2022 Draft / UFA

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

Yes, I will get used to regular healthy scratch, Filip Zadina. 

good one, Biff

[bIueadams 776]

Hate to say it, but Zadina's evaluation as a player comes down to the infamous and infallible ol eye test for me. 

First time i seriously watched him was when he first took the ice for GR. I went from over the moon about this prospect to massive resentment about the pick almost overnight. He clearly has the hand eye and some other tools to use but his brain is just stupid. Poor decision making in all 3 zones. Is not processing the game fast enough to ever be a top9 nhl forward. 

And I stand by that evaluation i made of him back in his GR days because NOTHING has changed since then. His game has not developed in any meaningful way these past few years. And that should be the kicker for most. Its one thing to be a dissapointing young prospect, its another to show zero forward progress in your development after multiple seasons being afforded great linemates and ice time. 

This is Brendan Smith 2.0. A talented player with a dumb noggan. 

I used to say we could make a hudler out of him if we paired him with out two top guys. I doubt even that at this point. 

[F.Michael 4,590]

10 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Hate to say it, but Zadina's evaluation as a player comes down to the infamous and infallible ol eye test for me.

First time i seriously watched him was when he first took the ice for GR. I went from over the moon about this prospect to massive resentment about the pick almost overnight. He clearly has the hand eye and some other tools to use but his brain is just stupid. Poor decision making in all 3 zones. Is not processing the game fast enough to ever be a top9 nhl forward. 

And I stand by that evaluation i made of him back in his GR days because NOTHING has changed since then. His game has not developed in any meaningful way these past few years. And that should be the kicker for most. Its one thing to be a dissapointing young prospect, its another to show zero forward progress in your development after multiple seasons being afforded great linemates and ice time. 

This is Brendan Smith 2.0. A talented player with a dumb noggan. 

I used to say we could make a hudler out of him if we paired him with out two top guys. I doubt even that at this point. 

Same.

He's had countless opportunities and in most cases he fails miserably.

When guys like Draper and Maltby got to the NHL - their #'s from JR hockey didn't join them so they needed to round out their game (agitation and defense) in order to stick around...I don't see any of that with Zadina - even Veleno could use more nasty in his game since all the muscle he's added appears to have done nothing for him thus far.

[bIueadams 776]

14 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Same.

He's had countless opportunities and in most cases he fails miserably.

When guys like Draper and Maltby got to the NHL - their #'s from JR hockey didn't join them so they needed to round out their game (agitation and defense) in order to stick around...I don't see any of that with Zadina - even Veleno could use more nasty in his game since all the muscle he's added appears to have done nothing for him thus far.

Rasmussen and Veleno have both played an unremarkable game so far. But thats almost good in a way. Theyre at least plugging along and playing the systems without me notcicing egregious errors. Thats the baseline of what i want from young bottom 6 forwards. 

Zadina is a trainwreck on skates. He's way too timid and lackluster defensively to be put in a bottom 6 defensive role. But also nowhere near competent enough to handle a higher scoring role. He falls right into that weird limbo where he wont cut it in the NHL, but will probably go score 80 pts in the swiss league.

Im still pro starting him with suter and kubalik on the 3rd line this season. But im also about 2 wristers - that were going high and left anyway - going directly into a dman in a clogged shooting lane away from benching him permanately. 

 

[F.Michael 4,590]

1 minute ago, bIueadams said:

Rasmussen and Veleno have both played an unremarkable game so far. But thats almost good in a way. Theyre at least plugging along and playing the systems without me notcicing egregious errors. Thats the baseline of what i want from young bottom 6 forwards. 

Zadina is a trainwreck on skates. He's way too timid and lackluster defensively to be put in a bottom 6 defensive role. But also nowhere near competent enough to handle a higher scoring role. He falls right into that weird limbo where he wont cut it in the NHL, but will probably go score 80 pts in the swiss league.

Im still pro starting him with suter and kubalik on the 3rd line this season. But im also about 2 wristers - that were going high and left anyway - going directly into a dman in a clogged shooting lane away from benching him permanately. 

 

I'd rather see Zadina in the press box and giving his minutes on the 3rd line wing to Rasmountain.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, F.Michael said:

I'd rather see Zadina in the press box and giving his minutes on the 3rd line wing to Rasmountain.

Is Ras a bust? IIRC, Ras was like a 9th overall pick and hasn't really been any better than Zadina at this point. But everyone wants Ras to get more opportunity cuz he's not a bust, but get rid of Zadina cuz he is a bust.

[mackel 681]

19 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Is Ras a bust? IIRC, Ras was like a 9th overall pick and hasn't really been any better than Zadina at this point. But everyone wants Ras to get more opportunity cuz he's not a bust, but get rid of Zadina cuz he is a bust.

Ras was a draft reach...  he has size and a defensive game that makes him more flexible (top 6 or bottom 6) and he's been more productive offensively than Zadina who is an offense only option who was was projected Ascari top 3 pick.  And yes draft position matters... if we drafted Zadina in the 7th round people would be thrilled., we wasted a top 10 pick on a waiver caliber player. 

[AtlantaHotWings 987]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Is Ras a bust? IIRC, Ras was like a 9th overall pick and hasn't really been any better than Zadina at this point. But everyone wants Ras to get more opportunity cuz he's not a bust, but get rid of Zadina cuz he is a bust.

I don't believe Ras shot his mouth off either "I will fill their nets with pucks" I WISH that had happened!! Also with his size I think it's taken Ras a bit more time to get going and I think he will keep improving. Zadina can't bigger he can't process faster so let's pray that he hits stride on the 3rd line otherwise it will be curtains I think for him. 

 

From Mlive article https://www.mlive.com/redwings/2022/08/red-wings-mailbag-how-world-juniors-affects-personnel-decisions.html

      Q: Filip Zadina is still not signed. Can anything be read into that? - Ben

      A: No. He'll be signed before the start of training camp. Being a restricted free agent wasn't arbitration eligible, he has no other options. No one is going to sign him to an offer sheet. The Red Wings will sign him on their terms.

Going to be interesting to see what Yzerguy offers the net filler...

Edited August 22, 2022 by AtlantaHotWings
add info

[mackel 681]

1 hour ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

I don't believe Ras shot his mouth off either "I will fill their nets with pucks" I WISH that had happened!! Also with his size I think it's taken Ras a bit more time to get going and I think he will keep improving. Zadina can't bigger he can't process faster so let's pray that he hits stride on the 3rd line otherwise it will be curtains I think for him. 

 

From Mlive article https://www.mlive.com/redwings/2022/08/red-wings-mailbag-how-world-juniors-affects-personnel-decisions.html

      Q: Filip Zadina is still not signed. Can anything be read into that? - Ben

      A: No. He'll be signed before the start of training camp. Being a restricted free agent wasn't arbitration eligible, he has no other options. No one is going to sign him to an offer sheet. The Red Wings will sign him on their terms.

Going to be interesting to see what Yzerguy offers the net filler...

2 years at league minimum... that's my offer.  I'd settle at league minimum plus 150k for 2 years.

If he doesn't like the offer GTFO we have players just as good wanting your roster spot.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, mackel said:

2 years at league minimum... that's my offer.  I'd settle at league minimum plus 150k for 2 years.

If he doesn't like the offer GTFO we have players just as good wanting your roster spot.

I love how the haters imagine him to be a malcontent.  In reality, he's a happy, healthy 22 year old young man playing pro hockey for a good living.

 

"I"d offer him league minimum, tell him to get bent, and spit on him.  That jerk can suck the high hard one."

 

Meanwhile Yzerman is just waiting to see if anything else develops in the offseason before he takes care of Zadina.  Standard Operating Procedure for a good GM.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, mackel said:

Ras was a draft reach...  he has size and a defensive game that makes him more flexible (top 6 or bottom 6) and he's been more productive offensively than Zadina who is an offense only option who was was projected Ascari top 3 pick.  And yes draft position matters... if we drafted Zadina in the 7th round people would be thrilled., we wasted a top 10 pick on a waiver caliber player. 

 

3 hours ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

I don't believe Ras shot his mouth off either "I will fill their nets with pucks" I WISH that had happened!! Also with his size I think it's taken Ras a bit more time to get going and I think he will keep improving. Zadina can't bigger he can't process faster so let's pray that he hits stride on the 3rd line otherwise it will be curtains I think for him. 

 

From Mlive article https://www.mlive.com/redwings/2022/08/red-wings-mailbag-how-world-juniors-affects-personnel-decisions.html

      Q: Filip Zadina is still not signed. Can anything be read into that? - Ben

      A: No. He'll be signed before the start of training camp. Being a restricted free agent wasn't arbitration eligible, he has no other options. No one is going to sign him to an offer sheet. The Red Wings will sign .him on their terms.

Going to be interesting to see what Yzerguy offers the net filler...

Irrelevant. Both were top 10 picks. reach or not, you dont draft players in the top 10 expecting them to be bottom 6 forwards.

Rasmussen is averaging .31 points per game. Zadina is averaging .38 points per game. Ras is not the better point producer. He is actually a worse scorer despite being bigger and having an extra year of development.

Zadina has been a huge disappointment.  But so has Rasmussen. And yet you guys are clamoring to trade the younger, better scorer while wanting the older, lesser scorer to stay and get more ice time.

Not logical.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

4 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

Irrelevant. Both were top 10 picks. reach or not, you dont draft players in the top 10 expecting them to be bottom 6 forwards.

Rasmussen is averaging .31 points per game. Zadina is averaging .38 points per game. Ras is not the better point producer. He is actually a worse scorer despite being bigger and having an extra year of development.

Zadina has been a huge disappointment.  But so has Rasmussen. And yet you guys are clamoring to trade the younger, better scorer while wanting the older, lesser scorer to stay and get more ice time.

Not logical.

FACTS

[bIueadams 776]

4 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Is Ras a bust? IIRC, Ras was like a 9th overall pick and hasn't really been any better than Zadina at this point. But everyone wants Ras to get more opportunity cuz he's not a bust, but get rid of Zadina cuz he is a bust.

Zadina, Ras, and Veleno have all been relative busts so far. 

But Ras brings the size element that will keep him in an NHL job for years. All he has to do is keep skating decently, keep playing defense decently, and gaining weight, and He'll remain an NHLer for a good while. If he picks up his scoring along the way thats an added bonus.

Zadina and Veleno dont have that luxury. They have to score or they might be out of a job completely. Maybe Veleno can turn himself into a Helm type, but i dont see that happening for Zadina. Much too timid. Much too incapable in the D zone. 

9 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

Irrelevant. Both were top 10 picks. reach or not, you dont draft players in the top 10 expecting them to be bottom 6 forwards.

Rasmussen is averaging .31 points per game. Zadina is averaging .38 points per game. Ras is not the better point producer. He is actually a worse scorer despite being bigger and having an extra year of development.

Zadina has been a huge disappointment.  But so has Rasmussen. And yet you guys are clamoring to trade the younger, better scorer while wanting the older, lesser scorer to stay and get more ice time.

Not logical.

Points per ice time

Edited August 23, 2022 by bIueadams

[bIueadams 776]

Last season Ras scored 1.33 pts per 60 minutes. Zadina scored 0.95 pts per 60 minutes. Ras did that while being deployed in the D zone disproportinately more often than Zadina. And most often with worse linemates. 

Ras was easily the better offensive player last year. 

Im not even trying to build Ras up. Hes been a dissapointment too. Zadina has just been THAT BAD. While also bringing nothing else to the table. 

Does Zadina kill penalties? Does he take a large amount of defensive zone starts? Does he take draws? No... he takes sheltered offensive minutes with great linemates and does less with it then Ras does from a bottom 6 defensive role. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

Last season Ras scored 1.33 pts per 60 minutes. Zadina scored 0.95 pts per 60 minutes. Ras did that while being deployed in the D zone disproportinately more often than Zadina. And most often with worse linemates. 

Ras was easily the better offensive player last year. 

Im not even trying to build Ras up. Hes been a dissapointment too. Zadina has just been THAT BAD. While also bringing nothing else to the table. 

Does Zadina kill penalties? Does he take a large amount of defensive zone starts? Does he take draws? No... he takes sheltered offensive minutes with great linemates and does less with it then Ras does from a bottom 6 defensive role. 

Zadina is also NOT a center!  He doesnt play goalie either!

[AtlantaHotWings 987]

8 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Zadina is also NOT a center!  He doesnt play goalie either!

and he doesn't score either

[redw1ngs 149]

14 hours ago, mackel said:

Ras was a draft reach...  he has size and a defensive game that makes him more flexible (top 6 or bottom 6) and he's been more productive offensively than Zadina who is an offense only option who was was projected Ascari top 3 pick.  And yes draft position matters... if we drafted Zadina in the 7th round people would be thrilled., we wasted a top 10 pick on a waiver caliber player. 

This here explains alot. Draft position shouldnt matter it def doesnt to SY.

10 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Last season Ras scored 1.33 pts per 60 minutes. Zadina scored 0.95 pts per 60 minutes. Ras did that while being deployed in the D zone disproportinately more often than Zadina. And most often with worse linemates. 

Ras was easily the better offensive player last year. 

Im not even trying to build Ras up. Hes been a dissapointment too. Zadina has just been THAT BAD. While also bringing nothing else to the table. 

Does Zadina kill penalties? Does he take a large amount of defensive zone starts? Does he take draws? No... he takes sheltered offensive minutes with great linemates and does less with it then Ras does from a bottom 6 defensive role. 

Pretty convenient to use last seasons stats Zadinas worst and Rasmusens best.

Heres the breakdown by season.

Rasmusen

d+1: 0gp

d+2: 62gp-8g-10a-18pts-0.29pts/gp-1.44pts/60

d+3: 0gp

d+4: 40gp-3g-9a-12pts-0.30pts/gp-1.22pts/60

d+5: 80gp-15g-12a-27pts-0.34pts/gp-1.39pts/60

Zadina

d+1: 9gp-1g-2a-3pts-0.33pts/gp-1.30pts/60

d+2: 28gp-8g-7a-15pts-0.54pts/gp-2.12pts/60

d+3: 49gp-6g-13a-19pts-0.39pts/gp-1.38pts/60

d+4: 74gp-10g-14a-24pts-0.32pts/gp-1.37pts/60

Each d+ season Zadinas been better then Rasmusen. Both had there best statistical seasons in there d+2 seasons. Zadina just needs to get 0.35pts/gp-0.40pts/60 to again better Rasmusen but obv he should be aiming higher then that.

Both were drafted to high but if they can get back to there d+2 production everyone would be happy.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, redw1ngs said:

This here explains alot. Draft position shouldnt matter it def doesnt to SY.

Pretty convenient to use last seasons stats Zadinas worst and Rasmusens best.

Heres the breakdown by season.

Rasmusen

d+1: 0gp

d+2: 62gp-8g-10a-18pts-0.29pts/gp-1.44pts/60

d+3: 0gp

d+4: 40gp-3g-9a-12pts-0.30pts/gp-1.22pts/60

d+5: 80gp-15g-12a-27pts-0.34pts/gp-1.39pts/60

Zadina

d+1: 9gp-1g-2a-3pts-0.33pts/gp-1.30pts/60

d+2: 28gp-8g-7a-15pts-0.54pts/gp-2.12pts/60

d+3: 49gp-6g-13a-19pts-0.39pts/gp-1.38pts/60

d+4: 74gp-10g-14a-24pts-0.32pts/gp-1.37pts/60

Each d+ season Zadinas been better then Rasmusen. Both had there best statistical seasons in there d+2 seasons. Zadina just needs to get 0.35pts/gp-0.40pts/60 to again better Rasmusen but obv he should be aiming higher then that.

Both were drafted to high but if they can get back to there d+2 production everyone would be happy.

Zadina and Ras are both fine.

[bIueadams 776]

If youre gonna use scoring/60 if you have to use 5v5 play. Otherwise youre inflating Zadinas stats with PP time.

Ras:

D+2: 1.06 + worse linesmates

D+4: 1.05 + worse linemates

D+5: 1.33 + PK + worse linemates

Zadina:

D+1: 0.0 + better linemates

D+2: 1.25 + better linemates

D+3: 1.16 + better linemates

D+4: 0.95 + better linemates

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

3 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

If youre gonna use scoring/60 if you have to use 5v5 play. Otherwise youre inflating Zadinas stats with PP time.

Ras:

D+2: 1.06 + worse linesmates

D+4: 1.05 + worse linemates

D+5: 1.33 + PK + worse linemates

Zadina:

D+1: 0.0 + better linemates

D+2: 1.25 + better linemates

D+3: 1.16 + better linemates

D+4: 0.95 + better linemates

This is the most pointless debate on LGW in history.  Which of our busts is the worst bust?  ha ha ha ha

[redw1ngs 149]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

If youre gonna use scoring/60 if you have to use 5v5 play. Otherwise youre inflating Zadinas stats with PP time.

Ras:

D+2: 1.06 + worse linesmates

D+4: 1.05 + worse linemates

D+5: 1.33 + PK + worse linemates

Zadina:

D+1: 0.0 + better linemates

D+2: 1.25 + better linemates

D+3: 1.16 + better linemates

D+4: 0.95 + better linemates

Why do you think Zadina has got better linemates every year? Maybe management have a higher view of him then bobby and joey on letsgowings.com?

Rasmusen has got looks with better linemates and hasnt looked better then Zadina imo.

[kipwinger 8,524]

56 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

Why do you think Zadina has got better linemates every year? Maybe management have a higher view of him then bobby and joey on letsgowings.com?

Rasmusen has got looks with better linemates and hasnt looked better then Zadina imo.

I doubt management is "higher" on Zadina. Of the two he's the only one that was healthy scratched (several times) last season. Additionally, of the two Zadina was the one called out (by name) by Yzerman this offseason as a player who needed to take a big step next year.

The reasons Zadina gets better linemates are probably several. One, we're extremely thin at center in the NHL and Yzerman and Blashill both routinely stated that they viewed Ras as a shutdown center and used him as such until late last season. Rasmussen started in the offensive zone less than any other regular on the team by a pretty sizeable margin. He was absolutely buried in the d-zone largely because of his perceived "role" as a shutdown center.

Second, if you look at Ras's goals from last season you'll quickly notice he generates much of it himself. He's less reliant on his linemates. Seriously, watch how many times he beats a goalie clean on an oddman rush with Sundqvist or Erne as the other guy.

Third, Zadina is extremely limited defensively and can only be used safely in offensive situations. The same thing is true of Suter and Fabbri (his two most common linemates last season). All of them rate out quite badly in terms of defensive metrics. So they got used on the offensive zone a lot with the expectation that it would limit their defensive lapses and maximize their strengths. Conversely, Ras's scoring came largely despite his usage. and he still managed more goals, points, and primary assists than Zadina.

[mackel 681]

15 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

Irrelevant. Both were top 10 picks. reach or not, you dont draft players in the top 10 expecting them to be bottom 6 forwards.

Rasmussen is averaging .31 points per game. Zadina is averaging .38 points per game. Ras is not the better point producer. He is actually a worse scorer despite being bigger and having an extra year of development.

Zadina has been a huge disappointment.  But so has Rasmussen. And yet you guys are clamoring to trade the younger, better scorer while wanting the older, lesser scorer to stay and get more ice time.

Not logical.

Ras wasn't a smart pick at 9, no doubt... but he's a better player than Zadina.  It's not even close.  Zadina needs to be babysat on the ice.  Ras has the size, strength and increasingly the mentality to be a line 2/3 power forward.

Right now given hindsight I'd swallow the Ras pick but not the Zadina pick. 

15 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

FACTS

Not facts and not correct.  Double cluster fack.

15 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Last season Ras scored 1.33 pts per 60 minutes. Zadina scored 0.95 pts per 60 minutes. Ras did that while being deployed in the D zone disproportinately more often than Zadina. And most often with worse linemates. 

Ras was easily the better offensive player last year. 

Im not even trying to build Ras up. Hes been a dissapointment too. Zadina has just been THAT BAD. While also bringing nothing else to the table. 

Does Zadina kill penalties? Does he take a large amount of defensive zone starts? Does he take draws? No... he takes sheltered offensive minutes with great linemates and does less with it then Ras does from a bottom 6 defensive role. 

^^ THIS ^^

[mackel 681]

1 hour ago, redw1ngs said:

Why do you think Zadina has got better linemates every year? Maybe management have a higher view of him then bobby and joey on letsgowings.com?

Rasmusen has got looks with better linemates and hasnt looked better then Zadina imo.

He has better linemates because he's a one trick pony... unless he's scoring (which he isn't) he's useless... think Pulkinen, Brunner, etc.  It's our bad luck our GM just looked at the TSN draft list and didn't understand why Busty was available at 6.

 

[redw1ngs 149]

14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I doubt management is "higher" on Zadina. Of the two he's the only one that was healthy scratched (several times) last season. Additionally, of the two Zadina was the one called out (by name) by Yzerman this offseason as a player who needed to take a big step next year.

The reasons Zadina gets better linemates are probably several. One, we're extremely thin at center in the NHL and Yzerman and Blashill both routinely stated that they viewed Ras as a shutdown center and used him as such until late last season. Rasmussen started in the offensive zone less than any other regular on the team by a pretty sizeable margin. He was absolutely buried in the d-zone largely because of his perceived "role" as a shutdown center.

Second, if you look at Ras's goals from last season you'll quickly notice he generates much of it himself. He's less reliant on his linemates. Seriously, watch how many times he beats a goalie clean on an oddman rush with Sundqvist or Erne as the other guy.

Third, Zadina is extremely limited defensively and can only be used safely in offensive situations. The same thing is true of Suter and Fabbri (his two most common linemates last season). All of them rate out quite badly in terms of defensive metrics. So they got used on the offensive zone a lot with the expectation that it would limit their defensive lapses and maximize their strengths. Conversely, Ras's scoring came largely despite his usage. and he still managed more goals, points, and primary assists than Zadina.

The man that healthy scratched Zadina is no longer employed by the DRW nothing to do with current management. SY probly called Zadina out by name to light a fire under him because he knows hes capable of more then hes shown. his d+2 was impressive.

So Zadina gets more ice time with better linemates because were deeper at w then c? What kinda backwards logic is that? Since were so thin at c shouldnt Ras get more ice time with better linemates instead of being stapled to the 4th line?

Its not really fair to compare Rasmusens d+5 season to Zadinas d+4 season. Ras just had his breakout season lets see if Zadina can have a breakout or at least build on last season.