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The 91 of Ryans

New New Prospects Thread

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10 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Mantha is not Raymond. Neither is Beruzzi for that matter. So you're wrong. Again. 

To be wrong again, I'd have needed to be wrong to start with, which I wasn't.   How's your boy Busty Zadina doing? 

36 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yzerman isnt trading any young talent.

Zadina isn't talented... but he is young.

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9 hours ago, Yzerplan said:

Comparing a guy who was 26 at the time and underperforming to players who are under 23 years old with upside and nowhere near their prime. Genius, I tell you!

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13 hours ago, Yzerplan said:

1. Mantha was a developed, underachieving roster player. Unlike Zadina, Ras, or Bert.

2. Past trades does not void my statement.

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On 11/16/2021 at 6:41 PM, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Less space to defend, yes. But he still needs to bulk up, I believe. And there is still a transition. If he isn't good enough to pair with Seider or Hronek in the top 4, give him big minutes in GR. Seider took a year in the AHL to be NHL ready, and he came from a mens league too. If Edvinsson makes the jump in his draft +1 year, that would be huge.

Edvinsson is 6'5" and 207 lbs.
Seider is 6'4" and 196 lbs.

Literally already 10+ lbs heavier than Mo at only an inch taller.

Over the summer Simon added an inch in height and 5 lbs to his frame. I expect him to come into camp next year at 210+ lbs and be competing with Seider for top ice time. I don't think he plays a single game in the AHL, unless it's for the Griffins in the playoffs this year.

On 11/17/2021 at 8:26 AM, The 91 of Ryans said:

Mantha is not Raymond. Neither is Beruzzi for that matter. So you're wrong. Again. 

As I've said b4, a star center should be able to make most dummys look great and not need star wingers to get his numbers where they need to be. Larkin doesn't have that. So it would still be very nice to put a truly elite 1C on top of him.

On 11/17/2021 at 11:04 AM, redw1ngs said:

I came here from hfboards because that place was becoming a wasteland and someone recommended this place but this place is no better. A lot of horrible opinions here maybe the worst ive seen.

We have WAY more fun here.

Edited by bIueadams

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3 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

 

As I've said b4, a star center should be able to make most dummys look great and not need star wingers to get his numbers where they need to be. Larkin doesn't have that. So it would still be very nice to put a truly elite 1C on top of him.

 

Being better is better. Gotcha. Zero argument. 

But that's not what I was debating with Ol' Fukarooney there

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1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

Edvinsson is 6'5" and 207 lbs.
Seider is 6'4" and 196 lbs.

Literally already 10+ lbs heavier than Mo at only an inch taller.

Over the summer Simon added an inch in height and 5 lbs to his frame. I expect him to come into camp next year at 210+ lbs and be competing with Seider for top ice time. I don't think he plays a single game in the AHL, unless it's for the Griffins in the playoffs this year.

I should clarify what I mean by bulking up. Putting on weight? Yes. But its also learning to stay balanced on your feet when playing against bigger players who can knock you on your arse, keeping your center of gravity low, gaining strength in the right places, etc. He may have an advantage with conditioning though. Less ice, less skating.

I am not just talking about putting on weight, but also the strength and conditioning that goes with it.

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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2 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I should clarify what I mean by bulking up. Putting on weight? Yes. But its also learning to stay balanced on your feet when playing against bigger players who can knock you on your arse, keeping your center of gravity low, gaining strength in the right places, etc. He may have an advantage with conditioning though. Less ice, less skating.

The players in the NHL are not that much bigger than the players in the SHL. You can´t compare the SHL with the AHL where mostly young prospects play. I don´t think that the physical aspect will play a role in him playing NHL or not. He´s well prepared physically.

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1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I should clarify what I mean by bulking up. Putting on weight? Yes. But its also learning to stay balanced on your feet when playing against bigger players who can knock you on your arse, keeping your center of gravity low, gaining strength in the right places, etc. He may have an advantage with conditioning though. Less ice, less skating.

I am not just talking about putting on weight, but also the strength and conditioning that goes with it.

He's playing top minutes in the SHL against grown men. I don't think conditioning or strength is a concern, especially at his size. 

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8 hours ago, mackel said:

100%

Do you watch the games or just stat watch? His raw stats arent near good enough but his underlying stats are real good. Im not sure if hell ever live up to the 6oa hype but he still looks like a real good top6 winger to me.

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37 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

Do you watch the games or just stat watch? His raw stats arent near good enough but his underlying stats are real good. Im not sure if hell ever live up to the 6oa hype but he still looks like a real good top6 winger to me.

A couple of points on this:

1. You don't win games with theoretical points. You win them with actual points. The production a guy SHOULD have is irrelevant if he doesn't turn it around at some point. We're all still waiting on that turn around with Zadina.

2. We had this same EXACT conversation with Mantha. His underlying numbers were great and all the analytics guys were positive he was due for a big breakout, year after year they predicted he'd be a 60-70 pts winger. He still has yet to score 50 NHL points in a season.

Conclusion: You count production when it's on the board. And you won't win games with possession metrics. There are plenty of players who have good shot generation numbers who never score very much at all (Brendan Smith), and some who bad metrics who score a lot (Rasmus Ristolainen). I don't know which Zadina will be, but we need to be careful we don't confuse a guy who can't finish with a guy who's snake bitten. The longer Zadina goes without producing, the more it looks like the former and not the latter.

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6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

A couple of points on this:

1. You don't win games with theoretical points. You win them with actual points. The production a guy SHOULD have is irrelevant if he doesn't turn it around at some point. We're all still waiting on that turn around with Zadina.

2. We had this same EXACT conversation with Mantha. His underlying numbers were great and all the analytics guys were positive he was due for a big breakout, year after year they predicted he'd be a 60-70 pts winger. He still has yet to score 50 NHL points in a season.

Conclusion: You count production when it's on the board. And you won't win games with possession metrics. There are plenty of players who have good shot generation numbers who never score very much at all (Brendan Smith), and some who bad metrics who score a lot (Rasmus Ristolainen). I don't know which Zadina will be, but we need to be careful we don't confuse a guy who can't finish with a guy who's snake bitten. The longer Zadina goes without producing, the more it looks like the former and not the latter.

This season he basically has the same stats as his two line mates. 

1. Is this a bad line?

2. Is he the bad player on this line? 

3. Is Fabbri a bust? 

4. Zadina has the best metrics on this line. So how much of Suter and Fabbri's success is accounted for by this? 

I think your take is pretty even-handed. Counting stats are important. Like I've said many times I'm not a Zadina apologist and don't really have any compulsion to defend the guy. But I become a weary MF when I have to wade through constant troll-speak (not U) regarding Zadina from one numskull and his fire-stoking handler.........

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Just now, The 91 of Ryans said:

This season he basically has the same stats as his two line mates. 

1. Is this a bad line?

2. Is he the bad player on this line? 

3. Is Fabbri a bust? 

4. Zadina has the best metrics on this line. So how much of Suter and Fabbri's success is accounted for by this? 

I think your take is pretty even-handed. Counting stats are important. Like I've said many times I'm not a Zadina apologist and don't really have any compulsion to defend the guy. But I become a weary MF when I have to wade through constant troll-speak (not U) regarding Zadina from one numskull and his fire-stoking handler.........

I don't think that line is all that good, at least not as a 2nd line. None of them have the production a good team would get out of a line averaging 15(ish) minutes a night. I think they'd be a decent 3rd line. As you've seen elsewhere, when I propose a 2nd line it's usually Veleno with Roslovic (placeholder for a new 2C) and Vrana.

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Just now, kipwinger said:

I don't think that line is all that good, at least not as a 2nd line. None of them have the production a good team would get out of a line averaging 15(ish) minutes a night. I think they'd be a decent 3rd line. As you've seen elsewhere, when I propose a 2nd line it's usually Veleno with Roslovic (placeholder for a new 2C) and Vrana.

I can't really disagree with this. 

I just think it's funny when someone says they'd like to see Fabbri (currently in his final hockey form)  re-signed because he used to play beer pong with Bertuzzi in Guelph but Zadina (same stats - still developing) should be skewered. 

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19 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

A couple of points on this:

1. You don't win games with theoretical points. You win them with actual points. The production a guy SHOULD have is irrelevant if he doesn't turn it around at some point. We're all still waiting on that turn around with Zadina.

2. We had this same EXACT conversation with Mantha. His underlying numbers were great and all the analytics guys were positive he was due for a big breakout, year after year they predicted he'd be a 60-70 pts winger. He still has yet to score 50 NHL points in a season.

Conclusion: You count production when it's on the board. And you won't win games with possession metrics. There are plenty of players who have good shot generation numbers who never score very much at all (Brendan Smith), and some who bad metrics who score a lot (Rasmus Ristolainen). I don't know which Zadina will be, but we need to be careful we don't confuse a guy who can't finish with a guy who's snake bitten. The longer Zadina goes without producing, the more it looks like the former and not the latter.

My post was in response to Zadina isnt talented not Zadina doesnt score enough. The former is false but the latter is true. youd be hard pressed to find anyone happy with Zadinas point totals including the player/coaches/management but im sure all are happy with his play on both sides of the puck.

The production a player should have is relevant when talking about a 21yo consistently driving play. Mantha was lazy af Zadina works his a$$ off.

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With Vancouver wetting the bed so far, I wonder if Pettersson could be had.   He's had a slow start to the season and even though they don't have a cap issue at the moment maybe they panic?    Not sure of the cost, but having another Larkin 2C would be great.

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1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I can't really disagree with this. 

I just think it's funny when someone says they'd like to see Fabbri (currently in his final hockey form)  re-signed because he used to play beer pong with Bertuzzi in Guelph but Zadina (same stats - still developing) should be skewered. 

Sure, I agree with that. Neither are so good that they couldn't be traded if they can help get a decent return. I'm really not desperate to get rid of either of them though. When this team is good again it's not going to be made up entirely of 25 year olds. Guys like Bert, Larkin, and Fabbri are going to be the 30 year old's who have as much value teaching guys how to be good pros as they do on the ice. Similarly the team isn't going to be made up entirely of point-per-game studs like Lucas Raymond either. You're going to need quality 3rd line guys who can chip in offense, play up the lineup in the event of injuries, and don't get torched on defense. Zadina (so fa) fits that bill. And if he improves? Great.

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5 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

My post was in response to Zadina isnt talented not Zadina doesnt score enough. The former is false but the latter is true. youd be hard pressed to find anyone happy with Zadinas point totals including the player/coaches/management but im sure all are happy with his play on both sides of the puck.

The production a player should have is relevant when talking about a 21yo consistently driving play. Mantha was lazy af Zadina works his a$$ off.

I'm not sure I agree with this though. He was drafted to score, and he's not scoring. That's a problem. Darren Helm played good defense, worked his ass off, had good possession metrics (for most of his career) and couldn't score on the chances he generated too. Plenty of 4th line guys have good possession metrics actually. I think we all expect Zadina to be better than that. And if he isn't then I don't think we're really happy with his play. Or at least not as happy as we'd like to be.

I'm genuinely not a Zadina hater. I think there are good aspects to his game. But I think he's in over his head on the 2nd line. Right now I'd probably switch him with Namestnikov.

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30 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

A couple of points on this:

1. You don't win games with theoretical points. You win them with actual points. The production a guy SHOULD have is irrelevant if he doesn't turn it around at some point. We're all still waiting on that turn around with Zadina.

2. We had this same EXACT conversation with Mantha. His underlying numbers were great and all the analytics guys were positive he was due for a big breakout, year after year they predicted he'd be a 60-70 pts winger. He still has yet to score 50 NHL points in a season.

Conclusion: You count production when it's on the board. And you won't win games with possession metrics. There are plenty of players who have good shot generation numbers who never score very much at all (Brendan Smith), and some who bad metrics who score a lot (Rasmus Ristolainen). I don't know which Zadina will be, but we need to be careful we don't confuse a guy who can't finish with a guy who's snake bitten. The longer Zadina goes without producing, the more it looks like the former and not the latter.

Curious as to what age you think we should allow Zadina to reach before we give up.  Gustav Nyquist had his breakout year as a 24 year old.  And by break out year, that means becoming a 45 pt a year player.  Nyquist was also playing alongside our 1C.  Zadina has 105 gp and 44 pts so far in his career.  So he's a few pts away from being a .5 ppg player as a 22 yo who's been playing 2nd line minutes at best.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with where he stands currently OR in how he is progressing.  The guy plays much harder and covers A LOT more ice than Mantha.  He is a good 2-way winger.  Would it be better if he was Lucas Raymonds clone?  Sure.  But we arent playing him on the 1st line with Vrana and Raymond healthy.  So why cant we be happy with a .5 ppg 2nd line winger who hustles, is a good team guy, and doesnt break the bank?  We'd be foolish to dump him.

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23 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

My post was in response to Zadina isnt talented not Zadina doesnt score enough. The former is false but the latter is true. youd be hard pressed to find anyone happy with Zadinas point totals including the player/coaches/management but im sure all are happy with his play on both sides of the puck.

The production a player should have is relevant when talking about a 21yo consistently driving play. Mantha was lazy af Zadina works his a$$ off.

im extremely happy with it.  apparently, everybody on lgw was a 60 pt scorer at age 21.  I cant for the life of me understand how people think Zadina should be scoring 60 pts a season right now.  There are only 3-4 guys who have been able to do that early in their careers, and they were all drafted #1 or #2.

 

Matthews, McDavid, Draisaitl, Eichel, McKinnon

 

These are the guys people are comparing Zadina to and why they feel he's a bust.  Its ridiculous.

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7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm not sure I agree with this though. He was drafted to score, and he's not scoring. That's a problem. Darren Helm played good defense, worked his ass off, had good possession metrics (for most of his career) and couldn't score on the chances he generated too. Plenty of 4th line guys have good possession metrics actually. I think we all expect Zadina to be better than that. And if he isn't then I don't think we're really happy with his play. Or at least not as happy as we'd like to be.

I'm genuinely not a Zadina hater. I think there are good aspects to his game. But I think he's in over his head on the 2nd line. Right now I'd probably switch him with Namestnikov.

I care as much about what Zadina was drafted to be as where he was drafted. Both are irrelevant imo. what matters now is what he has become. He was pegged as a sniper turns out hes more of a 2way playmaker? Im okay with where Zadina is at in his development the points will come.

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2 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Curious as to what age you think we should allow Zadina to reach before we give up.  Gustav Nyquist had his breakout year as a 24 year old.  And by break out year, that means becoming a 45 pt a year player.  Nyquist was also playing alongside our 1C.  Zadina has 105 gp and 44 pts so far in his career.  So he's a few pts away from being a .5 ppg player as a 22 yo who's been playing 2nd line minutes at best.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with where he stands currently OR in how he is progressing.  The guy plays much harder and covers A LOT more ice than Mantha.  He is a good 2-way winger.  Would it be better if he was Lucas Raymonds clone?  Sure.  But we arent playing him on the 1st line with Vrana and Raymond healthy.  So why cant we be happy with a .5 ppg 2nd line winger who hustles, is a good team guy, and doesnt break the bank?  We'd be foolish to dump him.

I've never advocated dumping him. See my posts above. Also, he played almost ALL of last season with Larkin (until he got injured) because Bertuzzi was hurt. Even after Larkin's injury (and Vrana's acquisition) Zadina was still on the top line. I don't mind debating this with you, but it's not helping either of us if we don't get basic facts straight.

2 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

im extremely happy with it.  apparently, everybody on lgw was a 60 pt scorer at age 21.  I cant for the life of me understand how people think Zadina should be scoring 60 pts a season right now.  There are only 3-4 guys who have been able to do that early in their careers, and they were all drafted #1 or #2.

 

Matthews, McDavid, Draisaitl, Eichel, McKinnon

 

These are the guys people are comparing Zadina to and why they feel he's a bust.  Its ridiculous.

I think I'd be happy if he looked capable of scoring 40 pts a season. Nevermind 60 pts. But based on his play so far I"m not at all confident he'll hit that mark in what is now his 3rd professional season.

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