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Gniwder

Red Wings Brass Believes This Will Be An Extended Rebuild

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Here is my assessment of the organizational assets (Signed):

Tier 1 - (Franchise players/Foundational assets/Building blocks/Team pillars)
Moritz Seider

Tier 2 - (Top 6 and top 4 players/Valuable assets)
Dylan Larkin
Filip Hronek
Tyler Bertuzzi
Robby Fabbri
Jakub Vrana
Filip Zadina
Lucas Raymond

Tier 3 - (Middle 6 and bottom 4 players/Regular assets)
Michael Rasmussen
Joseph Veleno
Albert Johansson
Jared McIsaac
Givani Smith
Vladislav Namestnikov
Luke Glendening
Adam Erne
Evgeny Svechnikov
Gustav Lindstrom
Dennis Cholowski
Troy Stecher
Richard Panik
Bobby Ryan
Taro Hirose
Jonathan Bernier

Tier 4 - (Other assets)
Frans Nielsen
Darren Helm
Valtteri Filppula
Sam Gagner
Marc Staal
Danny Dekeyser
Christian Djoos
Alex Biega
Thomas Greiss
Mathias Brome
Kevin Boyle
Calvin Pickard
Chase Pearson
Riley Barber
Hayden Verbeek
Dominic Turgeon
Elson Turner
Kyle Crisculo
Joe Hicketts
Dylan McIlrath
Seth Barton
Donovan Sebrango
Filip Larsson
Victor Brattstrom
Kaden Fulcher

 

Obviously a lot more variation in the lower tiers.

The goal of the rebuild is to find Tier1 pieces, and then proceed down the tiers from there. Only after we have 3-4 tier 1 pieces should we start giving a crap about the lower tiers. Lower tiers should be leveraged to their fullest to rebuild the upper tiers and especially tier 1.

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40 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Here is my assessment of the organizational assets (Signed):

Pretty accurate on where we are at the moment imho.

If we revisit this in a year from now and Raymond and Rasmussen has jumped up a tier we are looking good. 

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4 hours ago, marcaractac said:

If Zadina is still producing similar offense when he hits 24/25, fine. But the kid is 21. Lets see what we have first. Because if he does grow into a 60 point winger and continues to improve defensively, we probably wanna keep him around. 

Mantha was traded because at his age, he is what he is. An established top six winger. An excellent addition to a contender who has aged out of our rebuild. The trade works because we get a player who can make up for most of Mantha's lost offense. Not to mention that Mantha was still an AHLer at Zadina's current age. 

I agree with all of this, but I also want to add that I think Yzerman also shipped him out because Mantha wasnt exactly setting the best example for the young kids when it came to work ethic. On Washington he will be a a secondary role where there will be few eyes on him, and with guys like Ovie running the show and them being contenders, I have to imagine he puts in more effort. Here when it really didnt matter and he was supposed to be a cornerstone with Larkin, not the best spot for him. Win-Win.

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13 hours ago, Gniwder said:

Zadina was certainly BPA at the time we were picking. I never even watched or read much about him going into the draft because I assumed we wouldn't have a chance at selecting him. But then we did and I was thrilled at our luck.

Few months later I got to finally watch him play. Awful. Not deserving of a top 10 pick. Now I know why the other GMs passed on the supposed #2/#3 player. Holland clearly didn't do his homework and should have also passed on him as well like the 5 GMs before him. 1 dimensional winger with pumped up numbers.

Boqvist, Hughes, Kravtsov, Bouchard, Wahlstrom, and Dobson would have all been better picks.

Keep doubling down on the infinite amount of excuses for this kid... "HIS PLAY AWAY FROM THE PUCK HAS DEVELOPED SO MUCH IGNORE THE DEPRESSED SCORING NUMBERS HES DEVELOPING"... He is indeed developing, but not in any significant way to get excited about. This kid does not have toolbox or the smarts to ever be anything beyond an average complimentary 2nd liner winger.

Doubt me if you want. I saw Seider's greatness ahead of everyone, and I saw Zadina's flaws. One is accelerating at mach speed and the other continues to flounder. Color me surprised. I'm still very confident in my assessment... despite the ridiculous outrage levied against me for it over the seasons.

Boohoo, your 6th overall was drafted WAY too high for his actual value. Get over it and remove the Wings bias when assessing your players.

I approve of this message.

19 hours ago, kliq said:

First off, I never said or insinuated that Zadina was even in the same stratosphere as McDavid. So lets just move on from that.

As far as you wanting Hughes or Dobson, I get that, I find nothing wrong with that statement. We had a glaring need on D, and instead we took BPA. My issue with your statement was this:

This statement is pure hyperbole, plain and simple. Zadina was the BPA based on almost all draft rankings which I proved above.

As far as you looking forward to Zadina not improving 3 years from now, I find that sad. You would rather our #3 prospect turn out to be a bust so you can use that to mock strangers on a message board, rather than hope he proves you wrong and becomes a star winger. To each their own man, but are you even a Wings fan?

You've really put some words in my mouth there...  what I said is Zadina will still be a bust 3 years from now, and a number of folks here will still be beating the "he's still young drum" because they can't face reality. 

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5 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

Pretty accurate on where we are at the moment imho.

If we revisit this in a year from now and Raymond and Rasmussen has jumped up a tier we are looking good. 

I think we're in a very particular window right now. That window is called Larkin's contract. We have him signed for 2 more seasons and then he's potentially a UFA. All other players are RFA restricted for now.

This ship (and Dylan's ship) has approximately 20 months to turn into the wind before Larks is traded.

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1 hour ago, mackel said:

You've really put some words in my mouth there...  what I said is Zadina will still be a bust 3 years from now, and a number of folks here will still be beating the "he's still young drum" because they can't face reality. 

I didnt put any words in your mouth, your exact words were:

Quote

But I do look forward to three years from now when Zadina is still what he is homer fans saying, but he's only 24... sheesh

You are flat our saying that you look forward to Zadina being a bust. Sorry, but I find it odd that a Wings fan would "look forward" to that.

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15 hours ago, Gniwder said:

Thanks for quoting me. Matt is in here deleting my posts. Matt go back to be an absentee website owner plz. We only require your interference when you let your deadbeat website go down for an entire month.

So if I said "Zadina is doing amazing and really developing his D game. It's clear the offense WILL come and he will be a tremendous winger" you would call that premature and wrong? Right?

I would, yes. Because you only seem to operate in extremes. The reality is somewhere in the middle. Throughout ~75 NHL games, his 2-way game is developing nicely. He has shown skill with his playmaking ability, but seems to have lost confidence in his shooting. The hope is that part of his game will continue to develop as well. 

His shooting % is half of what it normally is, even in relation to his NHL experience before this season. I think there is a good chance that'll come back up. 

You say Zadina is more of a passenger who needs others to do the work for him. I see someone who is really good at setting up plays, but has nobody to finish them. I think Zadina would be best with more of a playmaking center (not Larkin's string point) and a sniper on the other wing. I believe that is the type of line that would bring out the best in all 3 players. 

In the end, luckily Zadina is young enough to have a chance to keep growing his game. 

Edited by marcaractac

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1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

I would, yes. Because you only seem to operate in extremes. The reality is somewhere in the middle. Throughout ~75 NHL games, his 2-way game is developing nicely. He has shown skill with his playmaking ability, but seems to have lost confidence in his shooting. The hope is that part of his game will continue to develop as well. 

His shooting % is half of what it normally is, even in relation to his NHL experience before this season. I think there is a good chance that'll come back up. 

You say Zadina is more of a passenger who needs others to do the work for him. I see someone who is really good at setting up plays, but has nobody to finish them. I think Zadina would be best with more of a playmaking center (not Larkin's string point) and a sniper on the other wing. I believe that is the type of line that would bring out the best in all 3 players. 

In the end, luckily Zadina is young enough to have a chance to keep growing his game. 

Just to be clear... I called Zadina a complimentary 2nd NHL line winger, suggested he will obtain a 60 pt pace in the near future, and ranked him in the same tier as Larkin, Hronek, Fabbri, Bertuzzi, Vrana, and Raymond... but I only deal in extremes?

If you can't have a conversation with me without using misrepresentation and strawmen fallacies, stick to debating Mackel.

I post up and down this board calling Seider the next coming of Chris Pronger. A franchise Dman. A player who basically already has multiple norris trophies locked in... He literally just turned 20 and has never played in the NHL... and you still have never called me out for being "premature and wrong". Why is that? Unless you really only like to police folks who speak negatively... as I've already correctly suggested you do.

Edited by Gniwder

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From Max Bultmans state of the franchise article on athletic

Yserman:

Quote

"We will do the things necessary, we will take the approach that I believe — that I’ve learned from Ken Holland, and learned with the Illitchs through our experiences — that if we follow the process, we do our job right, and truthfully we get a little bit of luck, we’ll get back to where we’re expecting to be."

WireAP_6334d4765fcd41e1a06882528d2c1efc_

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33 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Just to be clear... I called Zadina a complimentary 2nd NHL line winger, suggested he will obtain a 60 pt pace in the near future, and ranked him in the same tier as Larkin, Hronek, Fabbri, Bertuzzi, Vrana, and Raymond... but I only deal in extremes?

If you can't have a conversation with me without using misrepresentation and strawmen fallacies, stick to debating Mackel.

I post up and down this board calling Seider the next coming of Chris Pronger. A franchise Dman. A player who basically already has multiple norris trophies locked in... He literally just turned 20 and has never played in the NHL... and you still have never called me out for being "premature and wrong". Why is that? Unless you really only like to police folks who speak negatively... as I've already correctly suggested you do.

Can you have a debate without crying about strawman? Can you have a debate without thinking you're being policed? The paranoia is strong on 4/20 I guess. 

You've called Zadina one dimensional countless times. That's the aspect of your assessment of him I disagree with. I'd agree that it's likely he'll obtain a 60 point pace in the future. I just don't think a 60+ point winger with a strong defensive game is a complementary player. If you think he is, fine. I'm not here to tell you how to think. I'm here to state my own opinions.

You think that is a reason to trade him. I think that scoring pace plus the continued development of his defensive game is reason to absolutely keep him around. That's a winning brand of hockey. If he was currently 25/26 years old? Different story. 

You keep pushing this Seider s*** on me as if I'm being some sort of hypocrite. Seider has exceeded expectations at every level thus far and has shown no reason to doubt his potential. If he struggled at any point along the way and someone s*** on him, I'd stick up for him just as quick. Maybe, just maybe, when someone doesn't mention one of your opinions, it's because they more or less agree with it and see no point in turning it into a debate. What a concept. 

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19 hours ago, Gniwder said:

Mantha was traded because the wheels on the bus completely came off. Stopped trying. We all could see it. If he gave a crap he would've pumped his numbers and would still be around. And Yzerman would be saying the opposite of "this is gonna take longer than expected".

I believe I can assess a player at 21. If you feel you can't, okay I guess?

Just find it strange that you all love to assess 18 year olds prior to the draft but from 19-24 it's forbidden to do so.

He's not a player I would build a team around. We need players we can build a team around. If we already had the foundational pieces he would be a welcome addition. But because we don't he immediately becomes expendable in an effort to find those pieces. Not sure how to better explain that to you. It's pretty straightforward.

In our situation absolutely. I'm surprised you'd object strongly to this.

We don't need good players. We need building blocks.

I'm not trying to ice a good team. I'm trying to build a cup team. I think this is where many of you don't see eye to eye with me. If your goal is just to be competitive and make the playoffs then you won't like my takes. I want cups not playoff appearances.

Soderblom is completely a hypothetical. How are you missing the point here? Exchange his name for any untested prospect dippy

Buffalo is gonna ship out Eichel ASAP. And we should trade Larkin too. He ain't that good. Berggren and Raymond have a whole lot to prove before they get deemed ELITE. And if either are elite level good they won't need a Zadina to produce. Elite building block players can make all their teammates look good. And make players like Abdelkader earn unfair contracts. Zadina is more in line with Abdelkader. He's dependant on his teammates for production. Completely expendable.

That's the idea. I'm not comfortable moving forward until Seider has at least two forwards with him who are elite level offensive drivers. That's what it takes to build a perennial championship team. If that means wheeling and dealing until Seider is 30 I'm completely okay with that. But hopefully we get those players sooner than that.

 

Who else needs to be dunked on today?

I have no problem dealing larkin if were throwing around s*** like mantha didnt fit the timeline when larkin is right up there in age ... Everyone always needs someone to produce , ovechkin would still score but you think not having someone like backstrom feeding him didnt help his stats? Zadina has nobody right now incase you havent noticed our roster is garbage  and not many team’s have a connor mcdavid on their roster 

until seider is 30 lmao yes lets keep trading every top prospect for another 10 yrs  ... hey kid your 21 and you havent scored 30 yet ... ciao! ...your ridiculous . Lucky  for us we should be in good position after the 23 draft and we wont have to hear this nonsense

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14 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Can you have a debate without crying about strawman? Can you have a debate without thinking you're being policed? The paranoia is strong on 4/20 I guess.

Don't use strawman fallacies and you won't get called out for it. Simple as.

14 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

You've called Zadina one dimensional countless times. That's the aspect of your assessment of him I disagree with. I'd agree that it's likely he'll obtain a 60 point pace in the future. I just don't think a 60+ point winger with a strong defensive game is a complementary player. If you think he is, fine. I'm not here to tell you how to think. I'm here to state my own opinions.

So far you've called my assessment "premature" and "extreme". Yet, as you've clearly stated now, you only consider my assessments premature when you personally disagree with them. And now you're backing off your extreme claims. Again, keep trying to spin things and I'll keep calling you out for it.

Right now he's not a 60+ pt winger. He's a 30pt winger who would be played behind Filppula, Nielsen, Helm, Namestnikov, and Erne defensively. Basically not a tremendous liability. Great. Really something to write home about.

The thing I am pleased with him on this year is the takeaways. I praised him up and down the last two years on his ability to strip the puck. Even called it Datsyukian. But I complained that he wasn't using this ability enough and needed to be in better positioning to do so. He's definitely improved that aspect of his game this season.

I think the kid is still 1 dimensional in the O-zone. Not a play driver. Not a shooter. He's going to be reliant on his center and linemates and unfortunately Larkin is providing him a whole lot of diddly this year to work with. When he gets a competent center he will rack up more points.

39 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

You keep pushing this Seider s*** on me as if I'm being some sort of hypocrite. Seider has exceeded expectations at every level thus far and has shown no reason to doubt his potential. If he struggled at any point along the way and someone s*** on him, I'd stick up for him just as quick. Maybe, just maybe, when someone doesn't mention one of your opinions, it's because they more or less agree with it and see no point in turning it into a debate. What a concept. 

You are a hypocrite. If you think negative opinions of young players are "premature and wrong" you should hold the same standard for positive ones and be telling everyone to pump their breaks. You don't, admittedly so.

Either all opinions on young players are premature, or none of them are.

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47 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

I have no problem dealing larkin if were throwing around s*** like mantha didnt fit the timeline when larkin is right up there in age ... Everyone always needs someone to produce , ovechkin would still score but you think not having someone like backstrom feeding him didnt help his stats? Zadina has nobody right now incase you havent noticed our roster is garbage  and not many team’s have a connor mcdavid on their roster

That's exactly my point. Zadina isn't a superstar. He's not a pillar piece thats gonna be able to drive this team. Which makes him completely expendable just like Mantha/Larkin/Bertuzzi/Fabbri.

Zberg and Dats could make a drunken chimp on skates look good as a linemate. Zadina isn't that player. And we need those players.

Seider is the only one untouchable in my mind.

49 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

until seider is 30 lmao yes lets keep trading every top prospect for another 10 yrs  ... hey kid your 21 and you havent scored 30 yet ... ciao! ...your ridiculous . Lucky  for us we should be in good position after the 23 draft and we wont have to hear this nonsense

Yup, I think you keep wheeling and dealing until we have at least 2 more star caliber players. Dumbest thing we could do is try to accelerate out of a rebuild without the necessary pieces. I'm prepared to wait for that.

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8 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Don't use strawman fallacies and you won't get called out for it. Simple as.

So far you've called my assessment "premature" and "extreme". Yet, as you've clearly stated now, you only consider my assessments premature when you personally disagree with them. And now you're backing off your extreme claims. Again, keep trying to spin things and I'll keep calling you out for it.

Right now he's not a 60+ pt winger. He's a 30pt winger who would be played behind Filppula, Nielsen, Helm, Namestnikov, and Erne defensively. Basically not a tremendous liability. Great. Really something to write home about.

The thing I am pleased with him on this year is the takeaways. I praised him up and down the last two years on his ability to strip the puck. Even called it Datsyukian. But I complained that he wasn't using this ability enough and needed to be in better positioning to do so. He's definitely improved that aspect of his game this season.

I think the kid is still 1 dimensional in the O-zone. Not a play driver. Not a shooter. He's going to be reliant on his center and linemates and unfortunately Larkin is providing him a whole lot of diddly this year to work with. When he gets a competent center he will rack up more points.

You are a hypocrite. If you think negative opinions of young players are "premature and wrong" you should hold the same standard for positive ones and be telling everyone to pump their breaks. You don't, admittedly so.

Either all opinions on young players are premature, or none of them are.

It's funny how you accuse people of putting a spin on what you say, when that is all you do with anyone else.

As for Seider, not sure how much clearer I can spell it out that I mostly agree with your assessment on him, therefore have no reason to tell you to "pump any brakes". But you keep ignoring that fact because it is your own spin on my takes. That makes you a hypocrite. 

1 minute ago, Gniwder said:

Seider is the only one untouchable in my mind.

Genuine curiosity: Why do you think Raymond is a 'Teir 2' prospect and not a potential superstar?

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2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

It's funny how you accuse people of putting a spin on what you say, when that is all you do with anyone else.

Where is that? Point it out big man.

3 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

As for Seider, not sure how much clearer I can spell it out that I mostly agree with your assessment on him, therefore have no reason to tell you to "pump any brakes". But you keep ignoring that fact because it is your own spin on my takes. That makes you a hypocrite.

That's not spin bucko lol. You're admitting you consider things "premature" when you disagree, but not so when you agree. The definition of hypocrisy.

5 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Genuine curiosity: Why do you think Raymond is a 'Teir 2' prospect and not a potential superstar?

No reason for me to believe he's a superstar yet. I would have put Seider in tier2 directly after the draft as well.

Raymond looks like a great passer and thinks the game really well. I also like his confidence and leadership on the ice a lot. Other than that the rest of his toolbox looks still pretty average to me.

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1 minute ago, Gniwder said:

Where is that? Point it out big man.

That's not spin bucko lol. You're admitting you consider things "premature" when you disagree, but not so when you agree. The definition of hypocrisy.

No reason for me to believe he's a superstar yet. I would have put Seider in tier2 directly after the draft as well.

Raymond looks like a great passer and thinks the game really well. I also like his confidence and leadership on the ice a lot. Other than that the rest of his toolbox looks still pretty average to me.

I literally pointed out an example in that very same post. You're also trying real hard to spin our disagreement on Zadina and agreement on Seider into me being a hypocrite. 

I think your assessment of Zadina is premature yes. I don't think your assessment of Seider is premature. Seider has yet to show any sign of not living up to expectations. Zadina at one point has, for sure. But he is also showing plenty of growth. There is no hypocrisy there. How can I call your Seider assessment premature when I think it's accurate? That literally makes no sense. We can agree on some s*** and disagree on others. It's not hypocrisy. It's opinions.

Today I learn that in order to not be a hypocrite, I have to disagree with you on everything. 

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43 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I literally pointed out an example in that very same post. You're also trying real hard to spin our disagreement on Zadina and agreement on Seider into me being a hypocrite. 

I think your assessment of Zadina is premature yes. I don't think your assessment of Seider is premature. Seider has yet to show any sign of not living up to expectations. Zadina at one point has, for sure. But he is also showing plenty of growth. There is no hypocrisy there. How can I call your Seider assessment premature when I think it's accurate? That literally makes no sense. We can agree on some s*** and disagree on others. It's not hypocrisy. It's opinions.

Today I learn that in order to not be a hypocrite, I have to disagree with you on everything. 

You clearly don't understand what premature means.

Allow me to enlighten you. Premature: "occurring before the proper time"

Prematurity has nothing to do with accuracy... you can agree or disagree with my opinion and it can still be premature. My opinion can be correct or incorrect and it can still be premature. Prematurity is purely temporal.

Therefore I find it highly disingenuous for you to refer to an opinion on a 21 year old player as premature, and then turn around and have no problem with the timing on an opinion of a 20 year old.

Learn what words mean.

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4 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

You clearly don't understand what premature means.

Allow me to enlighten you. Premature: "occurring before the proper time"

Prematurity has nothing to do with accuracy... you can agree or disagree with my opinion and it can still be premature. My opinion can be correct or incorrect and it can still be premature. Prematurity is purely temporal.

Therefore I find it highly disingenuous for you to refer to an opinion on a 21 year old player as premature, and then turn around and have no problem with the timing on an opinion of a 20 year old.

Learn what words mean.

Holy f*** are you that dense?

You realize that every player is different, right? That they all develop at their own pace. Some more quickly than others. Some show far more promise early on than others. Premature in this case is in reference to giving up on a player and preferring to see them traded. Context context context. 

Maybe it is premature to say Seider will be the next Pronger. I don't actively say it because I think that can very well be the case at some point. That is the context of the Seider situation.

Context: "the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed."

Without context, the songs 'It's Raining Men' and 'Let the Bodies Hit the Floor' would be about the same thing. The basis of your entire argument here is stripping away context completely.

I know what words mean, The issue is you take their meaning to their literal extreme.

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17 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Holy f*** are you that dense?

You realize that every player is different, right? That they all develop at their own pace. Some more quickly than others. Some show far more promise early on than others. Premature in this case is in reference to giving up on a player and preferring to see them traded. Context context context. 

Maybe it is premature to say Seider will be the next Pronger. I don't actively say it because I think that can very well be the case at some point. That is the context of the Seider situation.

Context: "the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed."

Without context, the songs 'It's Raining Men' and 'Let the Bodies Hit the Floor' would be about the same thing. The basis of your entire argument here is stripping away context completely.

I know what words mean, The issue is you take their meaning to their literal extreme.

Using a word properly is extreme to you?

You literally said this:

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

How can I call your Seider assessment premature when I think it's accurate?

Again, something being premature has nothing to do with it's accuracy. If you don't understand that you shouldn't be arguing about the prematurity of anything. There is zero context in which that sentence makes any sense.

But lets address the context:

Player X has never played in the NHL = Not premature to compare him to a HOFer
Player Y has played 2 partial seasons in the NHL = Premature to say he doesn't look like an elite level player

Your "context" doesn't make it any better.

At least you're starting to realize your mistakes:

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

I don't think your assessment of Seider is premature.

Very next post:

17 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Maybe it is premature to say Seider will be the next Pronger

 

Edited by Gniwder

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1 hour ago, Gniwder said:

That's exactly my point. Zadina isn't a superstar. He's not a pillar piece thats gonna be able to drive this team. Which makes him completely expendable just like Mantha/Larkin/Bertuzzi/Fabbri.

Zberg and Dats could make a drunken chimp on skates look good as a linemate. Zadina isn't that player. And we need those players.

Seider is the only one untouchable in my mind.

Yup, I think you keep wheeling and dealing until we have at least 2 more star caliber players. Dumbest thing we could do is try to accelerate out of a rebuild without the necessary pieces. I'm prepared to wait for that.

Dude but thats ridiculous , how many teams have superstar players on their teams? Most Teams are lucky to have one , do the wild even have one? Nashville doesnt have a superstar forward . We might have one in raymond , we’ll have a good shot in 22/23 doesnt meant zadina whos got all the abilities to hit 30+ and only 21 should be dealt  ... if we strike gold and get shane wright you wanna surround him with rasmussen,glendening and smith’s of the team? He’ll need guys with skill who can play

Again i got np dealing someone like larkin for a big package but at this point wtf is zadina gonna fetch realistically? Its not worth moving him and if he hits 60 pts next year he’ll still only be 22 and would be pointless to trade him yet

zetterberg and datsyuk also had the luck and benefit of playing on teams with the likes of yzerman,lidstrom, fedorov etc... which no doubt helped them , playing with the likes of glendening wont do s*** 

almost anyone is available for trading depending the package but i wouldnt just give away easily for the sake of getting more picks 

2 more star players? As of right now we dont really have one so in your eyes it’s probably trade everyone until we have 5 . We’re not accelerating s*** yzerman said already itll be a slow rebuild but i think after two years if we’re lucky enough to hit top 3 in 2022 and 2023 we’ll be ready to take a big step and surprise teams

course nothing is guaranteed but im sure yzerman will do everything possible to “unintentionally “ tank , take on further staal type players for picks ... this will please fans ... bring back jeff blashill , if hes smart not bring back bernier,delay veleno,raymond etc... arrival to detroit .... should be a fun two years

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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Just now, Gniwder said:

Using a word properly is extreme to you?

You literally said this:

Again, something being premature has nothing to do with it's accuracy. If you don't understand that you shouldn't be arguing about the prematurity of anything. There is zero context in which that sentence makes any sense.

But lets address the context:

Player X has never played in the NHL = Not premature to compare him to a HOFer
Player Y has played 2 partial seasons in the NHL = Premature to say he doesn't look like an elite level player

Your "context" doesn't make it any better.

At least you're start to realize your mistakes:

Very next post:

 

When did I say Zadina will be an elite level player? But no, you don't put a spin on things ever. Literally putting words in my mouth at this point. Who is strawmaning now?

Here is the context I'm looking through, seeing how you need every detail spelled out for you. I see a prospect in Seider who has shown no signs struggled development since being drafted, therefore giving me no reason to think he cannot reach his ceiling. A dman in the mold of Pronger. Does that mean I think he'll be as dominant as Pronger? Nope! Does that mean I think he is a lock to be a HoF'er? Nope! It simply means that I agree that he can be a Pronger-like dman in the NHL.

Zadina on the other hand has shown struggles during his development. He has warranted criticism since being drafted. The aspect I find to be premature is thinking he'll be nothing more than a complementary player that should be traded the second he pumps up his value. A player can be a core part of a team without being 'elite'. A scenario can be presented under more than one context. 

I like how you also single out the line "Maybe it is premature to say Seider will be the next Pronger". You literally spot picked two lines out of context that contradict each other, while ignoring the text that provides any meaning. Strawman at its finest. Pot, meet ketttle.

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4 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Dude but thats ridiculous , how many teams have superstar players on their teams? Most Teams are lucky to have one , do the wild even have one? Nashville doesnt have a superstar forward . We might have one in raymond , we’ll have a good shot in 22/23 doesnt meant zadina whos got all the abilities to hit 30+ and only 21 should be dealt  ... if we strike gold and get shane wright you wanna surround him with rasmussen,glendening and smith’s of the team? He’ll need guys with skill who can play

Again i got np dealing someone like larkin for a big package but at this point wtf is zadina gonna fetch realistically? Its not worth moving him and if he hits 60 pts next year he’ll still only be 22 and would be pointless to trade him yet

zetterberg and datsyuk also had the luck and benefit of playing on teams with the likes of yzerman,lidstrom, fedorov etc... which no doubt helped them , playing with the likes of glendening wont do s*** 

almost anyone is available for trading depending the package but i wouldnt just give away easily for the sake of getting more picks 

2 more star players? As of right now we dont really have one so in your eyes it’s probably trade everyone until we have 5 . We’re not accelerating s*** yzerman said already itll be a slow rebuild but i think after two years if we’re lucky enough to hit top 3 in 2022 and 2023 we’ll be ready to take a big step and surprise teams

course nothing is guaranteed but im sure yzerman will do everything possible to “unintentionally “ tank , take on further staal type players for picks ... this will please fans ... bring back jeff blashill , if hes smart not bring back bernier,delay veleno,raymond etc... arrival to detroit .... should be a fun two years

What exactly has Nashville and Minnesota won? These are the exact teams I want to avoid becoming. Perpetually good enough to make the playoffs, not win anything, and never get high draft picks.

You wanna build a perrenial contender? You have to be prepared to tank for superstars. And unfortunately you're not gonna get extra 1st rounders trading helms and glendogs. You got to be willing to part with high level (but not superstar) level talent.

I'm perfectly willing to have Zadina on the roster until his RFA is expiring. But if we don' have our cornerstone pieces by then it's trade time Fillip.

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2 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

What exactly has Nashville and Minnesota won? These are the exact teams I want to avoid becoming. Perpetually good enough to make the playoffs, not win anything, and never get high draft picks.

You wanna build a perrenial contender? You have to be prepared to tank for superstars. And unfortunately you're not gonna get extra 1st rounders trading helms and glendogs. You got to be willing to part with high level (but not superstar) level talent.

I'm perfectly willing to have Zadina on the roster until his RFA is expiring. But if we don' have our cornerstone pieces by then it's trade time Fillip.

My point is its not every team in the league that has super star players ... and you want 2 ... if we want those we have to depend on ourselves with our early 1st rounders next few seasons cause we wont get one by trading for pick #30 

We are tanking , like i said we’ll have to depend on ourselves unless we luck out like ottawa did with the karlsson deal which wont happen

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Just now, marcaractac said:

When did I say Zadina will be an elite level player? But no, you don't put a spin on things ever. Literally putting words in my mouth at this point. Who is strawmaning now?

You're getting emotional and hurting yourself in confusion now. I never said "you said" anything. I'm calling him not elite and never gonna be elite. Try to follow along.

3 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Here is the context I'm looking through, seeing how you need every detail spelled out for you. I see a prospect in Seider who has shown no signs struggled development since being drafted, therefore giving me no reason to think he cannot reach his ceiling. A dman in the mold of Pronger. Does that mean I think he'll be as dominant as Pronger? Nope! Does that mean I think he is a lock to be a HoF'er? Nope! It simply means that I agree that he can be a Pronger-like dman in the NHL.

Zadina on the other hand has shown struggles during his development. He has warranted criticism since being drafted. The aspect I find to be premature is thinking he'll be nothing more than a complementary player that should be traded the second he pumps up his value. A player can be a core part of a team without being 'elite'. A scenario can be presented under more than one context.

Allow me to give you some context: I am literally calling 2020 19 year old Seider the next coming of HOF Chris Pronger who will multiple Norris trophies. I am not calling him Pronger-esque or whatever scapegoat your digging for.

Do you think this is premature of me?

11 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I like how you also single out the line "Maybe it is premature to say Seider will be the next Pronger". You literally spot picked two lines out of context that contradict each other, while ignoring the text that provides any meaning. Strawman at its finest. Pot, meet ketttle.

You contradicting yourself =/= strawman

Maybe you should look up the definition of strawman while your in the webster reading about what premature means.

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3 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

You're getting emotional and hurting yourself in confusion now. I never said "you said" anything. I'm calling him not elite and never gonna be elite. Try to follow along.

Allow me to give you some context: I am literally calling 2020 19 year old Seider the next coming of HOF Chris Pronger who will multiple Norris trophies. I am not calling him Pronger-esque or whatever scapegoat your digging for.

Do you think this is premature of me?

You contradicting yourself =/= strawman

Maybe you should look up the definition of strawman while your in the webster reading about what premature means.

Yes, awarding Seider multiple Norris trophies is premature. Should I have to state something so obvious? No scapegoating. I agree Seider will be a Pronger-like dman. It's too soon to send him to the Hall and award him his mutiple Norris trophies. 

Also, did not contradict myself. You spot picked two lines to make it appear as if I did. Strawman. 

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