween - Penguins blogger), with no credible sources. There is no rationality as to why Yzerman would entertain such a trade. I'm sure Yzerman has talked to BriseBois about a trade involving one of Johnson or Killorn, but I highly doubt the trade being discussed would ever come even remotely close to what Yzerman would accept.

7 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

What's wrong with exploring that?

There's nothing wrong with exploring the trade rumor. There is something wrong, in my opinion, with trying to justify such an awful trade rumor. But hey, you do you.

7 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

What's wrong with trying to understand why Yzerman WOULD do it, even if we don't agree with it?

Again, Yzerman WOULDN'T do it.

7 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

What's wrong with creating a debate at a time when there is very little else to discuss?

Nothing wrong with debating it. It probably never should have lasted this long, but whatever... We're all bored...

7 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

No one else seemed to be offended by this, I don't understand why you seemed to be. 

I'm not offended. I just don't get it. I'm sure you agreed with the rumor to some extent in the beginning. Why else would you spend so much time trying to justify a nothing rumor?

We got a 2nd round pick (likely around 40-45th overall) for taking on one year at $5.7M of Marc Staal. Why would we only get a 1st round pick (likely around 28-31st overall) for TWO big money, long term contracts? It makes zero sense.

7 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

As hard as I tried, I couldn't come up with any compelling reasons to change your opinion, or anyone else's, presumably. It didn't change mine either. That's fine. That doesn't make it wrong to discuss it.

So this whole debate has been an attempt to change minds, including your own? Maybe you should have done what the rest of us did, have the internal debate, and come to the same conclusion, rather than spending two days and two pages trying to justify an unjustifiable trade rumor...

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22 minutes ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

if it matters I appreciate the going back and forth on this...Gives me something to read as I drink my morning coffee in December with no hockey. 

It was fun in the beginning. Getting kind of monotonous now though... 

22 minutes ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

Maybe we will see skates on ice in Jan before people implode

Yes please. I would think training camp will start in a few weeks, if their target date of Jan 13th to start the season sticks.

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I guess it would all boil down to is, how much does Yzerman value the players mentioned in the deal. He obviously liked Johnson and Killorn enough to sign them, he didn't draft Alnefelt, so outside of whatever his scouts may have mention in the 2019 draft, he probably doesn't know too much about him. But some seem to think he is a higher end G prospect.  I saw the name Raddysh in the article as well, he was drafted by Yzerman, but in 2016. There may be a reason he hasn't played in the NHL yet, or maybe he just can't crack the lineup.  I am just looking at the assets we'd get in return (in the rumor,) a 1st a 2nd and a prospect. Also foreshadowing that he may be able to swing one, if not both of these players to contenders for even more assets. Depending on how desperate teams are, he may see more 3rd's coming our way, maybe a 2nd if the players were to over achieve this season. The NHL has proven they don't want Detroit anywhere near a #1 overall because they cannot market these big name players in this city. They need these players to go to huge TV markets to attract and keep fans. Detroit isn't losing any fans no time soon, especially with the woes of the other sports in the city. I cannot wait to see Raymond become the gem of the draft, and see Laf fall to the pressure of the NY media and expectations. Not that I wish him a bad career, but I just wish our guy a better one! :lol: I also think when/if Laf doesn't destroy the rest of the NHL, like he is expected to, the media and "fans" will turn on him there.

Speaking of TV, where are we going to watch them this season? FSN was purchased by Disney owned Sinclair, and they have pulled all their stations basically due to not being able to agree to terms. I, for one, have Hulu, and they have pulled from them for sure.  I hope I am not left to just watch 3 or 4 NBC games, that would stink.  I know there are streams out there, but sometimes it's nice to just turn the TV on and change the channel.  Good day everyone!

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9 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

 

Speaking of TV, where are we going to watch them this season? FSN was purchased by Disney owned Sinclair, and they have pulled all their stations basically due to not being able to agree to terms. I, for one, have Hulu, and they have pulled from them for sure.  I hope I am not left to just watch 3 or 4 NBC games, that would stink.  I know there are streams out there, but sometimes it's nice to just turn the TV on and change the channel.  Good day everyone!

Chances are I'll purchase Center Ice again to get my weekly Detroit Red Wing fix...Hopefully there's no contractual issues.

Otherwise I'd suspect NBC Sports will air a handful of games every week...Expect the usual Pens/Caps barrage.

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3 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Chances are I'll purchase Center Ice again to get my weekly Detroit Red Wing fix...Hopefully there's no contractual issues.

Otherwise I'd suspect NBC Sports will air a handful of games every week...Expect the usual Pens/Caps barrage.

ya, I'm only interested in Ken Daniels and Micky Redmond. I am used to watching every Wings game, I don't tune in to other teams. Hopefully something gets hammered out.

Edited by LeftWinger

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I'd do some version of this trade in a heartbeat. Though I'd prefer a top prospect and a 2022 1st personally. At the end of this season Helm, Glendening, Bertuzzi, Hronek, Filppula, Ryan, Gagner, Erne, Staal, Nemeth, Biega, Merrell, Weiss, and Bernier come off the books. That's roughly 46 million dollars in cap space accoring to CapFriendly. Bert, Hronek, and maybe Glendening and Bernier will get new contracts with marginal raises, totally no more than 10 million over and above their collective current cap hits. Killorn and Johnson are another 9 million. You've still got about 27 million dollars to round out the roster, and most of that will come from guys like Ras, Seider, Zadina, Veleno etc. who are all on ELC's. PLUS Killorn and (to a lesser extent) Johnson are actually good, so you can maybe flip them toward the ends of their deals.

Of course you do this if you're getting another 1st and a top prospect. It's a steal. You'd have all the cap flexibility you'd need. You could do everything described above AND sign a top free agent or two. Plus the following year Dekeyser, Nielsen, Namestnikov, and Stecher are UFAs. The first two are unlikely to be brought back and the last two, if brought back, will only get marginal raises.

 

Edited by kipwinger

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19 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Chances are I'll purchase Center Ice again to get my weekly Detroit Red Wing fix...Hopefully there's no contractual issues.

Otherwise I'd suspect NBC Sports will air a handful of games every week...Expect the usual Pens/Caps barrage.

I usually buy Center Ice as it included nhl app so back in the days before CV and I was traveling for work. Pop up NHL.com the Detroit feed hook Mac to hotel TV and watch the games. I guess now its pop my fat arse in my recliner and cast to the TV...LOL 

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To be clear, the initial trade rumor in discussion was Johnson, Killorn and their 2021 1st round pick, which will likely be 28-31st overall. No mention of any other picks or prospects. If Tampa weren't in cap hell, desperate to free up cap space, to re-sign Cirelli and Cernak, that might be close to a decent trade. That's not the case though.

Yzerman is one of only a couple GM's that actually has the cap space, AND an owner (presumably) willing to spend to the cap, to take on BOTH Johnson and Killorn. He holds all the power. BriseBois is at his mercy. That's why, in my opinion, a late 1st round pick, that may or may not pan out, is not close to enough to help out a divisional rival.

Also, saying that Johnson is a "good" player at this point in his career is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. He's 30 years old and will most definitely see a decline in production over the next few years. He was just under half a point per game last season, playing mostly on Cirelli's wing, along with one of Stamkos or Palat. He also played a fair bit on the top line wing, with Point and Kucherov. And he's going to somehow go from the top team in the league to the wrost team in the league, playing with weaker players, and outpace what he did last season? I doubt it.

Johnson is on a very bad contract, which is why he passed through waivers a couple months ago. Killorn is a better player, on a better contract, but it still doesn't make up for the lack of value coming back in my opinion. Include another high pick and / or high end prospect, and I'd at least listen... Otherwise, no thanks!

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2 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Wow, a lot of bad takes in here.

I do this trade. I definitely do this trade.

Primary reason: The picks and/or prospects coming back
We should being doing everything in our power to gain as many of these as we can, including taking bad contracts and bad players. Especially for high value assets like blue chips and 1st or 2nd rounders.

Secondary reason: Killorn and Johnson are actually good players
This isn't like we're getting nice picks in exchange for garbage players like Marc Staal. We're getting nice picks for good players like Killorn and Johnson. How in the heck do you not kiss that gift horse on the mouth when this team needs every ounce of help we can get?

Killorn is a top6 winger who would net 40-50 pts a season for this team for only $4.5 a year. With the contract coming off in 3 seasons with him at 33.

Johnson would instantly be our 2nd line center and net 40-50 pts a season for $5 a year. With the contract coming off in 4 seasons with him at 33.

We not only have the cap room for this, but we have tons more bad contracts coming off the books in those 3-4 seasons, so we can more than afford this. So the team gets better and we get free picks? You'd be a cotton headed ninny muggins not to do this deal...

I'd do:

To TBL: Erne, Gagner
To DET: Johnson, Killorn, 1st, Alnefelt

 

It wouldn't even cost that much.  Plus, they are also talking about a 2022 2nd.

to TPA: 21-4th Round pick, rights to Timashov

to DET: Johnson, Killorn, 21-1st, 22-2nd, Alnefelt (possibly another prospect, Volkov?)

that, IMO is a trade neither should pass on. The options we'll have after this deal is also well worth picking up the cap. Plus, these players make this team better. I, for one, am tired of getting screwed at the draft lottery. I'll take finishing 7-10 and dealing with my odds. Maybe we still finish 1-4, who knows...this draft is D heavy, with another Hughes possibly leading the pack, but there are plenty of high quality available to choose from in the top 10. Here is a December ranking of D in the top 10.

Capture.JPG.26849a95c76486123bd2920273eaf479.JPG

Yzerman may not even be looking at a D. Here is the top 10 December ranking:

Capture.JPG.734043ba2f825c7e45b9b75d76866ef2.JPG

..not that I am turning this into a draft thread, but my point being, if we draft anywhere between 1-10, we will get a great player at any position. Right now, there's even another G in the top 10. I'd definitely be very happy with Hughes at #5 if we ended up there.

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4 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Wow, a lot of bad takes in here.

I do this trade. I definitely do this trade.

Primary reason: The picks and/or prospects coming back
We should being doing everything in our power to gain as many of these as we can, including taking bad contracts and bad players. Especially for high value assets like blue chips and 1st or 2nd rounders.

Secondary reason: Killorn and Johnson are actually good players
This isn't like we're getting nice picks in exchange for garbage players like Marc Staal. We're getting nice picks for good players like Killorn and Johnson. How in the heck do you not kiss that gift horse on the mouth when this team needs every ounce of help we can get?

Killorn is a top6 winger who would net 40-50 pts a season for this team for only $4.5 a year. With the contract coming off in 3 seasons with him at 33.

Johnson would instantly be our 2nd line center and net 40-50 pts a season for $5 a year. With the contract coming off in 4 seasons with him at 33.

We not only have the cap room for this, but we have tons more bad contracts coming off the books in those 3-4 seasons, so we can more than afford this. So the team gets better and we get free picks? You'd be a cotton headed ninny muggins not to do this deal...

I'd do:

To TBL: Erne, Gagner
To DET: Johnson, Killorn, 1st, Alnefelt

 

Is a late 1st and 2nd enough for you to justify that much salary/cap hit for the next 3-4 years on players past their primes? Asking for a friend.

9 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

I like this lineup

By my count x5 teams can currently take both players, and another x3 that could take both players by utilizing demotions and/or waivers, for a total of x8 teams that could take both.

Then there are x8 teams who could take only Johnson, with another x2 who could make said moves to make room for Johnson.

Then there are x9 teams who could take only Killorn, with another x2 who could make said moves to work him in.

So roughly there are about x11 teams who could potentially be in on deals involving these players to relieve Tampa's cap space. Or in other words 1/3 of the league.

In conclusion: Yzerman does not hold all the power. BriseBois is not at his mercy. And you live in a fantasy land.

And none of this even begins to consider salary retention or players going back.

Johnson is a good player. You just don't love his contract. Despite being regulated to the 3rd line for Tampa he was still one of their most productive players per minute of ice time. 5th among forwards. His contract isn't the greatest, but we can more than afford. And we will still be able to afford it in 4 years when it ends, due to the amount of bad contracts we have coming off the books and the shear amount of ELC's that will be on our roster at that time. I doubt it limits our building potential at all.

If I can get more great assets for that... darn tootin' pilgrim I will

Entirely possible that Johnson would not even be on the Wings next season if he's left exposed in the expansion draft.

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