New New Prospects Thread

[kipwinger 8,492]

 

Craig Button's Top NHL Affiliated Prospects List:

Edvinsson #3

Cossa #13

 

FWIW Button had Seider at #1 and Raymond at #3 a year ago, so anecdotally it seems like he knows what he's talking about.  There also seems to be some sort of age cutoff here, as guys like Berggren and Sodorblom didn't make the list despite playing very well in professional leagues this season.

Edited April 12, 2022 by kipwinger

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

 

Craig Button's Top NHL Affiliated Prospects List:

Edvinsson #3

Cossa #13

 

FWIW Button had Seider at #1 and Raymond at #3 a year ago, so anecdotally it seems like he knows what he's talking about.  There also seems to be some sort of age cutoff here, as guys like Berggren and Sodorblom didn't make the list despite playing very well in professional leagues this season.

Did Yzerman take the wrong goalie?

[redw1ngs 149]

25 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Did Yzerman take the wrong goalie?

Yes

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

Owen Power should play for the Rangers so he could be a Power Ranger. Dad joke.

[TLGTrico 616]

All of our prospects in the shl made it past the first round.

[kipwinger 8,492]

Berggren on the board again tonight. This is becoming a nightly thing. 

Edit: Just kidding...that's two points for Berggren tonight. And THAT is becoming a nightly thing.

Edited April 14, 2022 by kipwinger

[redw1ngs 149]

10 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Berggren on the board again tonight. This is becoming a nightly thing. 

Edit: Just kidding...that's two points for Berggren tonight. And THAT is becoming a nightly thing.

I know your real horny for Berggren but for a player scoring at less than a pt/gp I dont think 2 pts/gp is becoming THAT much of a nightly thing.

0pts in 27gp

1pt in 23gp

2pts in 11gp

3pts in 1gp

4pts in 1gp

20% of gp with 2+pts

57% of gp with at least 1pt tho

Im a Berggren fan but dont be surprised if he spends another season in GR.

[marcaractac 3,960]

11 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Berggren on the board again tonight. This is becoming a nightly thing. 

Edit: Just kidding...that's two points for Berggren tonight. And THAT is becoming a nightly thing.

Seeing a prospect capable of picking corners with his shot is nice to see. Too bad Zadina can't do that.

30 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

I know your real horny for Berggren but for a player scoring at less than a pt/gp I dont think 2 pts/gp is becoming THAT much of a nightly thing.

0pts in 27gp

1pt in 23gp

2pts in 11gp

3pts in 1gp

4pts in 1gp

20% of gp with 2+pts

57% of gp with at least 1pt tho

Im a Berggren fan but dont be surprised if he spends another season in GR.

Berggren has started off a little slow and has consistently gotten better and better as the season has gone along. And yes, he is scoring like this almost every night now. 

[redw1ngs 149]

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

Seeing a prospect capable of picking corners with his shot is nice to see. Too bad Zadina can't do that.

Berggren has started off a little slow and has consistently gotten better and better as the season has gone along. And yes, he is scoring like this almost every night now. 

If by almost 'every night now' your refering to a 3gp sample. Ya hes 66% in those 3gp. Other than that your wrong. Berggren scored 27pts in his first 30gp and then 25pts in his next 33gp. Hes been pretty consistent all season with only 2 dryspells where he went 4&5gp w/o a pt. So no hes not scoring like this every night now.

[kipwinger 8,492]

2 hours ago, redw1ngs said:

I know your real horny for Berggren but for a player scoring at less than a pt/gp I dont think 2 pts/gp is becoming THAT much of a nightly thing.

0pts in 27gp

1pt in 23gp

2pts in 11gp

3pts in 1gp

4pts in 1gp

20% of gp with 2+pts

57% of gp with at least 1pt tho

Im a Berggren fan but dont be surprised if he spends another season in GR.

*Scans information*

So you’re telling me he has 13 multi point games as an AHL rookie getting his first taste of North American hockey? Including 4 multipoint efforts in his last 16 games (17 points in that span)? All while leading the Griffins in scoring?

Good.

But in all seriousness, it’s not like I think the guy is the next Johnny Gaudreau or anything like that. I’ve elsewhere described him as an Ales Hemsky or Val Filppula type. But given that most 2nd rounders never pan out that’s a huge win for the Wings rebuild.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by kipwinger

[redw1ngs 149]

3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

*Scans information*

So you’re telling me he has 13 multi point games as an AHL rookie getting his first taste of North American hockey? Including 4 multipoint efforts in his last 6 games? All while leading the Griffins in scoring?

Good.

But in all seriousness, it’s not like I think the guy is the next Johnny Gaudreau or anything like that. I’ve elsewhere described him as an Ales Hemsky or Val Filppula type. But given that most 2nd rounds never pan out that’s a huge win for the Wings rebuild.

Id hope hes had 63 straight mulipoint 'efforts'. If you mean games hes actually had multiple points he hasnt had 4 in his last 6. Hes only had 2 in his last 7. Before that he went on a run with 3 in 4 tho.

Other then that I agree hes been great. Really impressive stat line for a 21yo rookie. Curious what you and others s***ting on Zadina think he would be doing in the AHL right now. He scored 16pts in 21gp 2 years ago. Maybe better then Berggren? or no?

[kipwinger 8,492]

1 minute ago, redw1ngs said:

Id hope hes had 63 straight mulipoint 'efforts'. If you mean games hes actually had multiple points he hasnt had 4 in his last 6. Hes only had 2 in his last 7. Before that he went on a run with 3 in 4 tho.

Other then that I agree hes been great. Really impressive stat line for a 21yo rookie. Curious what you and others s***ting on Zadina think he would be doing in the AHL right now. He scored 16pts in 21gp 2 years ago. Maybe better then Berggren? or no?

That was a typo I corrected, it was 4 in 16.

As far as the second part of your post, I'd say a few things: Zadina probably would be tearing it up in the AHL. So what? Does that mean he's a good NHL scorer, or that Berggren won't be? Zadina was a better AHL scorer than Bertuzzi, and?

Berggren will score more in the NHL than Zadina for a few reasons. One, he doesn't rely on his shot for points. He's a playmaker, and when he moves to the NHL he'll be passing to better shooters. Zadina, on the other hand has zilch for primary assists. Two, he's a MUCH better skater which (combined with his passing) should help him score more in transition than Zadina does. Third, Zadina sucks on the powerplay. He's a one trick pony (one timer off the flank), and that trick doesn't work in the NHL because his shot isn't very good. Berggren is a nightmare on the powerplay because his edgework is sick as f*** and his passing is elite.

I don't care about Zadina, personally I'm blown away that a guy who's done SO LITTLE gets so much discussion from this fan base. Conversely I'm excited about Berggren because he's a lot of things Zadina isn't. But he will DEFINITELY score more, you can mark that down.

Edited April 14, 2022 by kipwinger

[marcaractac 3,960]

3 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

Id hope hes had 63 straight mulipoint 'efforts'. If you mean games hes actually had multiple points he hasnt had 4 in his last 6. Hes only had 2 in his last 7. Before that he went on a run with 3 in 4 tho.

Other then that I agree hes been great. Really impressive stat line for a 21yo rookie. Curious what you and others s***ting on Zadina think he would be doing in the AHL right now. He scored 16pts in 21gp 2 years ago. Maybe better then Berggren? or no?

Berggren basically lost 2 straight years of development and showed continued improvement once he stayed healthy. 

Zadina kept playing and he scores just as little as he did when he entered the league. Who cares what he could do in the AHL. It's his lack of improvement in the NHL that sucks. 

Berggren has shown improvement in every league he has played in. Many of us think he will show that same progress at the NHL level. That is the difference. 

[kipwinger 8,492]

4 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Berggren basically lost 2 straight years of development and showed continued improvement once he stayed healthy. 

Zadina kept playing and he scores just as little as he did when he entered the league. Who cares what he could do in the AHL. It's his lack of improvement in the NHL that sucks. 

Berggren has shown improvement in every league he has played in. Many of us think he will show that same progress at the NHL level. That is the difference. 

Agreed, but it's not just that Berggren scores. It's HOW he scores. His skills are transferable. We wouldn't be having this discussion if we were talking about Martin Frk (for example) because he's got all the same problems as Zadina despite how good he is in the AHL. But we're talking about a totally different type of offensive player. Berggren has A+ skating, passing, vision, and smarts. Zadina has none of those things. Zadina had a good shot at lower levels but it's clear he can't consistently beat NHL goalies with it. And he doesn't really bring much else to the table.

[redw1ngs 149]

14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

That was a typo I corrected, it was 4 in 16.

5 in 11 actually.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

11 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Agreed, but it's not just that Berggren scores. It's HOW he scores. His skills are transferable. We wouldn't be having this discussion if we were talking about Martin Frk (for example) because he's got all the same problems as Zadina despite how good he is in the AHL. But we're talking about a totally different type of offensive player. Berggren has A+ skating, passing, vision, and smarts. Zadina has none of those things. Zadina had a good shot at lower levels but it's clear he can't consistently beat NHL goalies with it. And he doesn't really bring much else to the table.

If Berggren was as good as you say he is, he'd be up with the big club already.  You know who has transferrable skills?  Vrana and Bertuzzi.  Those guys are potting goals at the NHL level.  Berggren hasnt played a game yet and he's 22 years old already.  He'd have shot up to the team this year if he was as sure a prospect as youre making him out to be.  Get ready to be disappointed after the fizzle.  He's a floater like Franzen, and that wont translate to the NHL at all.  The NHL is about going through people and opening up in holes for split seconds to release top corner or 5 hole shots. You have to be perfect woth your shot placement or out muscle guys to the net for rebounds in the NHL.  Thats why our prospects arent tearing it up.  Because they have to learn how to do that first.  Took Bertuzzi 5 years.  Gonna take Ras, Soderblom, Zadina, and Berggren a while too.  Veleno is ahead of the game because ghe message sunk in early with him - lift weights and get stronger or you wont be on the ice long.  The other guys better get the message too.  Berggren and his 171 lbs gonna get steam rolled in the show.  Get your whips ready.

[kipwinger 8,492]

In other prospect news, Rogle is currently riding William Wallinder through the SHL playoffs. He's been an absolute horse, playing 20+ minutes a night of solid defensive hockey. Tasked with shutting down the other teams' top lines. I still don't see too much offensive upside at the NHL level, but if he can turn into a Matthias Ekholm/Danny Dekeyser type who can score 25-30 points at even strength and play really good defense for 20 mins a night I'm going to be pumped.

[kipwinger 8,492]

21 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

If Berggren was as good as you say he is, he'd be up with the big club already.  You know who has transferrable skills?  Vrana and Bertuzzi.  Those guys are potting goals at the NHL level.  Berggren hasnt played a game yet and he's 22 years old already.  He'd have shot up to the team this year if he was as sure a prospect as youre making him out to be.  Get ready to be disappointed after the fizzle.  He's a floater like Franzen, and that wont translate to the NHL at all.  The NHL is about going through people and opening up in holes for split seconds to release top corner or 5 hole shots. You have to be perfect woth your shot placement or out muscle guys to the net for rebounds in the NHL.  Thats why our prospects arent tearing it up.  Because they have to learn how to do that first.  Took Bertuzzi 5 years.  Gonna take Ras, Soderblom, Zadina, and Berggren a while too.  Veleno is ahead of the game because ghe message sunk in early with him - lift weights and get stronger or you wont be on the ice long.  The other guys better get the message too.  Berggren and his 171 lbs gonna get steam rolled in the show.  Get your whips ready.

Obvious troll is obvious. But I'll play along:

1. You: "He's like Franzen, that won't be transferable". Reality: Franzen was an awesome NHL player who was indispensable to two Cup runs and one Cup win.

2. You: "If he was good he'd be up by now". Also you: "It took Bertuzzi 5 years" to develop.

3. You: "The NHL is about going top corner and 5 hole shots". Reality: Every top scorer in the NHL has more assists than goals.

4. You: Berggren is a soft floater who needs to lift weights. Also you: Vrana has transferable skills at the NHL level.

5. You: "Berggren and his 171 lbs is gonna get steam rolled." Reality: Berggren is 5'11, 195 lbs. https://griffinshockey.com/team/roster/jonatan-berggren

6. You: Veleno gets is, he lifted weights and got stronger. Reality: Berggren (who is the same age as Veleno) added 25 lbs of muscle since he was drafted.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by kipwinger

[marcaractac 3,960]

Folks saying 'If Berggren was so good he'd be called up already" clearly haven't been paying attention.

Management is not rushing this kid. They've made that clear on multiple occasions. They have been working with him to adjust to the NA game and become a more dynamic scorer so he can succeed at the NHL level. 

He's a second-round pick who has the potential to be an excellent depth scorer. That is more than what we can say about Zadina, who produces just as little in a top 6 role as he does on the fourth line.  

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Obvious troll is obvious. But I'll play along:

1. You: "He's like Franzen, that won't be transferable". Reality: Franzen was an awesome NHL player who was indispensable to two Cup runs and one Cup win.

2. You: "If he was good he'd be up by now". Also you: "It took Bertuzzi 5 years" to develop.

3. You: "The NHL is about going top corner and 5 hole shots". Reality: Every top scorer in the NHL has more assists than goals.

4. You: Berggren is a soft floater who needs to lift weights. Also you: Vrana has transferable skills at the NHL level.

5. You: "Berggren and his 171 lbs is gonna get steam rolled." Reality: Berggren is 5'11, 195 lbs. https://griffinshockey.com/team/roster/jonatan-berggren

6. You: Veleno gets is, he lifted weights and got stronger. Reality: Berggren (who is the same age as Veleno) added 25 lbs of muscle since he was drafted.

 

I am playing devils advocate here.  But its to prove a point that people are using a glass is half full approach with Berggren and a glass is half empty approach with Zadina.  I get why Zadina gets ragged.  He was drafted to score, and he's not done that yet.  What he HAS done is become a dependable winger who wont cost us much and can fill 8 spots in our line up on any given night.  While we all want Zadina to do what Vrana does, we need to get over it.  Like Rasmussen and Veleno, there isnt anything wrong to having skilled players on your third line that come at a low cost and dont get hurt.  I also hope Berggren steps into a 2nd line role and flourishes.  That would be fantastic.

[TLGTrico 616]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

In other prospect news, Rogle is currently riding William Wallinder through the SHL playoffs. He's been an absolute horse, playing 20+ minutes a night of solid defensive hockey. Tasked with shutting down the other teams' top lines. I still don't see too much offensive upside at the NHL level, but if he can turn into a Matthias Ekholm/Danny Dekeyser type who can score 25-30 points at even strength and play really good defense for 20 mins a night I'm going to be pumped.

He'll be going head to head with Johansson in the second round

[kipwinger 8,492]

Just now, Jonas Mahonas said:

I am playing devils advocate here.  But its to prove a point that people are using a glass is half full approach with Berggren and a glass is half empty approach with Zadina.  I get why Zadina gets ragged.  He was drafted to score, and he's not done that yet.  What he HAS done is become a dependable winger who wont cost us much and can fill 8 spots in our line up on any given night.  While we all want Zadina to do what Vrana does, we need to get over it.  Like Rasmussen and Veleno, there isnt anything wrong to having skilled players on your third line that come at a low cost and dont get hurt.  I also hope Berggren steps into a 2nd line role and flourishes.  That would be fantastic.

1. Berggren and Zadina are nothing alike. The only similarity is that they're both offensive players. Otherwise they're completely different in terms of their physical skills, and completely different in terms of their playing styles. You can advocate for the Devil all you want, but you're off base here.

2. Zadina is not "dependable". He is bad defensively and he doesn't score. He's a non-factor on special teams too. What does he "dependably do"? Hustle? Sure, but so does Adam Erne and at least he doesn't get caved defensively while not scoring.

3. Rasmussen is better than Zadina in every single facet of the game of hockey, including on offense. And Veleno plays a different position. Both are MUCH more valuable than Zadina at this point in their respective careers.

4. I have never, EVER, said Berggren will be a 2nd line player. If you're not pulling that out of your ass then I'm not sure where you're getting it form.

[redw1ngs 149]

9 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Rasmussen is better than Zadina in every single facet of the game of hockey, including on offense. And Veleno plays a different position. Both are MUCH more valuable than Zadina at this point in their respective careers.

Ras is a year ahead in his development. Was Ras better a year ago then Zadina is today in every single facet of the game of hockey? Serious question. I lean no but curious where you would land.

I agree that Zadinas been disappointing so far in his young career offensively but disagree that hes bad defensively. I think that disappointment tho is driven by expectations based on where he was drafted which is kinda dumb.

[kipwinger 8,492]

21 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

Ras is a year ahead in his development. Was Ras better a year ago then Zadina is today in every single facet of the game of hockey? Serious question. I lean no but curious where you would land.

I agree that Zadinas been disappointing so far in his young career offensively but disagree that hes bad defensively. I think that disappointment tho is driven by expectations based on where he was drafted which is kinda dumb.

Yes Ras was better a year ago too. Throughout his NHL career Ras has CONSTANTLY been asked to do more, and harder, things things for this team and has still produced about as well as Zadina. First, he played in the NHL at 19 because he was too good for the CHL and couldn't play in the AHL (being a Euro on loan, Zadina played in the AHL at 19 like he should have). Then Ras was asked to be a defensive center despite only ever being a top line scorer in the CHL (a total role change). Then last year, when Jamie Benn broke Larkin's neck, Ras was asked to be the 1C for the last 15 games of the season or so. All while playing a much harder position than Zadina, having more responsibility on the ice, playing special teams, and taking faceoffs.

Zadina has only ever been asked to do the thing that he's supposedly good at, shoot and score. All while Blashill moved heaven and earth to help him succeed at THAT (top six minutes, great linemates, powerplay time). And the results have been...not good. His .37 points per game is only marginally better than Rasmussen's .31 despite the fact that offense is supposed to be his calling card. Put another way, Rasmussen scores nearly as much while playing harder position, having more defensive responsibilities, AND having to drag around guys like Adam Erne, Givani Smith, etc. Zadina, on the other hand, can't score alongside Bert, Suter, Larkin, Raymond, Vrana and that's LITERALLY his only job.

AND you're way off base defensively. Zadina apologists noticed a year ago that he was pretty good at stripping pucks on the backcheck and the "Zadina is a good defensive player" narrative was born. But the numbers don't support it. His defensive metrics rank near the very bottom of a team that's abysmal defensively.

Finally, Michael Rasmussen is a whopping 7 months older than Zadina and has only played 17 more NHL games than Zadina. Much is made about how Zadina is so young and has never had a full year's worth of development in the NHL. It's worth mentioning that he was an older player for his draft class (Ras was on the young end), and that Ras battled serious injuries early in his career. Their developmental curves are nearly identical aside from the fact that Ras is asked to do more...as I've already mentioned.

TLDR: Ras is MUCH better than Zadina.

Edited April 14, 2022 by kipwinger

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

4 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Yes Ras was better a year ago too. Throughout his NHL career Ras has CONSTANTLY been asked to do more, and harder, things things for this team and has still produced about as well as Zadina. First, he played in the NHL at 19 because he was too good for the CHL and couldn't play in the AHL (being a Euro on loan, Zadina played in the AHL at 19 like he should have). Then Ras was asked to be a defensive center despite only ever being a top line scorer in the CHL (a total role change). Then last year, when Jamie Benn broke Larkin's neck, Ras was asked to be the 1C for the last 15 games of the season or so. All while playing a much harder position than Zadina, having more responsibility on the ice, playing special teams, and taking faceoffs.

Zadina has only ever been asked to do the thing that he's supposedly good at, shoot and score. All while Blashill moved heaven and earth to help him succeed at THAT (top six minutes, great linemates, powerplay time). And the results have been...not good. His .37 points per game is only marginally better than Rasmussen's .31 despite the fact that offense is supposed to be his calling card. Put another way, Rasmussen scores nearly as much while playing harder position, having more defensive responsibilities, AND having to drag around guys like Adam Erne, Givani Smith, etc. Zadina, on the other hand, can't score alongside Bert, Suter, Larkin, Raymond, Vrana and that's LITERALLY his only job.

AND you're way off base defensively. Zadina apologists noticed a year ago that he was pretty good at stripping pucks on the backcheck and the "Zadina is a good defensive player" narrative was born. But the numbers don't support it. His defensive metrics rank near the very bottom of a team that's abysmal defensively.

Finally, Michael Rasmussen is a whopping 7 months older than Zadina and has only played 17 more NHL games than Zadina. Much is made about how Zadina is so young and has never had a full year's worth of development in the NHL. It's worth mentioning that he was an older player for his draft class (Ras was on the young end), and that Ras battled serious injuries early in his career. Their developmental curves are nearly identical aside from the fact that Ras is asked to do more...as I've already mentioned.

TLDR: Ras is MUCH better than Zadina.

You dont think Zadina is worth keeping at ANY price?  Lets get down to brass tax.  If he signs for 1.25 mil per for 4 years, are you unhappy?