10/4 Preseason GDT - Black Hawks at Red Wings - 7:30 PM EDT

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

After spending his first three seasons in Grand Rapids. 

Probably for the best if he spends at least a year in gr tbh. The worse we do this year, the better forward we get in a great forward heavy draft. The worst thing this team could do this year is make a fluke run and make the playoffs. 

[_SP_ 129]

We lost because it's the preseason and we were running 8 D-men, 4 of whom will not be in the starting lineup this year. Leddy, Seider, Hronek and (blegh) Dekeyser were your only NHL D on the ice against a loaded Blackhawks team. And even Dekeyser is so slow now that he belongs as #6/#7. You were missing Stecher, Staal, even Oesterle as they were checking out the GR guys.

[Dabura 12,207]

11 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

and Seider's been as good or better. 

Yup. Was nice to see him get on the board last night with a goal and an assist. Was especially nice to see his goal come off a half-slapper clapper (albeit on a screen), as his shot – or lack thereof – is pretty much the only deficiency in his game. But he's been working on it and I don't think it's going to be much of an issue.

Of course, scoring isn't really the story with Seider. The story is he's 20 and he hasn't played a single real NHL game and I already trust him in a heavy-lifting role more than I trust any of our other defensemen in a heavy-lifting role. Dude is going to be the definition of a cornerstone player. Same with Raymond.

2 hours ago, _SP_ said:

We lost because it's the preseason and we were running 8 D-men, 4 of whom will not be in the starting lineup this year. Leddy, Seider, Hronek and (blegh) Dekeyser were your only NHL D on the ice against a loaded Blackhawks team. And even Dekeyser is so slow now that he belongs as #6/#7. You were missing Stecher, Staal, even Oesterle as they were checking out the GR guys.

On paper, we had no business making that game competitive.

I don't like moral victories, but...statement made, message sent.

 

[Dabura 12,207]

10 hours ago, Euro_Twins said:

They've both been phenomenal. 

 

I'm going to call it now though. Lucas Raymond goes down as the best player drafted in 2020. Not Lafreniere, not Byfield, not stutzle, but Raymond!

Which, honestly, wouldn't even be a huge shock.

I talked about this at length in a different thread, but it bears repeating: Going into that season, everyone was expecting Raymond to 1) make a decent – possibly strong – case for going 1st overall, and 2) go 2nd or 3rd overall. Dude's been a known stud for years.

Sure, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sour over missing out on the guys who ended up going 1-2-3. But getting Lucas Raymond as a "consolation prize" is insanely good fortune.

No one wants to say it, but there's more than a little Datsyuk and Zetterberg in Raymond.

 

[kipwinger 8,520]

1 hour ago, BarkBurgerman said:

Finally had a chance to actively watch preseason last night (Not just in the background while I'm on my PC).

Obvious bright spot: RayRay
IMO obviously the best offensive forward besides maybe Vrana. Probably already better than Bertuzzi and Larkin, the later two being more complete players. I won't speculate how many games he gets, but I think he gets more than his 9 easily.

Less obvious bright spot: Bobby
Even in the first when we were getting bombed on I was liking how he was playing. I think we're going to need more of that veteran maturity up front this season. Also forgot he has some weight to throw around and liked some of his board work.

(trigger warning) still sucks: Zadina
I'm starting to think the better comparison for him is Tomas Jurco, not Jiri Hudler. Just like Jurco the soft creative shooting hands are not as advertised. Almost 90 games into the NHL and he still is barely carving out even mediocre performances. You compare that to how Raymond plays out the gate, and maybe some of you can start to see my disappointment with this kid. There were a series of plays last night where he received a pass along the neutral boards like 3 or 4 times in a row and was smothered off the puck each time. After the third I was giggling. The kid is lost in the NHL game, and insanely keep going back to dry wells expecting it magically work out for him the next time. This is our Yakupov. I think I'd rather push him down to the third where maybe he can make some progress in a sheltered 3rd line role. Let Bobby play 2nd line right wing.

 

Here's a thing I noticed about Zadina last night that boggles the mind. He almost never hits the net with his shots. Even on the powerplay. He's supposed to be some sniper and his shot sucks. The best part of his game is his forechecking and stick lifting. He's a defensive forward at best right now. Totally agree, put him with Ras and Erne and see what he does down there because he's swimming in deep waters in the top six. Let Bobby be on line two until Vrana gets back.

Edited October 5, 2021 by kipwinger

[F.Michael 4,590]

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Here's a thing I noticed about Zadina last night that boggles the mind. He almost never hits the net with his shots. Even on the powerplay. He's supposed to be some sniper and his shot sucks. The best part of his game is his forechecking and stick lifting. He's a defensive forward at best right now. Totally agree, put him with Ras and Erne and see what he does down there because he's swimming in deep waters in the top six. Let Bobby be on line two until Vrana gets back.

I noticed the exact same thing last season - his accuracy is well below average (I think our former logo hunter Mikeal Samuelsson was more lethal).

Same goes for his ability to receive/corral the puck from a teammate - just not very good.

[kipwinger 8,520]

4 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I noticed the exact same thing last season - his accuracy is well below average (I think our former logo hunter Mikeal Samuelsson was more lethal).

Same goes for his ability to receive/corral the puck from a teammate - just not very good.

When Vrana is back Zadina needs to be moved off the right flank on the powerplay. He telegraphs that one timer and then misses constantly. Put him in the middle, or on the opposite flank to make plays. Something. At the very least Blashill should absolutely forbid him from using anything other than a wrist shot, he has ZERO accuracy with him onetime/slapshot.

To his credit I think he's genuinely good defensively. He's a puck hound and his ability to strip pucks led to a lot of extra Red Wings zone time last night. There were a number of sequences when he and Raymond basically made it impossible for Chicago to break out. But offensively he's just not as good as billed.

[F.Michael 4,590]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

When Vrana is back Zadina needs to be moved off the right flank on the powerplay. He telegraphs that one timer and then misses constantly. Put him in the middle, or on the opposite flank to make plays. Something. At the very least Blashill should absolutely forbid him from using anything other than a wrist shot, he has ZERO accuracy with him onetime/slapshot.

To his credit I think he's genuinely good defensively. He's a puck hound and his ability to strip pucks led to a lot of extra Red Wings zone time last night. There were a number of sequences when he and Raymond basically made it impossible for Chicago to break out. But offensively he's just not as good as billed.

Zadina was at his best when forechecking  last night - getting the puck to Raymond to work his magic.

[mackel 679]

8 hours ago, BarkBurgerman said:

 

 

Gahhhh I've been saying this for years. His ability to strip the puck is datsyukian-lite. I need to go back and quote myself. I will praise him up and down for this, but the rest of his game is non-existent.

For being billed as a sniper his accuracy is nothing. Then you watch Raymond last night effortlessly picking corners...

Paging Dr. @mackel

@BarkBurgerman  for my fans...

Zagina = BUST

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

We played ok.  Goalie was a sieve.

[Dabura 12,207]

On 10/5/2021 at 12:33 AM, Euro_Twins said:

Probably for the best if he spends at least a year in gr tbh. The worse we do this year, the better forward we get in a great forward heavy draft. The worst thing this team could do this year is make a fluke run and make the playoffs. 

What I'm getting from this is...

Raymond + playoffs

vs.

No Raymond + no playoffs + drafting 6-10th overall

NICE TRY, LOTTO GODS, BUT WE DON'T ANSWER TO YOU ANYMORE. #KissMyTuchusGiveMeLucas

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

7 hours ago, Dabura said:

What I'm getting from this is...

Raymond + playoffs

vs.

No Raymond + no playoffs + drafting 6-10th overall

NICE TRY, LOTTO GODS, BUT WE DON'T ANSWER TO YOU ANYMORE. #KissMyTuchusGiveMeLucas

we are going to stink with him.  People are acting like we are one piece away.  We are FOUR.  We are missing a legit first line and a legit LH 1D.  We need to dradt Wright and pick up some other pieces the next year as well.

[Spongewingredpants 75]

glad to see a thread thats not from 2011.

Wings lost against an almost opening night Chicago Roster. Ill take it 

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

35 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

we are going to stink with him.  People are acting like we are one piece away.  We are FOUR.  We are missing a legit first line and a legit LH 1D.  We need to dradt Wright and pick up some other pieces the next year as well.

Saying we're going to stink with him is a bit of a stretch imo. Even losing games I don't think we will stink this year, nor like the past couple anyway. 

 

Also were about 2 pieces away not 4. Top pairing D, and a top line center

[Akakabuto 1,749]

32 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

we are going to stink with him.  People are acting like we are one piece away.  We are FOUR.  We are missing a legit first line and a legit LH 1D.  We need to dradt Wright and pick up some other pieces the next year as well.

We are never going to have five ”sure things” in our prospect pool. None of the current top teams ever had that. You pick up 2-3 pieces at the top of the draft that quickly establish themselves as future core players. We have Seider and Raymond. We need another one, definitely, but the rest takes time. Draft and develop. Draft and develop. Draft and develop.

Lets look at Tampa(bc we love to look at Tampa). It took over 10 years from drafting their ”sure things” to win the cup. The rest of the core was drafted 2-6 years after Hedman-Stamkos. 

6 minutes ago, Euro_Twins said:

Also were about 2 pieces away not 4. Top pairing D, and a top line center

This. And if Edvinsson and Cossa fullfills their potential we are one away. 

[Akakabuto 1,749]

And for all the bashing of Larkin, Zadina and Hronek(not so much): They will be support players on this team. They will be our Killorn, Cirelli and McDonagh.

The only reason to be concerned about this teams future is the hole at 1C. Which is a big concern that needs to be adressed sooner rather than later.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

On 10/6/2021 at 8:28 AM, Akakabuto said:

We are never going to have five ”sure things” in our prospect pool. None of the current top teams ever had that. You pick up 2-3 pieces at the top of the draft that quickly establish themselves as future core players. We have Seider and Raymond. We need another one, definitely, but the rest takes time. Draft and develop. Draft and develop. Draft and develop.

Lets look at Tampa(bc we love to look at Tampa). It took over 10 years from drafting their ”sure things” to win the cup. The rest of the core was drafted 2-6 years after Hedman-Stamkos. 

This. And if Edvinsson and Cossa fullfills their potential we are one away. 

but we need to draft the Hedman and Stamkos guys still.  Thats the problem.  Raymond = Braydon Point.  Seider = Sergeychov.  We need to remove the rose colored glasses and recognize our talent deficiency.

[Akakabuto 1,749]

13 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

but we need to draft the Hedman and Stamkos guys still.  Thats the problem.  

As I said the hole at 1C is whats need to be adressed before we need to take the next step in the rebuild.

 

13 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Raymond = Braydon Point.

How can Raymond = Point be a problem?

 

13 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Seider = Sergeychov.

 Stop being silly. Edvinsson = Sergachev

[Dabura 12,207]

On 10/6/2021 at 10:45 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

we are going to stink with him.  People are acting like we are one piece away.  We are FOUR.  We are missing a legit first line and a legit LH 1D.  We need to dradt Wright and pick up some other pieces the next year as well.

On 10/7/2021 at 7:53 PM, Jonas Mahonas said:

but we need to draft the Hedman and Stamkos guys still.  Thats the problem.  Raymond = Braydon Point.  Seider = Sergeychov.  We need to remove the rose colored glasses and recognize our talent deficiency.

If you're pinning your hopes and dreams as a Wings fan on the Wings winning lotteries (or even just one lottery) and drafting sure-thing superstars (or even just one sure-thing superstar), you're setting yourself up for disappointment. That ship has sailed. We have to do it the hard way – and that's what we're doing.

Fortunately, the returns on Yzerman's 1st round investments are looking pretty good so far.

Seider? He's about as good a 20-year-old defenseman as a rebuilding organization could realistically hope to have. He projects as an all-situations cornerstone 1D. I see Sergachev as his floor.

Raymond? He's about as good a 19-year-old scoring forward as a rebuilding organization could realistically hope to have. You're right that Raymond and Point are similar players. You're wrong, I think, to believe "Raymond = Point" is in any way problematic; Point is indisputably one of Tampa's best, most valuable players.

Fun Point facts:

• Point's 2020 playoffs – 33 points in 23 games en route to winning Cup
• Point's 2021 playoffs – 23 points in 23 games en route to recapturing the Cup

Granted, playing on a team with Hedman and Stamkos (et al.) helps Point's numbers. But, worth noting:

• Stamkos played a grand total of one 2020 playoff game.
• 2021 was a different story; he played 23 games. How many points? 18. So, five fewer than Point.

Edvinsson? He's 6'6. He was #1 on Dallas's draft board. He's a top-pairing SHLer in his D+1 season. He could end up being better than Seider.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Dabura