New New Prospects Thread

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

10 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Guys drafted at 6th overall are expected to be that kind of player... I don't care what marcar says. This isn't Tatar or Nyquist that we pleasantly found out could contribute in the top 6. A 6th overall winger is expected to contribute heavily to the teams offense. Finding out he's a marginal middle 6er isnt good. IDK why this has to be explained. As soon as you can accept the disappointment, you can move past it. Red Wings fans in one breath admit Zadina has failed expectations.Then in the next breath argue he never should have had said expectations.

I didnt need Zadina to be Raymond. But I sure as hell expected him to be better than an 11 goal pace on his 3rd year in the league.

He's 22.  Wait til Vrana comes back.

[bIueadams 776]

13 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Zadina has not lived up to expectations. I dont think that's even debatable.

Yes

13 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

But he is still an NHL regular with a middle six forward skill set. He is outperforming players drafted ahead of him, and his level of play is consistent with other players drafted at 6th overall.

A redraft probably goes something like this:

1. Dahlin
2. Svechnikov
3. Tkachuk
4. Hughes
5. Boqvist
6. Smith
7. Bouchard
8. Sandin
9. Dobson
10. Farabee
11. Zadina

If Zadina's current season continues the way it's going, by the end of the year a few others will likely push him farther down that list. I don't mind comparing him to 6th overalls in other draft classes per-say, but I think the better comparison is to other talent available in HIS draft class. Spending a 6th overall on a guy who should've gone 10-15 sucks. And it sucks knowing we had to go through that pitifully season - with the only real reward being that draft pick - and Holland/Wright screwing it up like that.

13 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 Can we move on from this pointless debate now?

No

[redw1ngs 149]

Why so much hate directed towards Zadina and none towards Rasmusen tho? Zadina is a much better player a year younger with a year less development. Rasmusen probly wouldnt be a top 39oa pick in a redraft let alone top 9oa pick. imo Zadina has the tools to be a top half of the lineup player and Rasmusen just has the empty box no tools.

17 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

He's 22.  Wait til Vrana comes back.

I agree. Vrana should give Zadina the space he needs to make more happen offensively the space he doesnt get with Suter/Fabbri.

[marcaractac 3,962]

43 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

Why so much hate directed towards Zadina and none towards Rasmusen tho? Zadina is a much better player a year younger with a year less development. Rasmusen probly wouldnt be a top 39oa pick in a redraft let alone top 9oa pick. imo Zadina has the tools to be a top half of the lineup player and Rasmusen just has the empty box no tools.

I agree. Vrana should give Zadina the space he needs to make more happen offensively the space he doesnt get with Suter/Fabbri.

100% this. It all comes down to Zadina being given unrealistic expectations where as many were pissed about Ras being taken where he was. 

[kipwinger 8,521]

The reason why there's no debate about Rasmussen is that those who thought he'd take a big step forward this year (myself and a few others) don't feel compelled to make excuses for the guy. He sucks. He's failed to take that step forward, and it's nobody's fault but his. The same is true for Zadina. The only difference is that there seems to be a pretty strong Zadina contingent around here unwilling to admit the same things about him.

You guys keep saying we have "unrealistic expectations" for Zadina but we're only having this debate because some folks are having a hard time admitting he's worse than they'd expected him to be. Yet somehow we're "unrealistic" when we insinuate he's much closer to his floor than his ceiling.

 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

16 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

The reason why there's no debate about Rasmussen is that those who thought he'd take a big step forward this year (myself and a few others) don't feel compelled to make excuses for the guy. He sucks. He's failed to take that step forward, and it's nobody's fault but his. The same is true for Zadina. The only difference is that there seems to be a pretty strong Zadina contingent around here unwilling to admit the same things about him.

You guys keep saying we have "unrealistic expectations" for Zadina but we're only having this debate because some folks are having a hard time admitting he's worse than they'd expected him to be. Yet somehow we're "unrealistic" when we insinuate he's much closer to his floor than his ceiling.

 

This post is sadness. Time to go watch GIFs of Swedish prospects..........

[redw1ngs 149]

38 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

The reason why there's no debate about Rasmussen is that those who thought he'd take a big step forward this year (myself and a few others) don't feel compelled to make excuses for the guy. He sucks. He's failed to take that step forward, and it's nobody's fault but his. The same is true for Zadina. The only difference is that there seems to be a pretty strong Zadina contingent around here unwilling to admit the same things about him.

You guys keep saying we have "unrealistic expectations" for Zadina but we're only having this debate because some folks are having a hard time admitting he's worse than they'd expected him to be. Yet somehow we're "unrealistic" when we insinuate he's much closer to his floor than his ceiling.

 

If everybody is on the same page with Rasmusen I can understand why theres no debate but I asked why there isnt the same level of hate directed at him. This doesnt really explain that. I havent been here long but from what Ive seen theres alot of s***ting all over Zadina mostly because of expectations from the draft. I havent seen the same level of s***ting on Rasmusen tho. I was just curious why that might be but marcar maybe better addressed this. 

Im curious though why you expected a breakout from Rasmusen this season? I dont want to put words in your mouth but it seems youve given up on Zadina when his breakout season could be next season the same age as Ras this season. Im not gonna pretend to know how Zadinas career path will go but I think its a bit premature to give up on a fresh 22yo. Im sure Oilers fans are happy they didnt give up on Pulijarvi last season.

[bIueadams 776]

2 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

If everybody is on the same page with Rasmusen I can understand why theres no debate but I asked why there isnt the same level of hate directed at him. This doesnt really explain that. I havent been here long but from what Ive seen theres alot of s***ting all over Zadina mostly because of expectations from the draft. I havent seen the same level of s***ting on Rasmusen tho. I was just curious why that might be but marcar maybe better addressed this.

Like you said, Marc explained this. Nobody hates Zadina. What I hate is folks constantly squirming to defend him when he so clearly sucks. So I post crap like "lol busterino" in the GDT when Rowney steals his goal to put the screws to you slappies who refuse to be realistic about your fanboy players.

Zadina debate will die when the excuses dry up.

[kipwinger 8,521]

1 minute ago, redw1ngs said:

If everybody is on the same page with Rasmusen I can understand why theres no debate but I asked why there isnt the same level of hate directed at him. This doesnt really explain that. I havent been here long but from what Ive seen theres alot of s***ting all over Zadina mostly because of expectations from the draft. I havent seen the same level of s***ting on Rasmusen tho. I was just curious why that might be but marcar maybe better addressed this. 

Im curious though why you expected a breakout from Rasmusen this season? I dont want to put words in your mouth but it seems youve given up on Zadina when his breakout season could be next season the same age as Ras this season. Im not gonna pretend to know how Zadinas career path will go but I think its a bit premature to give up on a fresh 22yo. Im sure Oilers fans are happy they didnt give up on Pulijarvi last season.

With Larkin injured last season Rasmussen finished the year as the 1C for this team and looked like he was able to keep up with better players (mentally and physically). I figured after a good summer in the gym (due to injuries, his first full offseason since he was drafted) he'd be a beast as a 3C. Instead he's shown none of the intensity or skill he showed a year ago and doesn't look any stronger.

 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

Zadina will be fine.  I like the guy.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

10 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Like you said, Marc explained this. Nobody hates Zadina. What I hate is folks constantly squirming to defend him when he so clearly sucks. So I post crap like "lol busterino" in the GDT when Rowney steals his goal to put the screws to you slappies who refuse to be realistic about your fanboy players.

Zadina debate will die when the excuses dry up.

I asked Kip the same question two weeks ago. Who are you talking about exactly? The KRSmith's of the world checked out of this hellscape ages ago. 

Also, this entire statement is U on LGWs. 

 

[bIueadams 776]

7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I asked Kip the same question two weeks ago. Who are you talking about exactly? The KRSmith's of the world checked out of this hellscape ages ago. 

Also, this entire statement is U on LGWs. 

 

Seider is one slip up from me making a "Mo Sucks" thread

[bIueadams 776]

Raymond's father is French. Therefore he should be property of the French National Team. Fight me.

[13dangledangle 958]

I was hoping for the best outta Zadina (for the Wings) BUT that clearly isn't happening.  Yes he was a 6OA pick and Yes he has failed terribly to live of the his "filling the nets with pucks" promise, but we have this dude on our roster so Im looking at him as a player and wondering what his role is gonna be, where does he fit.  He does have a role here, and I think thats the main narrative, not that hes a bust 6OA pick.  Unlike Ras who has nothing going for him, Zadina has very useful tools that can help our club and give us depth once our other prospects start hitting the lineup.        

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

4 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Raymond's father is French. Therefore he should be property of the French National Team. Fight me.

no one picked him for the calder

played like 2 minutes a game in Sweden last year

no one expected him to make wings roster

left off of 55 man Olympic roster

Q has a 4OA pick ever been this disrespected

A NO!

Conclusion no one that holds a pen knows anything about hockey

 

[bIueadams 776]

25 minutes ago, 13dangledangle said:

I was hoping for the best outta Zadina (for the Wings) BUT that clearly isn't happening.  Yes he was a 6OA pick and Yes he has failed terribly to live of the his "filling the nets with pucks" promise, but we have this dude on our roster so Im looking at him as a player and wondering what his role is gonna be, where does he fit.  He does have a role here, and I think thats the main narrative, not that hes a bust 6OA pick.  Unlike Ras who has nothing going for him, Zadina has very useful tools that can help our club and give us depth once our other prospects start hitting the lineup.        

Ras certainly has things going for him. Good defensive center. Good faceoff man. Good PKer. If he never gets his offense going he probably still ends up as our 3C top defensive center. He's really pretty much there already, just needs to fill out and add weight to his frame.

Zadina can certainly play defense as well, but that's a lot less valuable from a winger, one who doesn't PK or take draws. As a top 6 winger we need offense from him a lot more than we do Ras.

But 22 games in and Zadina has ZERO primary assists. Rasmussen has 5. The kid can't shoot, and now he apparently can't create plays either...

Edited November 29, 2021 by bIueadams

[marcaractac 3,962]

2 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Ras certainly has things going for him. Good defensive center. Good faceoff man. Good PKer. If he never gets his offense going he probably still ends up as our 3C top defensive center. He's really pretty much there already, just needs to fill out and add weight to his frame.

Zadina can certainly play defense as well, but that's a lot less valuable from a winger, one who doesn't PK or take draws. As a top 6 winger we need offense from him a lot more than we do Ras.

But 22 games in and Zadina has ZERO primary assists. Rasmussen has 5. The kid can't shoot, and now he apparently can't create plays either...

Yeah, Michael "assists on empty net goals" Rasmussen. 

Not hating, just pointing that out. Ras will be an important bottom 6 player for many years. Zadina will be an important middle 6 at worst winger for many years. Both have been underwhelming offensively. Both have time to figure it out. Neither have done what they were drafted to do at this point, but have found other ways to add value to the team. Hopefully at least one of them breaks out offensively in the next year or two. On the plus side, Yzerman is the captain now. 

[bIueadams 776]

26 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

no one picked him for the calder

played like 2 minutes a game in Sweden last year

no one expected him to make wings roster

left off of 55 man Olympic roster

Q has a 4OA pick ever been this disrespected

A NO!

Conclusion no one that holds a pen knows anything about hockey

 

Raymond is tied with Andreas Johnsson for most even strength points in the league by a Swedish born player.

[bIueadams 776]

5 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Yeah, Michael "assists on empty net goals" Rasmussen. 

Not hating, just pointing that out. Ras will be an important bottom 6 player for many years. Zadina will be an important middle 6 at worst winger for many years. Both have been underwhelming offensively. Both have time to figure it out. Neither have done what they were drafted to do at this point, but have found other ways to add value to the team. Hopefully at least one of them breaks out offensively in the next year or two. On the plus side, Yzerman is the captain now. 

Sure, Ras is tied for the team lead in this. Still has 3 primary assists from the bottom 6 and PK, while Zadina has zero in the top6 and PP.

Empty net goals:

1. Seider (1)
2. Bertuzzi (1)
3. Fabbri (1)
4. Gagner (1)
5. Erne (1)

Assists on empty net goals:

1. Rasmussen (2)
2. Hronek (2)
3. Leddy (1)
4. Gagner (1)
5. Namestnikov (1)
6. Bertuzzi (1)

Point totals with empty net points removed and secondary assists removed:

1. Larkin (17) in 18
2. Raymond (15) in 22
3. Bertuzzi (13) in 19
4. Namestnikov (10) in 22
5. Suter (7) in 22
6. Fabbri (7) in 22
7. Seider (7) in 22
8. Hronek (5) in 20
9. Erne (5) in 21
10. Gagner (4) in 22
11. Rasmussen (4) in 22
12. Veleno (3) in 9
13. Zadina (3) in 22
14. Rowney (2) in 11
15. Stephens (2) in 16
16. Smith (2) in 16
17. Stecher (1) in 6
18. Lindstrom (1) in 16
19. Staal (1) in 19
20. Dekeyser (1) in 19
21. Leddy (1) in 22
22. Oesterle (0) in 7
23. Renouf (0) in 1

Point generation pace with empty net points and secondary assists removed:

1. Larkin = 0.944
2. Bertuzzi = 0.684
3. Raymond = 0.681
4. Namestnikov = 0.454
5. Veleno = 0.333
6. Suter = 0.318
7. Fabbri = 0.318
8. Seider = 0.318
9. Hronek = 0.250
10. Erne = 0.238
11. Gagner = 0.181
12. Rasmussen = 0.181
13. Rowney = 0.181
14. Stecher = 0.166
15. Zadina = 0.136
16. Stephens = 0.125
17. Smith = 0.125
18. Lindstrom = 0.062
19. Staal = 0.052
20. Dekeyser = 0.052
21. Leddy = 0.045
22. Oesterle = 0.000
23. Renouf = 0.000

Zadina is producing less primary points than Veleno, Rasmussen, Gagner, Strecher, and Rowney. But he's not the worst forward on the team at this... he's still out producing Smith and Stephens lol wooohoo!

Also after doing this... trade Leddy now.

 

[bIueadams 776]

Based on offensive production our lines should look like this:

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Raymond
Veleno - Suter - Namestnikov
Fabbri - Rasmussen - Erne
Gagner - Rowney - Zadina

[Akakabuto 1,749]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

Also after doing this... trade Leddy now.

I had way higher hopes for Leddy

[Akakabuto 1,749]

Anybody thinks Kronner could have a future in coaching?

Assistant with responsibility over defense maybe?

Edited November 29, 2021 by Akakabuto

[bIueadams 776]

14 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

I had way higher hopes for Leddy

I turned and burned on Leddy about 12-15 games in. He's literally only picking up secondary assists and he's at the bottom of the team in +/- with -7. Really only our bottom 6 and Fabbri and DK are even minus on the season.

Even when he was paired with Seider he was getting scored on a lot and was producing less than Mo, even when you count the secondaries.

I'm giving the win to @krsmith17 on that trade. He was really the only one bitching about it. But if we can still dump him on an R-slur like Holland for a 1st it will be okay. Just don't re-sign.

Edited November 29, 2021 by bIueadams

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

2 hours ago, bIueadams said:

I turned and burned on Leddy about 12-15 games in. He's literally only picking up secondary assists and he's at the bottom of the team in +/- with -7. Really only our bottom 6 and Fabbri and DK are even minus on the season.

Even when he was paired with Seider he was getting scored on a lot and was producing less than Mo, even when you count the secondaries.

I'm giving the win to @krsmith17 on that trade. He was really the only one bitching about it. But if we can still dump him on an R-slur like Holland for a 1st it will be okay. Just don't re-sign.

Leddy has had to play a lot with Hronek. AKA this team’s dumbest Dman. Doesn’t help. 

Still. He hasn’t been very good at all. 

If Yzerman get’s a 2nd for him it’s a wash. A 1st and he’s won the trade easy. 
 

 

[marcaractac 3,962]

16 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Sure, Ras is tied for the team lead in this. Still has 3 primary assists from the bottom 6 and PK, while Zadina has zero in the top6 and PP.

Empty net goals:

1. Seider (1)
2. Bertuzzi (1)
3. Fabbri (1)
4. Gagner (1)
5. Erne (1)

Assists on empty net goals:

1. Rasmussen (2)
2. Hronek (2)
3. Leddy (1)
4. Gagner (1)
5. Namestnikov (1)
6. Bertuzzi (1)

Point totals with empty net points removed and secondary assists removed:

1. Larkin (17) in 18
2. Raymond (15) in 22
3. Bertuzzi (13) in 19
4. Namestnikov (10) in 22
5. Suter (7) in 22
6. Fabbri (7) in 22
7. Seider (7) in 22
8. Hronek (5) in 20
9. Erne (5) in 21
10. Gagner (4) in 22
11. Rasmussen (4) in 22
12. Veleno (3) in 9
13. Zadina (3) in 22
14. Rowney (2) in 11
15. Stephens (2) in 16
16. Smith (2) in 16
17. Stecher (1) in 6
18. Lindstrom (1) in 16
19. Staal (1) in 19
20. Dekeyser (1) in 19
21. Leddy (1) in 22
22. Oesterle (0) in 7
23. Renouf (0) in 1

Point generation pace with empty net points and secondary assists removed:

1. Larkin = 0.944
2. Bertuzzi = 0.684
3. Raymond = 0.681
4. Namestnikov = 0.454
5. Veleno = 0.333
6. Suter = 0.318
7. Fabbri = 0.318
8. Seider = 0.318
9. Hronek = 0.250
10. Erne = 0.238
11. Gagner = 0.181
12. Rasmussen = 0.181
13. Rowney = 0.181
14. Stecher = 0.166
15. Zadina = 0.136
16. Stephens = 0.125
17. Smith = 0.125
18. Lindstrom = 0.062
19. Staal = 0.052
20. Dekeyser = 0.052
21. Leddy = 0.045
22. Oesterle = 0.000
23. Renouf = 0.000

Zadina is producing less primary points than Veleno, Rasmussen, Gagner, Strecher, and Rowney. But he's not the worst forward on the team at this... he's still out producing Smith and Stephens lol wooohoo!

Also after doing this... trade Leddy now.

 

I like how the one thing you focused on in my post was the joke.

Edited November 30, 2021 by marcaractac