2021 Season

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

and this is exactly why Holland drafted Rasmussen. I certainly hope he turns out to be a well rounded player, but if he is one dimensional (PP player) then I can live without him.

I said at the time that was a bad pick, if he was in fact drafted solely on his ability to play net front on the power-play. You can get those players in the later rounds, and it looks like we may have done just that with Soderblom.

I still think Rasmussen can be a capable 3rd liner, but that's not a great look for a 9th overall pick.

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

re: Svechnikov, I say we trade the kid while he has "potential" value. But that is waning each season.

Svechnikov's value is at an all time low right now. He needs to play this season so we can see what we have in him. Likely another 3rd line winger, but maybe he has a big season and can up his trade value...

[LeftWinger 4,953]

On 1/3/2021 at 3:35 PM, mackel said:

Why wait, when it's readily apparent right now!?!

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by LeftWinger

[Akakabuto 1,749]

4 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

4 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

I fear his time is short here as well. Maybe Yzerman can deal him to a Western Canada team, where is from, and maybe he can ignite some kind of career. I know drafts are crap shoots for the most part, but (I know Holland wanted to dump Pav's salary) most of us, if not all, wished that Holland would've just drafted Chychrun. Here's to hoping that we aren't saying the same thing about Zadina and Hughes 4-5 years from now.

That trade was great because it got us Hronek with that extra pick who is better than Chychrun. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

32 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryan said:

Holy s*** you are a retarded Cholo slappy.. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this point.

Biega and Staal are much better than Cholo. The fact that you can't see that puts in doubt all your (retarded) opinions.

lmao

Just when I thought you couldnt get stupider. Bravo.

Lashoff is better than Cholowski

Please tell me what drugs your using, they're good.

You're a miserable c***. I look forward to you getting banned again...

I'm not at all a Cholowski slappy. If he were traded tomorrow, I wouldn't give a s***. But until he is traded, you play him to see what you have.

A rebuilding team should be playing their 22 year old former 1st round pick, over a 34 year old has-been that his former team literally had to pay to get off their roster and a 32 year old never-has-been that was given away for free. The fact that this is being argued shows how "retarded" you really are. Not that you needed this argument to prove that...

[diehardredwingsfan58 123]

On 1/1/2021 at 10:53 AM, kipwinger said:

That third line. Woof.

Agree, Woof big time.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

That trade was great because it got us Hronek with that extra pick who is better than Chychrun. 

Yep. The Cholowski/Chychrun debate is irrelevant when KH got Hronek out of that deal.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree, but he should still be in the lineup over players like Filppula, Nielsen and Erne in my opinion. Likewise, Cholowski should be in the lineup over players like Staal and Biega. I'd much rather see a young player playing that might be bad, over an older player that is bad... This should be another developmental season. Treat it as such. Playing Rasmussen, Svechnikov and Cholowski over older washed up players should be a priority this season. We need to find out what we have in them, and this is the year to do it.

There are special teams players on every single team in the NHL. Players that are on the team strictly because they can kill penalties or contribute on the power-play.

If you're talking about prime Green in Washington, that's a high bar. If you're talking older Green in Detroit, I think Cholowski could maybe be close to that.

Yes, that is very concerning, but not because they outplayed Cholowski, but because Cholowski outplayed them, and he still got demoted. Probably for the reason you mentioned though. Daley and Biega would have had to clear waivers, and Cholowski was / is waiver exempt.

Please tell me you don't actually think Lashoff was better than Cholowski last season...

Again, those signings and trade likely had nothing to do with Cholowski. Stecher and Merrill should be the Daley and Ericsson replacements (upgrades), and Cholowski should, in my opinion, be the Green replacement. Staal was a trade specifically to acquire a 2nd round pick. I'm sure Yzerman wants some competition in camp, and he shouldn't just hand Cholowski a spot in the lineup. Cholowski should absolutely have to earn it. Hopefully he does.

I can see the similarities, but I'm not going to assume that to be the outcome. None of this is even an argument for Cholowski specifically. It's an argument that we need more offensively capable defensemen. Maybe Cholowski becomes that. Maybe he doesn't. But I think he should be given every opportunity to prove himself, and this is the year to do that.

I agree with playing Svech and Moose in the lineup over Filppula, Nielsen, and Erne. It's time to bring them up full time.

Yes there are special team players, but if you're developing a young D, I want him learning to play in all situations in the AHL, not just on the PP in the NHL.

Yes, I am talking about early Mike Green. That's the kind of offense you have to be able to come close to if you're going to be a defensive liability on the blueline. DRW Green doesn't cut it.

Waivers were irrelevant. Biega and Daley would have cleared anyway. If Cholowski was better, he would have stayed up.

I actually think Lashoff is a very underrated defenseman. If he's on your NHL roster in favor of Cholowski tho, that's scary.

I disagree. SY knows that all of Seider, Lindstrom, and Cholowski are in the system. With Hronek, Nemeth, and DK returning, that only leaves 4 D spots. Stecher, Merriill, and Staal take up 3 of those spots. Seider and Lindstrom are both better than Cholowski IMO. That doesn't leave a spot for him.

He's been given opportunities the last 2 seasons. He's been demoted halfway into the season both times. He doesn't deserve to stay up a 3rd time just because he's young.

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I agree with playing Svech and Moose in the lineup over Filppula, Nielsen, and Erne. It's time to bring them up full time.

So why is it time for them, but not time for Cholowski? Svechnikov wasn't any better than Cholowski last season...

7 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yes there are special team players, but if you're developing a young D, I want him learning to play in all situations in the AHL, not just on the PP in the NHL.

Sure, but he would be playing power-play, which he's already proven to be good at, and 5-on-5 (sheltered minutes). That's not the worst situation to put a young developing defenseman in.

9 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yes, I am talking about early Mike Green. That's the kind of offense you have to be able to come close to if you're going to be a defensive liability on the blueline. DRW Green doesn't cut it.

You're acting as if Cholowski was the only defensive liability on the team last season. He wasn't. Daley and Ericsson were both worse, without providing the offense.

11 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Waivers were irrelevant. Biega and Daley would have cleared anyway. If Cholowski was better, he would have stayed up.

This simply isn't true. Daley, along with Ericsson were two of the 5 worst defensemen in the entire league last season based on just about every metric. Cholowski was much better offensively and also as good or better defensively than both.

Stop assuming that every move the general manager or coach makes, is the right decision. They make bad decisions just like everyone else.

14 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I actually think Lashoff is a very underrated defenseman. If he's on your NHL roster in favor of Cholowski tho, that's scary.

Lashoff is a very good AHL defenseman. If he's on your NHL roster in favor of anyone though, it's scary. Last year's Red Wings were scary... a lot of coaching decisions were scary...

17 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I disagree. SY knows that all of Seider, Lindstrom, and Cholowski are in the system. With Hronek, Nemeth, and DK returning, that only leaves 4 D spots. Stecher, Merriill, and Staal take up 3 of those spots. Seider and Lindstrom are both better than Cholowski IMO. That doesn't leave a spot for him.

Seider is definitely better than Cholowski. Lindstrom is not. Why is it that you think a player that is good defensively, but awful offensively is better than a player that is not so good defensively, but good offensively? I just don't get that mindset. It was the same argument with Ehn, and look where he ended up... Exactly where I said he would end up...

21 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

He's been given opportunities the last 2 seasons. He's been demoted halfway into the season both times. He doesn't deserve to stay up a 3rd time just because he's young.

No one is saying to give him the spot "just because he's young". But he should be given every opportunity to earn that spot over players with no future here, because he is young.

[Buppy 1,720]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

So why is it time for them, but not time for Cholowski? Svechnikov wasn't any better than Cholowski last season...

Sure, but he would be playing power-play, which he's already proven to be good at, and 5-on-5 (sheltered minutes). That's not the worst situation to put a young developing defenseman in.

You're acting as if Cholowski was the only defensive liability on the team last season. He wasn't. Daley and Ericsson were both worse, without providing the offense.

This simply isn't true. Daley, along with Ericsson were two of the 5 worst defensemen in the entire league last season based on just about every metric. Cholowski was much better offensively and also as good or better defensively than both.

Stop assuming that every move the general manager or coach makes, is the right decision. They make bad decisions just like everyone else.

Lashoff is a very good AHL defenseman. If he's on your NHL roster in favor of anyone though, it's scary. Last year's Red Wings were scary... a lot of coaching decisions were scary...

Seider is definitely better than Cholowski. Lindstrom is not. Why is it that you think a player that is good defensively, but awful offensively is better than a player that is not so good defensively, but good offensively? I just don't get that mindset. It was the same argument with Ehn, and look where he ended up... Exactly where I said he would end up...

No one is saying to give him the spot "just because he's young". But he should be given every opportunity to earn that spot over players with no future here, because he is young.

Gone for so long and the conversations have hardly changed at all. 

Cholowski's demotion last year, much like the year before, was likely to allow him to develop against a more appropriate level of competition. He wasn't effective in the NHL; playing in the AHL was better for him. Considering he really didn't improve at all from his first year to his second, and now hasn't played in 10 months, I wouldn't expect much this year. Maybe he'll surprise, but I won't hold my breath.

He has not been good offensively. 24 points in 88 games. Not even that good in the AHL. 25 points in 55 games. Dekeyser level offense .69 P/60 last year with 2:40/g PP time. For comparison, Daley (who you call one of the worst in the league) with less than a minute PP time per game scored .63 P/60. Staal and Stecher both produced better without any PP time worth mentioning. At even strength, Nemeth, Biega and Merrill all produced more. 

You made the same arguments about Smith and Sproul. Like once you label a player an offensive defenseman you'll say he's "good offensively" no matter how he performs. If he was actually good, he wouldn't have any problem beating out the likes of Daley or Biega or Merrill. That's why Hronek has stuck despite his own somewhat weak defense.

You like to say "be given every opportunity", but what you really mean is that he should be given a spot no matter what. You know there's nothing Staal, Merrill, Biega, or Lindstrom (or likely even Nemeth, Stecher, or Dekeyser) could do that would make you believe they deserve a spot over Cholowski. And you're against adding anyone you think could beat him out, like Vatanen. We can gift him a spot next year, no need to do so now when he's still waiver exempt. 

Granted, Vatanen isn't good enough to make a big deal about, but I do think we should make every reasonable effort to improve as much as we can. I personally think a major factor in last year being such an embarrassment was Yzerman writing-off the season before it started, and he's done essentially the same thing this year. Getting too used to losing, or even worse wanting to lose for a higher pick like most fans seem to want, is terrible for a franchise.

[Buppy 1,720]

14 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

and this is exactly why Holland drafted Rasmussen. I certainly hope he turns out to be a well rounded player, but if he is one dimensional (PP player) then I can live without him....

11 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I said at the time that was a bad pick, if he was in fact drafted solely on his ability to play net front on the power-play. You can get those players in the later rounds, and it looks like we may have done just that with Soderblom.

I still think Rasmussen can be a capable 3rd liner, but that's not a great look for a 9th overall pick....

Not at all why Ras was drafted. He was ranked 5th by NHLCS. Right behind Vilardi. He got a bad reputation because one guy picked out one advanced metric from one year and made a big deal about it. Maybe Vilardi would have been a better pick, but he was the only player available consistently ranked ahead of Ras, and he had many of the same question marks about his potential. Considering Ras's strengths also addressed notable team weaknesses, no one should be complaining about that pick.

Furthermore, Ras has put up numbers similar to what Mantha did at the same age, with the exception of at 19, Ras had an underwhelming season in the NHL while Mantha had a dominate year in juniors.

Mantha

• 17yo - QMJHL - 63gp - 22g - 51p .81ppg
• 18 - QMJHL - 67 - 50 - 89 - 1.33
• 19 - QMJHL - 57 - 57 - 120 - 2.11
• 20 - AHL - 62 - 15 - 33 - .53

Ras:

• 17 - WHL - 50 - 32 - 55 - 1.1
• 18 - WHL - 47 - 31 - 59 - 1.26
• 19 - NHL - 62 - 8 - 18 - .29
• 20 - AHL - 35 - 7 - 22 - .63

Ras is 5 months older, in relative terms, and so was able to start in the CHL a year earlier, which would explain the disparity in the first year. Shouldn't have much impact in the later years though. Of course, none of that means Ras will develop in the same way Mantha has since then though. It will be disappointing if he doesn't, doubly so if Vilardi turns out significantly better, But this does illustrate how profoundly expectations can be effected by players being in different situations. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 hours ago, Buppy said:

Cholowski's demotion last year, much like the year before, was likely to allow him to develop against a more appropriate level of competition. He wasn't effective in the NHL; playing in the AHL was better for him. Considering he really didn't improve at all from his first year to his second, and now hasn't played in 10 months, I wouldn't expect much this year. Maybe he'll surprise, but I won't hold my breath.

Nobody on the Red Wings have played in 10 months. Cholowski isn't at a disadvantage there. He was a "surprise" out of camp in each of the past two seasons, so why not again this season? His problem hasn't been getting a spot, it's been holding down that spot...

4 hours ago, Buppy said:

He has not been good offensively. 24 points in 88 games. Not even that good in the AHL. 25 points in 55 games. Dekeyser level offense .69 P/60 last year with 2:40/g PP time. For comparison, Daley (who you call one of the worst in the league) with less than a minute PP time per game scored .63 P/60. Staal and Stecher both produced better without any PP time worth mentioning. At even strength, Nemeth, Biega and Merrill all produced more. 

Last season Hronek, Bowey and Green (barely) produced at a higher clip than Cholowski. Daley, Nemeth, Ericsson, Lindstrom, and Biega all produced at a significantly lower clip.

4 hours ago, Buppy said:

You made the same arguments about Smith and Sproul. Like once you label a player an offensive defenseman you'll say he's "good offensively" no matter how he performs. If he was actually good, he wouldn't have any problem beating out the likes of Daley or Biega or Merrill. That's why Hronek has stuck despite his own somewhat weak defense.

And I'd make the same argument again. These players were / are offensive defensemen. That's why they were drafted, and that's why they've had success up to that / this point. Whether or not that offense translates to the NHL is irrelevant in this argument. I'm not saying Cholowski will be a dynamic offensive defenseman. I'm saying he's shown flashes, and we need to find out what we have in him. If Cholowski is given another opportunity early on and then traded next month, it wouldn't bother me a bit. 

4 hours ago, Buppy said:

You like to say "be given every opportunity", but what you really mean is that he should be given a spot no matter what. You know there's nothing Staal, Merrill, Biega, or Lindstrom (or likely even Nemeth, Stecher, or Dekeyser) could do that would make you believe they deserve a spot over Cholowski. And you're against adding anyone you think could beat him out, like Vatanen. We can gift him a spot next year, no need to do so now when he's still waiver exempt. 

Not at all. I've said he still needs to earn it. He's earned it at the beginning of the past two seasons, and there's no reason to think he can't again this season. Hopefully he can hold onto it this time though. Hronek, DeKeyser, Nemeth, Stecher, and maybe even Merrill should be ahead of Cholowski. Staal, Biega and Lindstrom should not be in my opinion. I think Cholowski should be able to beat all of the latter group, whether that's game one or not, we'll see.

I don't think a team should ever wait until a player is waiver eligible to figure out whether or not he's a part of the future. That should be done this season in my opinion.

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 hours ago, Buppy said:

Not at all why Ras was drafted. He was ranked 5th by NHLCS. Right behind Vilardi. He got a bad reputation because one guy picked out one advanced metric from one year and made a big deal about it. Maybe Vilardi would have been a better pick, but he was the only player available consistently ranked ahead of Ras, and he had many of the same question marks about his potential. Considering Ras's strengths also addressed notable team weaknesses, no one should be complaining about that pick.

I said IF it was the reason he was drafted. I remember Tyler Wright going on and on about his size and ability to play net front on the power-play. I thought there were better options at the time. I was big on Vilardi, but I've come around on Rasmussen. I think he could still be a very good role player for this team.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

16 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

That trade was great because it got us Hronek with that extra pick who is better than Chychrun. 

True, I forgot about that extra pick.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

6 hours ago, Buppy said:

Not at all why Ras was drafted

...odd, that is what analysts talked about when he was drafted, NHL Network, TSN, Sportsnet, they all said Detroit was looking for a net front presence on the PP. I understand the things you pointed out and other reason's that made him a lottery pick, but there is no denying that he was drafted for his size, his PP points (which made up moist of his points) and the fact that (and it was referred to may times) Detroit hasn't had a PP specialist since Holmstrom retired.

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by LeftWinger

[LeftWinger 4,953]

Quote

Player analysis

Rasmussen has used his large frame to simply attack the net. In 114 games with the Tri-City Americans of the WHL he had 50 goals, highlighted by a breakout 2016-17 season with 32 goals. His comfort zone was beneath the circles, redirecting pucks and collecting rebounds, but also showed ability to use his shot. With Tri-City he was a power play specialist with 15 goals.

https://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2017/5/12/15602822/2017-red-wings-draft-profile-michael-rasmussen-offers-size-and-skill-red-wings-covet

Quote

Craig Button's Analysis

"Ability to score in tight areas and has a proficiency on PP. Great use of wing span."

https://www.tsn.ca/michael-rasmussen-centre-1.741814

...again, I know there were other factors, need of a C, size, but it was eluded to many times, by Ken Holland himself too, that he is a PP specialist and huge net front presence. I do believe even Ken and Mickey mentioned it during that following the season, or on a draft wrap-up show. Maybe he's not a one trick pony, I hope he is not. Hopefully he makes the club and pushes Neilsen and Filppula out. FWIW, not that I matter, but when mocking up my protection list for Seattle, I always protect Ras. My debate is whether to protect Smith or Svech....but that is for another thread and another time! 

Edited January 4, 2021 by LeftWinger

[Akakabuto 1,749]

 

 

[kipwinger 8,522]

3 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

 

 

TBH I'm amazed that they didn't put a giant f*cking Little Caesar on the side.

[Akakabuto 1,749]

30 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

TBH I'm amazed that they didn't put a giant f*cking Little Caesar on the side.

Said the same thing to CRL.

[F.Michael 4,590]

I’m pleasantly surprised to see the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee getting some love from the Red Wings.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

19 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Seider is definitely better than Cholowski. Lindstrom is not. Why is it that you think a player that is good defensively, but awful offensively is better than a player that is not so good defensively, but good offensively? I just don't get that mindset. It was the same argument with Ehn, and look where he ended up... Exactly where I said he would end up...

Because we're discussing DEFENSE-men. Therefore I consider defense a more valuable attribute. If he happens to also be good at offense too, all the better.

I realize there are offensive d-men, but they are generally much better on the offensive side than Cholowski has been to make up for their defensive deficiencies. What I don't want is a guy who lacks both the defense and offense to be impactful at either.

52 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I’m pleasantly surprised to see the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee getting some love from the Red Wings.

Western Michigan

[Buppy 1,720]

9 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Nobody on the Red Wings have played in 10 months. Cholowski isn't at a disadvantage there. He was a "surprise" out of camp in each of the past two seasons, so why not again this season? His problem hasn't been getting a spot, it's been holding down that spot...

Last season Hronek, Bowey and Green (barely) produced at a higher clip than Cholowski. Daley, Nemeth, Ericsson, Lindstrom, and Biega all produced at a significantly lower clip.

And I'd make the same argument again. These players were / are offensive defensemen. That's why they were drafted, and that's why they've had success up to that / this point. Whether or not that offense translates to the NHL is irrelevant in this argument. I'm not saying Cholowski will be a dynamic offensive defenseman. I'm saying he's shown flashes, and we need to find out what we have in him. If Cholowski is given another opportunity early on and then traded next month, it wouldn't bother me a bit. 

Not at all. I've said he still needs to earn it. He's earned it at the beginning of the past two seasons, and there's no reason to think he can't again this season. Hopefully he can hold onto it this time though. Hronek, DeKeyser, Nemeth, Stecher, and maybe even Merrill should be ahead of Cholowski. Staal, Biega and Lindstrom should not be in my opinion. I think Cholowski should be able to beat all of the latter group, whether that's game one or not, we'll see.

I don't think a team should ever wait until a player is waiver eligible to figure out whether or not he's a part of the future. That should be done this season in my opinion.

Lindstrom, one of his direct competitors, has been playing. The others are done developing so it's less of an issue for them. He's fortunate he doesn't have to compete against any of our other prospects for the time being, Maybe the time off won't hurt him, maybe it will.

Yes, Green had a terrible year that led to his retirement, and he put up similar numbers to Cholowski. Daley was also in that ballpark given the difference in ice time. Even in points per game there wasn't that big a difference. Staal produced as much last year with no PP time. Nemeth and Biega were both more productive at even strength, Merrill as well. Might have done better on the PP had they been given the chance. All of them suck offensively. "Whether or not that offense translates to the NHL" is not at all irrelevant. It is the entire argument. Everything about your argument is predicated on the idea that Cholowski is good offensively. He hasn't been up to this point. He's barely even been better than players who suck. 

You say "earn it", but at the same time say only 4 or 5 players should be ahead of him, and arguing against adding anyone else who might be better. I agree he should probably be ahead of Biega. Biega shouldn't have been resigned, and I don't think we should have traded for Staal either. I think we should have tried to get someone good. I think we should have kept Bowey (and still should). I think we should try to get Vatanen. With no pre-season there's limited opportunity to win a spot, but at the same time he has less competition, and could benefit from the taxi squad rule and the later AHL start, plus the almost intentionally weak roster. And with injuries there will be plenty of opportunities. Let's see Cholowski do something without PP time. Let's see him actually produce well in the AHL. Let's see more than one hot stretch of 11 games followed by two half seasons of sub-20 point play. Let's see more than the one season as a 19/20yo in juniors that you could actually call "good" offensively. You know, actually earning things.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:01 PM, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Weren't Kindl and Smith supposed to be good offensively too?

No way SY trades the one top 6 C this team has. Even if you think Larkin is better suited to a 2C role, we'd still be left with absolutely no one to center the top 2 lines.

Never mentioned trading larkin . Brought up mantha ....just said i can see seider being a future captain type player but if larkin is named captain it  he wont trade him afterwards

[marcaractac 3,963]

If Cholowski wants a roster spot, he has to earn it and keep it. He has yet to do the latter. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

13 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Because we're discussing DEFENSE-men. Therefore I consider defense a more valuable attribute. If he happens to also be good at offense too, all the better.

I realize there are offensive d-men, but they are generally much better on the offensive side than Cholowski has been to make up for their defensive deficiencies. What I don't want is a guy who lacks both the defense and offense to be impactful at either.

So when discussing forwards, you consider offense a more valuable attribute? That's not the case and we know that.

I'd prefer to give an offensive players an opportunity, let him make mistakes, as long as he's learning from them. If he doesn't, oh well. Move on. We did just that with Athanasiou. Maybe we do the same with Cholowski after this season. But if we are going to do that, I'd give him a long hard look this season before doing so.

11 hours ago, Buppy said:

Lindstrom, one of his direct competitors, has been playing. The others are done developing so it's less of an issue for them. He's fortunate he doesn't have to compete against any of our other prospects for the time being, Maybe the time off won't hurt him, maybe it will.

Yes, Green had a terrible year that led to his retirement, and he put up similar numbers to Cholowski. Daley was also in that ballpark given the difference in ice time. Even in points per game there wasn't that big a difference. Staal produced as much last year with no PP time. Nemeth and Biega were both more productive at even strength, Merrill as well. Might have done better on the PP had they been given the chance. All of them suck offensively. "Whether or not that offense translates to the NHL" is not at all irrelevant. It is the entire argument. Everything about your argument is predicated on the idea that Cholowski is good offensively. He hasn't been up to this point. He's barely even been better than players who suck. 

You say "earn it", but at the same time say only 4 or 5 players should be ahead of him, and arguing against adding anyone else who might be better. I agree he should probably be ahead of Biega. Biega shouldn't have been resigned, and I don't think we should have traded for Staal either. I think we should have tried to get someone good. I think we should have kept Bowey (and still should). I think we should try to get Vatanen. With no pre-season there's limited opportunity to win a spot, but at the same time he has less competition, and could benefit from the taxi squad rule and the later AHL start, plus the almost intentionally weak roster. And with injuries there will be plenty of opportunities. Let's see Cholowski do something without PP time. Let's see him actually produce well in the AHL. Let's see more than one hot stretch of 11 games followed by two half seasons of sub-20 point play. Let's see more than the one season as a 19/20yo in juniors that you could actually call "good" offensively. You know, actually earning things.

The offense translating to the NHL is irrelevant, because I'm not arguing that Cholowski will be a great offensive player in the NHL. I can definitely see a reality where he completely flops. I'm arguing that Cholowski has been an offensive player his whole career prior to turning pro, and I think he needs to be given an(other) opportunity.

I get it, some people prefer the more defensive minded, safe option in Lindstrom. With that, you also get a lower ceiling. I don't see Lindstrom ever being a difference maker at the NHL level. Sure, he may be able to defend, but I don't think he'll ever produce much offense. It's much easier to teach an offensive minded player to defend, than it is to teach a defensive minded player to produce offense.

I'm not against adding anyone better than Cholowski. I'm against adding anyone that isn't a significant upgrade over Cholowski now AND in the future, aka age 26+. Something we agree on... I'd much rather sign Bowey to another short term contract, than Vatanen. I liked Bowey, because he could actually produce offense, and despite what people say, I don't think he was that bad defensively...

[F.Michael 4,590]

47 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

If Cholowski wants a roster spot, he has to earn it and keep it. He has yet to do the latter. 

I think Grand Master Y signing Merrill/Stecher, getting Staal via trade, and a healthy DD more or less has Cholo watching from the press box, or playing in GR.