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LeftWinger

2021 Season

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2 hours ago, ely s said:

I would even consider to add a pick to sweeten things up for seattle

A pick for seattle to do what? For nielsen? Doubt theyd ever claim him ... was thinking leave him available for expansion draft as one of the requirements needed and then buy him out 

i cant see nielsen being a redwing in 21-22

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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19 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Biega is the safe choice if Cholo or Lindstrom show that they haven't improved at all since last year. Again, he's not helping you but he's not hurting you nearly as bad. I'd give those youngsters their chances, but if they suck then Biega plays until Seider is done in the SHL.

To some extent every player on the Wings is chasing the play (aside from Mantha and Larkin). Nobody has very good possession numbers. But what separates Cholo from all the other defensemen is how much more often he starts in the offensive zone (58%). He leads the team in o-zone starts and his shot share is 46%. Compare that with someone like Nemeth whose shot share is an nearly-as-bad 49% but who is buried in the defensive zone 60% of the time. So the Wings actually generate MORE offense under Nemeth (despite having to go 200ft to do so) than under Cholowski who is already right there. The same is true for Hronek (40% o-zone starts, 47% shot share).

So yes, the whole team sucks but Cholowski plays the easiest minutes on the team and sucks worse at keeping the puck pointed in the right direction. He is (by far) the most egregious example of this on the team. The next closest player in terms of o-zone starts is Mantha. He starts in the o-zone a lot, but keeps the shot share in the Wings favor pretty significantly (56%).

Biega shouldnt even be talked about hes a taxi squad player who plays when there’s a need. Hes brian lashoff on his last nhl season before being a full time ahl player 

if those kids cant be in the lineup then they should be moved to the ahl , if one forces their way on the team then you try and trade a nemeth now if you can instead of waiting till the deadline

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3 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Biega shouldnt even be talked about hes a taxi squad player who plays when there’s a need. Hes brian lashoff on his last nhl season before being a full time ahl player 

if those kids cant be in the lineup then they should be moved to the ahl , if one forces their way on the team then you try and trade a nemeth now if you can instead of waiting till the deadline

First, if one of them "forces their way on the team" you wouldn't need to trade anybody because the taxi squad means you can just sit the odd man out. Second, I wasn't saying Biega was good, I was saying Biega is less bad (last year) than Cholo or Lindstom. I've already provided the evidence to support that. IF I have to pick one of Staal, Biega, Cholo, or Lindstrom based on what they did a year ago then it's Biega. If someone outperforms him then great, but Cholo certainly didn't a year ago despite being gived PP time and the most sheltered minutes on the team.

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Upside isn't relevant? Cholowski has more upside than any other option in my opinion. THAT'S why I think he should be in the lineup over Staal, Biega, Staal, etc.

Why do you think Cholowski has been given PP opportunities? He's shown flashes of high end ability on the power-play.

Sure. Let him sit on the taxi squad all season. That should be great for his development...

So I guess you agree with the upside. So if you would protect Cholowski over Lindstrom or Stecher, why would you not play him over them? I'm not following the logic...

Potential is important at times, like when considering the future and who to protect in an expansion draft. Not really when it comes to roster decisions this season regarding a player who was bad last season, didn't show any real improvement after being demoted, and hasn't had a full camp and pre-season to truly demonstrate that he deserves a spot. 

Dekeyser got PP time early in his career too. It stopped because he wasn't very good. Even so he would probably be a better option than Cholowski right now. My preference though would be to go after Vatanen. And/or Bowey. Then if Cholowski can beat out Merrill, Staal, Biega, and Lindstrom he can have the 6th spot. If not he can hang around as the #7 or taxi squad until the AHL starts then head there to hopefully show some improvement, We can worry about manufacturing a roster spot for him next year. There is no reason that this year needs to be the year we decide his future. He's still waiver eligible specifically because players of his age and experience often still need more time to develop before teams are forced to make those decisions. Rasmussen has potential too, but I wouldn't force him into the lineup right now either. I want to see him take a step forward in the AHL at least. Plus they'll both get time from injuries.

Right now I'd protect Cholowski ahead of Dekeyser too, because that is a decision about the future of the team. This year's lineup is not.

 

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25 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

First, if one of them "forces their way on the team" you wouldn't need to trade anybody because the taxi squad means you can just sit the odd man out. Second, I wasn't saying Biega was good, I was saying Biega is less bad (last year) than Cholo or Lindstom. I've already provided the evidence to support that. IF I have to pick one of Staal, Biega, Cholo, or Lindstrom based on what they did a year ago then it's Biega. If someone outperforms him then great, but Cholo certainly didn't a year ago despite being gived PP time and the most sheltered minutes on the team.

Sure you can sit the odd man out but i cant see us telling staal and merrill theyd be benched to start the season , especially staal . They seem to have sold him on the idea hed be an important player here and wouldnt look good 

You can provide all the evidence you want , biega is destined to be an ahl player soon enough, could lindstrom and cholowski join him? Of course they can but id much rather play the kids who are 10 yrs younger than some of these guys . Only way to improve in the nhl is to play in it , you can practice all you want in the ahl and try to improve your game but itll never be the same as playing in the nhl (with the better linemates mind you)

You can say cholowski didnt produce last year but neither did  anyone else , we were the worst team in the league by far . Put him on a ppl with a zadina , ryan , rasmussen and whomever else on the point and i can already tell you that would be miles ahead better than the 2nd ppl unit last season

 

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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On 1/4/2021 at 10:27 AM, LeftWinger said:

https://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2017/5/12/15602822/2017-red-wings-draft-profile-michael-rasmussen-offers-size-and-skill-red-wings-covet

https://www.tsn.ca/michael-rasmussen-centre-1.741814

...again, I know there were other factors, need of a C, size, but it was eluded to many times, by Ken Holland himself too, that he is a PP specialist and huge net front presence. I do believe even Ken and Mickey mentioned it during that following the season, or on a draft wrap-up show. Maybe he's not a one trick pony, I hope he is not. Hopefully he makes the club and pushes Neilsen and Filppula out. FWIW, not that I matter, but when mocking up my protection list for Seattle, I always protect Ras. My debate is whether to protect Smith or Svech....but that is for another thread and another time! 

None of this describes as a PP role player. Rasmussen was drafted for the reasons stated:

1. Attacking the net.

2. Play beneath the circles.

3. Net front presence redirecting pucks and putting in rebounds.

4. Ability to use his shot.

5. Ability to score in tight areas.

6. Proficiency on PP.

7. Great use of wingspan.

His PP abilities is only one attribute. All of his other abilities are totally beneficial in even strength, offensive zone situations as well. KH would never draft a player that high for the sole purpose of net front presence on the PP. Rasmussen was/is more skilled than that and brings a lot more to his game than that.

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12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

So when discussing forwards, you consider offense a more valuable attribute? That's not the case and we know that.

I'd prefer to give an offensive players an opportunity, let him make mistakes, as long as he's learning from them. If he doesn't, oh well. Move on. We did just that with Athanasiou. Maybe we do the same with Cholowski after this season. But if we are going to do that, I'd give him a long hard look this season before doing so.

The offense translating to the NHL is irrelevant, because I'm not arguing that Cholowski will be a great offensive player in the NHL. I can definitely see a reality where he completely flops. I'm arguing that Cholowski has been an offensive player his whole career prior to turning pro, and I think he needs to be given an(other) opportunity.

I get it, some people prefer the more defensive minded, safe option in Lindstrom. With that, you also get a lower ceiling. I don't see Lindstrom ever being a difference maker at the NHL level. Sure, he may be able to defend, but I don't think he'll ever produce much offense. It's much easier to teach an offensive minded player to defend, than it is to teach a defensive minded player to produce offense.

I'm not against adding anyone better than Cholowski. I'm against adding anyone that isn't a significant upgrade over Cholowski now AND in the future, aka age 26+. Something we agree on... I'd much rather sign Bowey to another short term contract, than Vatanen. I liked Bowey, because he could actually produce offense, and despite what people say, I don't think he was that bad defensively...

Forwards are more role specific. If we're talking about scoring lines, then yes, I consider offense a more desirable attribute. If we're talking checking line or a shutdown line, than I consider defense more important. 

I don't think I need to explain to a Canadian how much more important it is for defenseman to be more defensively aware/responsible than forwards.

Lindstrom isn't going to be an offensive defenseman. He was never expected to be. 3rd pair defensive dman is probably where he'll end up. And as long as he's actually good at defense, I'm okay with that.

Cholowski was supposed to be an offensive dman. So far, we haven't seen that. To make matters worse, he's not been very good defensively either. If you can't be good at both, at least be good at one or the other. Not mediocre to poor at both, which Cholowski has been.

The reason why people prefer Lindstrom is because he's actually proving to be what he was supposed to be. He's actually developing into a dman who's good at at least one side of play. Cholowski hasn't been good at either. I prefer the guy who's good at something to the guy who is good at nothing.

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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5 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

anyone know how many games nielsen has to play to be one of the veteran players eligible for the expansion draft ? Cause as of now in my mind hes a taxi squad guy all season but due to positive tests and injuries if we can fit him in 15 games and be done with him so he qualifies for the draft that be good enough

Assuming that the rule isn't changed because of the shortened season:

Nielsen only has to play in 10 games this season to meet the 70 games qualifier over the last 2 seasons.

Erne only has to play in 14 games.

2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

A pick for seattle to do what? For nielsen? Doubt theyd ever claim him ... was thinking leave him available for expansion draft as one of the requirements needed and then buy him out 

Exactly the reason why I was advocating for NOT buying him out this past summer. Buy him out NEXT summer. Keeping him one more year takes 2 years of his cap penalty and gives SY another eligible forward to expose in the expansion draft.

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3 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Assuming that the rule isn't changed because of the shortened season:

Nielsen only has to play in 10 games this season to meet the 70 games qualifier over the last 2 seasons.

Erne only has to play in 14 games.

According to CapFriendly, the thresholds will be pro-rated down to 27 games this year, or 54 combined this year and last. Nielsen already meets the requirements. We do need to sign another forward beyond this season though. Besides Nielsen we have only Larkin, Mantha, Fabbri, and Namestnikov. I thought last time that RFAs counted as "under contract", which would make Erne at least count for the 2nd forward required, but CapFriendly thinks otherwise. Easy enough to sign him for an extra year though.

Fulcher fulfills the goalie requirement, since there's no required games played. Right now, Stecher is the only D that meets the requirement. Dekeyser will assuming he plays 27 games. If not, we'll have to sign someone if for some reason we want to protect Stecher.

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12 hours ago, Buppy said:

Potential is important at times, like when considering the future and who to protect in an expansion draft. Not really when it comes to roster decisions this season regarding a player who was bad last season, didn't show any real improvement after being demoted, and hasn't had a full camp and pre-season to truly demonstrate that he deserves a spot. 

Right now I'd protect Cholowski ahead of Dekeyser too, because that is a decision about the future of the team. This year's lineup is not.

I think this year's lineup decisions does affect the future of this team in a big way. It depends on where you think would be more beneficial for Cholowski to develop, the AHL or NHL. Like mentioned, I don't think you should go into the expansion draft this summer without a real look at Cholowski this season. Fortunately, I think Cholowski will get plenty of looks throughout the season. I just hope he's not being yo-yoed between leagues. There's something to be said about how that affects a players confidence, and thus development as well.

Again, Cholowski demonstrated that he deserved a spot in each of the past two training camps. I don't think there's any reason to doubt he can do so again this time around. He just needs to hold onto it this time. And yes, that will mean generating offense, producing on the power-play, and playing better defensively.

13 hours ago, Buppy said:

Dekeyser got PP time early in his career too. It stopped because he wasn't very good. Even so he would probably be a better option than Cholowski right now. My preference though would be to go after Vatanen. And/or Bowey. Then if Cholowski can beat out Merrill, Staal, Biega, and Lindstrom he can have the 6th spot. If not he can hang around as the #7 or taxi squad until the AHL starts then head there to hopefully show some improvement, We can worry about manufacturing a roster spot for him next year. There is no reason that this year needs to be the year we decide his future. He's still waiver eligible specifically because players of his age and experience often still need more time to develop before teams are forced to make those decisions. Rasmussen has potential too, but I wouldn't force him into the lineup right now either. I want to see him take a step forward in the AHL at least. Plus they'll both get time from injuries.

I agree with the bold (for the most part), but I think things are different with the expansion draft looming. I think all of the players eligible to be drafted by Seattle should / will get a good long look this season.

I think Rasmussen needs to play a lot this season as well. I'd personally play Cholowski (and Lindstrom) over Staal and Biega, and Rasmussen (and Svechnikov (if healthy) and Smith) over Nielsen, Filppula, Helm and Erne most nights.

12 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Forwards are more role specific. If we're talking about scoring lines, then yes, I consider offense a more desirable attribute. If we're talking checking line or a shutdown line, than I consider defense more important. 

I don't think I need to explain to a Canadian how much more important it is for defenseman to be more defensively aware/responsible than forwards.

Lindstrom isn't going to be an offensive defenseman. He was never expected to be. 3rd pair defensive dman is probably where he'll end up. And as long as he's actually good at defense, I'm okay with that.

Cholowski was supposed to be an offensive dman. So far, we haven't seen that. To make matters worse, he's not been very good defensively either. If you can't be good at both, at least be good at one or the other. Not mediocre to poor at both, which Cholowski has been.

The reason why people prefer Lindstrom is because he's actually proving to be what he was supposed to be. He's actually developing into a dman who's good at at least one side of play. Cholowski hasn't been good at either. I prefer the guy who's good at something to the guy who is good at nothing.

Sure, I guess, but the Lindstrom's of the world can be found in free agency for dirt cheap, every single offseason.

I think all players should be able to defend to some degree, as well as generate offense to some degree. I think Cholowski is better offensively than Lindstrom is defensively. 24 points in 88 games as a 20/21 year old defenseman on a team that struggles to generate offense / score goals, has one of the worst power-plays in the league (that's not on Cholowski), is pretty solid in my opinion.

Based on that, I don't think it's too unrealistic to think he could become close to a point per game defensemen through his prime years, once this team gets better over the next few seasons. The question still remains whether or not he can improve on his defensive game. I think he can, but we should soon find out...

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7 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think this year's lineup decisions does affect the future of this team in a big way. It depends on where you think would be more beneficial for Cholowski to develop, the AHL or NHL. Like mentioned, I don't think you should go into the expansion draft this summer without a real look at Cholowski this season. Fortunately, I think Cholowski will get plenty of looks throughout the season. I just hope he's not being yo-yoed between leagues. There's something to be said about how that affects a players confidence, and thus development as well.

Again, Cholowski demonstrated that he deserved a spot in each of the past two training camps. I don't think there's any reason to doubt he can do so again this time around. He just needs to hold onto it this time. And yes, that will mean generating offense, producing on the power-play, and playing better defensively.

I agree with the bold (for the most part), but I think things are different with the expansion draft looming. I think all of the players eligible to be drafted by Seattle should / will get a good long look this season.

I think Rasmussen needs to play a lot this season as well. I'd personally play Cholowski (and Lindstrom) over Staal and Biega, and Rasmussen (and Svechnikov (if healthy) and Smith) over Nielsen, Filppula, Helm and Erne most nights.

Sure, I guess, but the Lindstrom's of the world can be found in free agency for dirt cheap, every single offseason.

I think all players should be able to defend to some degree, as well as generate offense to some degree. I think Cholowski is better offensively than Lindstrom is defensively. 24 points in 88 games as a 20/21 year old defenseman on a team that struggles to generate offense / score goals, has one of the worst power-plays in the league (that's not on Cholowski), is pretty solid in my opinion.

Based on that, I don't think it's too unrealistic to think he could become close to a point per game defensemen through his prime years, once this team gets better over the next few seasons. The question still remains whether or not he can improve on his defensive game. I think he can, but we should soon find out...

If Cholowski ever scores 75 points in an NHL season, I'll eat a Little Caesar's pizza.

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1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

If Cholowski ever scores 75 points in an NHL season, I'll eat a Little Caesar's pizza.

Yeah, clearly a typo... I meant to say...

I don't think it's too unrealistic to think he could become close to a HALF point per game defensemen through his prime years, once this team gets better over the next few seasons.

I don't think 35-40 points in his prime is that crazy... He may never get there, but maybe...

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10 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think this year's lineup decisions does affect the future of this team in a big way. It depends on where you think would be more beneficial for Cholowski to develop, the AHL or NHL. Like mentioned, I don't think you should go into the expansion draft this summer without a real look at Cholowski this season. Fortunately, I think Cholowski will get plenty of looks throughout the season. I just hope he's not being yo-yoed between leagues. There's something to be said about how that affects a players confidence, and thus development as well.

Again, Cholowski demonstrated that he deserved a spot in each of the past two training camps. I don't think there's any reason to doubt he can do so again this time around. He just needs to hold onto it this time. And yes, that will mean generating offense, producing on the power-play, and playing better defensively.

.I might agree if we were looking at any kind of difficult decisions in our protection list. But right now the most difficult question is who do we sign to be the 2nd experienced forward exposed that we wouldn't mind keeping too much if Seattle doesn't take him.

And he didn't so much show he deserved a spot as he benefitted from weak and often injured competition. Technically, Libor Sulak also earned a spot out of camp a couple years ago. Now two years later Cholowski still needs weak competition to have a shot. That's not really earning anything.

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9 minutes ago, Buppy said:

.I might agree if we were looking at any kind of difficult decisions in our protection list. But right now the most difficult question is who do we sign to be the 2nd experienced forward exposed that we wouldn't mind keeping too much if Seattle doesn't take him.

And he didn't so much show he deserved a spot as he benefitted from weak and often injured competition. Technically, Libor Sulak also earned a spot out of camp a couple years ago. Now two years later Cholowski still needs weak competition to have a shot. That's not really earning anything.

I think Cholowski is a better option over Staal and Biega (and Lindstrom) for this season and the future. I think most Red Wings fans would agree. A few here seem to disagree, which is fine. 

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I think Cholowski is a better option over Staal and Biega (and Lindstrom) for this season and the future. I think most Red Wings fans would agree. A few here seem to disagree, which is fine. 

You're kind of proving my point. You can only compare him to the two worst defensemen on the team, and another prospect who also shouldn't be on the team. 

You could argue that he'd be better off in GR than as the #6 in Detroit even if he was clearly better than those guys, the fact that it's even debatable just makes it so much worse. Staal scored just as well as Cholowski but without any PP time, and even as old and suck as he is he's still better defensively too. Biega was awful last year, but put up good number the year before, and again is also better defensively. With some of the still-available UFAs like Vatanen, Bowey, or Ben Hutton, all of whom could almost certainly be had for one year cheap, and you're basically just handing him a spot.

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9 hours ago, Buppy said:

You're kind of proving my point. You can only compare him to the two worst defensemen on the team, and another prospect who also shouldn't be on the team. 

I'm not sure how I'm proving your point, I'm not even really sure what your point is. My point is that Cholowski should get a good long look this season, whether that's out of the gate, or after 10 games. I think Yzerman / Blashill will prove my point, when he inevitably gets into games, and gets power-play time. What he does in those games is yet to be seen. I think he can be a positive impact. If he doesn't show some major progression, I think it may soon be time to move on.

9 hours ago, Buppy said:

You could argue that he'd be better off in GR than as the #6 in Detroit...

Sure you could argue that. You could also argue that he'd be better off in Detroit as the #6 defenseman, playing, practicing and training with NHL players, rather than in Grand Rapids on what will likely be a very bad Griffins team...

9 hours ago, Buppy said:

... even if he was clearly better than those guys, the fact that it's even debatable just makes it so much worse. Staal scored just as well as Cholowski but without any PP time, and even as old and suck as he is he's still better defensively too. Biega was awful last year, but put up good number the year before, and again is also better defensively. With some of the still-available UFAs like Vatanen, Bowey, or Ben Hutton, all of whom could almost certainly be had for one year cheap, and you're basically just handing him a spot.

Your "Staal scored just as well as Cholowski" argument is extremely flawed. First of all, the Wings were far and away the worst offensive team in the league last season. They scored 35 less goals than the next worst team. The Rangers scored 91 more goals than the Red Wings, and Cholowski STILL scored at a slightly better points per game pace, 0.222 PTS/G vs Staal's 0.212 PTS/G. Also take into account that Cholowski is 22, probably going to improve, and Staal is 33, likely going to continue to decline, and Cholowski is a MUCH better option. He's also a much better option than Biega and Lindstrom, again in my opinion...

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16 hours ago, The 91 of Ryan said:

I'm not positive Cholo will even hit 200 games played lol

Here's a Cholo timeline for you:

Drafted in the 1st round from the... BCHL (Thanks Ken)
Goes to college
Quits college cause playing against college players is too hard
Goes to the CHL as a 20 year old to whoop on high school kids (lol)
Advances to the AHL -  is awful
Gets two NHL stints - is awful

You are here.

Super excited to see what this player - who has never produced amongst his peers besides in the british columbia hockey league - can do. After all he's shown flashes of sheer panic when the puck is on his stick. Maybe one day he can be Brendan Smith 2.0 if he's lucky.

 

He hit 7 goals with the redwings in 50 games and our line up then and since then has been garbage . Dont think  its against the realm of possibilities that he can hit 10 goals ...with additions like ryan,zadina,namestnikov,rasmussen it should make us a bit better 

outside hronek we have zero offensive production currently from the back end so id take those 10 goals from cholowski if hes got that to give

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1 hour ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

He hit 7 goals with the redwings in 50 games and our line up then and since then has been garbage . Dont think  its against the realm of possibilities that he can hit 10 goals ...with additions like ryan,zadina,namestnikov,rasmussen it should make us a bit better 

outside hronek we have zero offensive production currently from the back end so id take those 10 goals from cholowski if hes got that to give

The real 91 of Ryans agrees with this 100%

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