Remaking the defence

[bIueadams 776]

The top4 have been pretty solid this year. Maata/Hronek have been particularly good. The one decision to make here is do we bring back Maata next year? If this level of play continues its a solid yes from me.

That brings us to the glut of bottom pairing D we have... Lindstrom, Hagg, Walman, Oesterle, possibly Pysyk if they play him at D, and also Edvinsson coming up.

Pretty certain Eddog will make the team full time by next season. Who else do we keep for the 6th/7th spot?

Hagg - like the Erne of Dmen. Physical and hits a lot, but nothing impressive. Biggest thing going for him is he's cheap.

Lindstrom - Honestly at this point he's Hagg without the physicality. Nothing special. But the biggest thing going for him is his youth and RFA control. 

Walman - Big excellent slap shot from the point. Seems to have some spark to his game. Seems like a guy who would be at least servicable stepping into the top4 when needed.

Oesterle - Having the bounce back season I was hoping for. Playing a calm efficient two way game. Would like to see him get on the score sheet though.

Pysyk - An unkown still, but was well liked in Buffalo last year.

In a perfect world i'd keep Walman and Oesterle and bring up Eddogg. But Lindstroms RFA status and RH shot means we most likely keep him instead of Oesterle. Which sorta sucks cause im really not seeing anything great in lindstrom. This should be a season where he cements his spot on the team but he just looks like another soft passive 7th guy. Not sure he ever amounts to much more than that. I would seriously consider trading him while he still has some youth RFA value. 

Id also entertain the idea of making another big UFA signing this coming offseason, and re-signing none of our bottom pairs. Something like:

UFA - Seider

Chiarot - Hronek

Maata - Edvinsson

Keep Walman or Lindstrom as a 7th I guess

[marcaractac 3,962]

Keep Maata. Have Edvinsson, Walman, Oesterle round out 5-7. You got to imagine guys like AJ, Sebrango, could step up and fill in when injuries hit. 

[bIueadams 776]

6 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Keep Maata. Have Edvinsson, Walman, Oesterle round out 5-7. You got to imagine guys like AJ, Sebrango, could step up and fill in when injuries hit. 

So you are pro trading Lindstrom? 

I'll be honest, my OP was just an elaborate attempt to start a Lindstrom bashing thread. 

Right now im thinking package Lindstrom + Zadina + picks at the TDL to bring in some help for a playoff push. Currently were neck n neck for the #2 spot in our division. 

Dont sleep on McIsaac. I think he will be the number1 callup next year. He seems to be ahead of AJ and Sebrango in terms of icetime right now. 

 

[kipwinger 8,520]

If Edvinsson is up and on the 3rd pair next season (and I think he should be) he's going to need a Maatta-like partner to stay at home and cover for him. Edvinsson's game is built on puck transportation, and he's best when he's up in the play. I don't care who that partner is, but a solid veteran right hander (Pysyk?) makes sense.

Chiarot-Seider

Maatta-Hronek

Edvinsson-Pysyk

Wallman/Hagg/Lindstrom/Oesterle

[bIueadams 776]

58 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

If Edvinsson is up and on the 3rd pair next season (and I think he should be) he's going to need a Maatta-like partner to stay at home and cover for him. Edvinsson's game is built on puck transportation, and he's best when he's up in the play. I don't care who that partner is, but a solid veteran right hander (Pysyk?) makes sense.

Chiarot-Seider

Maatta-Hronek

Edvinsson-Pysyk

Wallman/Hagg/Lindstrom/Oesterle

Nick Jensen round 2? Will be UFA

Chia - Mo

Maata - Hronek

Ed - Jensen

Lindstrom

Release everyone else

[kipwinger 8,520]

43 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Nick Jensen round 2? Will be UFA

Chia - Mo

Maata - Hronek

Ed - Jensen

Lindstrom

Release everyone else

I wouldn't hate it at the right price. The Caps are on a downward trajectory, maybe he wants to ride some Red Wings coattails. He's pretty much exactly the kind of guy I'm talking about.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

Im getting less excited about all the supposed "prospects" we have while reading this dialogue.  McIsaac, Sebrango, Johansson, Viro, Wallinder, Buium, etc.  Sounds like we might need to draft a few RHD in the next few drafts with our top picks.

[kipwinger 8,520]

19 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Im getting less excited about all the supposed "prospects" we have while reading this dialogue.  McIsaac, Sebrango, Johansson, Viro, Wallinder, Buium, etc.  Sounds like we might need to draft a few RHD in the next few drafts with our top picks.

From the guys you listed here I'd rank them (in order of "Definite Top 4 Dman" to "Will not play NHL games")

Wallinder

McIsaac

Johansson

Buium

Sebrango

Viro

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

From the guys you listed here I'd rank them (in order of "Definite Top 4 Dman" to "Will not play NHL games")

Wallinder

McIsaac

Johansson

Buium

Sebrango

Viro

Interesting.  This confirms what im thinking.  Edvinson, Seider, Hronek.  Thin after that as far as D talent we drafted.

[kipwinger 8,520]

50 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Interesting.  This confirms what im thinking.  Edvinson, Seider, Hronek.  Thin after that as far as D talent we drafted.

I wouldn't say "thin" but I agree that behind centers our biggest need is RHD. Wallinder will be a top 4 dman for a long time. McIsaac, Buium, and Johansson have 3rd pair floors with room to grow into bigger roles. After that it's more of a crap shoot. I'd still consider defense the strongest part of our organizational depth. Essentially we have a top 4, all 25 and under, already in the organization (Seider, Hronek, Edvinsson, Wallinder) with McIsaac, Johansson, Buium able to be in that conversation too. That's not too bad when you consider that between Kronwall and Hronek we really didn't draft and develop a single top 4 defenseman.

If I have to pick an organizational weakness it's still at center, though Larkin-Kasper-Ras-Veleno isn't as weak as I once thought our center depth was. Followed by goalie, but again, Husso-Ned-Cossa isn't terrible either.

Honestly, at this point I'd be drafting for dynamic skillsets. You've got all your foundational pieces in place. Now start looking for guys who can be game changers at whatever draft position you're sitting in.

And for the love of god SY, please sign Bo Horvat in the offseason.

Bert-Larkin-Raymond

Copp-Horvat-Kubalik

Perron-Ras-Vrana

Fabbri-Veleno-Berggren

 

Chiarot-Seider

Maatta-Hronek

Edvinsson-Whoever

 

^^^^^^^^^^^This is a Cup Contender^^^^^^^^^

Edited November 22, 2022 by kipwinger

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

McIsaac?  I thought he was bird feed by now.  

Obviously, this team needs at least one more offensive defenseman.  The best teams have multiple puck movers on the blue line.  

Regarding the 3rd pairing, those players are easily replaceable.  Even the Wings Cup teams didn't have players on the 3rd pair who were key figures in a playoff run.  You just need someone solid there who doesn't do anything stupid.

[bIueadams 776]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I wouldn't say "thin" but I agree that behind centers our biggest need is RHD. Wallinder will be a top 4 dman for a long time. McIsaac, Buium, and Johansson have 3rd pair floors with room to grow into bigger roles. After that it's more of a crap shoot. I'd still consider defense the strongest part of our organizational depth. Essentially we have a top 4, all 25 and under, already in the organization (Seider, Hronek, Edvinsson, Wallinder) with McIsaac, Johansson, Buium able to be in that conversation too. That's not too bad when you consider that between Kronwall and Hronek we really didn't draft and develop a single top 4 defenseman.

If I have to pick an organizational weakness it's still at center, though Larkin-Kasper-Ras-Veleno isn't as weak as I once thought our center depth was. Followed by goalie, but again, Husso-Ned-Cossa isn't terrible either.

Honestly, at this point I'd be drafting for dynamic skillsets. You've got all your foundational pieces in place. Now start looking for guys who can be game changers at whatever draft position you're sitting in.

And for the love of god SY, please sign Bo Horvat in the offseason.

Bert-Larkin-Raymond

Copp-Horvat-Kubalik

Perron-Ras-Vrana

Fabbri-Veleno-Berggren

 

Chiarot-Seider

Maatta-Hronek

Edvinsson-Whoever

 

^^^^^^^^^^^This is a Cup Contender^^^^^^^^^

Our D situation I great. After Mo, Ed, and Hronek, we really only need x1 more guy to hit to be in good shape and we have plenty of good prospects already.

I definitely want more centers. I'm pretty content with the goal for now.

I get the feeling SY isn't gonna spend big on UFA's anymore and will instead begin working in the youth until we're ready to make a playoff push. Would be fun if that' this year...   

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

McIsaac?  I thought he was bird feed by now.  

He's basically only played x1 AHL season so far. And now he's playing bigger minutes and is on pace to double his points from hiss last season. I predict he's next in line behind Eddog. Ajo still has a lot to prove, and Wallinder hasn't even come to NA yet. Floor for McI = KFQ. Ceiling = Brad Stuart. Jusst has to stay healthy.

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Obviously, this team needs at least one more offensive defenseman.  The best teams have multiple puck movers on the blue line.  

Regarding the 3rd pairing, those players are easily replaceable.  Even the Wings Cup teams didn't have players on the 3rd pair who were key figures in a playoff run.  You just need someone solid there who doesn't do anything stupid.

And who kept our playoff opponents honest in 08 and 09? 3rd pairing Andreas Lilja, that's who.
In today's NHL all 3 pairings matter. Your 3rd is gonna be out there for the better portion of an entire period most nights. And Lindstrom sucks. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

i think u guys are too optimistic.

[bIueadams 776]

21 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

i think u guys are too optimistic.

Wallinder = Jensen
McIsaac = Bowey
Ajo = Sproul
Buium = XO

[marcaractac 3,962]

7 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

i think u guys are too optimistic.

Says the guy who thinks Cossa will be NHL-ready by the trade deadline

[kipwinger 8,520]

12 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

i think u guys are too optimistic.

Optimistic how?

[marcaractac 3,962]

22 hours ago, bIueadams said:

So you are pro trading Lindstrom? 

I'll be honest, my OP was just an elaborate attempt to start a Lindstrom bashing thread. 

Right now im thinking package Lindstrom + Zadina + picks at the TDL to bring in some help for a playoff push. Currently were neck n neck for the #2 spot in our division. 

Dont sleep on McIsaac. I think he will be the number1 callup next year. He seems to be ahead of AJ and Sebrango in terms of icetime right now. 

 

I wouldn't say I'm pro-trading Linstrom. But unless we see significant growth from him in short order, I'm not sure where he fits in as other dmen start cracking the roster. 

I think he'll be in the league for a lot of years. But he'll likely need to end up on a bad team where he can get lots of playing time to get where he needs to be. I don't see where he gets that opportunity in Detroit. 

[kipwinger 8,520]

12 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Our D situation I great. After Mo, Ed, and Hronek, we really only need x1 more guy to hit to be in good shape and we have plenty of good prospects already.

I definitely want more centers. I'm pretty content with the goal for now.

I get the feeling SY isn't gonna spend big on UFA's anymore and will instead begin working in the youth until we're ready to make a playoff push. Would be fun if that' this year...   

 

Generally I'd agree, but the situation is fluid because we're actually a better team this year than anticipated. If teams want to have long term success they need to take advantage of entry level deals and undervalued deals. You lock up Horvat now, while you've got guys like Kubalik, Perron, Vrana, Raymond, Seider, Husso, outperforming their contracts you're in a really good position next year. The alternative is that you wait a year or two and a bunch of those guy are either gone or making so much more that you can't afford that missing piece or two if you need it.

 
 

 

[bIueadams 776]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Generally I'd agree, but the situation is fluid because we're actually a better team this year than anticipated. If teams want to have long term success they need to take advantage of entry level deals and undervalued deals. You lock up Horvat now, while you've got guys like Kubalik, Perron, Vrana, Raymond, Seider, Husso, outperforming their contracts you're in a really good position next year. The alternative is that you wait a year or two and a bunch of those guy are either gone or making so much more that you can't afford that missing piece or two if you need it.

 
 

 

In my mind the time line of the rebuild is this:

Phase 1: Suck azz and get good draft picks. When you feel like you have a solid prospect pool to build on, move to phase 2.

Phase 2 (WE ARE HERE): Acquire new coach and stabalizing support veterans for your prospects. Now is the time to work prospects on to the roster. If the prospects prove to be good future core players, move to phase 3.

Phase 3: Spend to the cap. Sell the farm and futures for mercenaries. Balls to the wall to win now. If you do this well move to phase 4.

Phase 4: Win the cup and return this cursed league back to the proper timeline.

 

That said I am an easily swayed man of whimsy and would gladly support going all in at this TDL if were in a playoff spot.

 

2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

I wouldn't say I'm pro-trading Linstrom. But unless we see significant growth from him in short order, I'm not sure where he fits in as other dmen start cracking the roster. 

I think he'll be in the league for a lot of years. But he'll likely need to end up on a bad team where he can get lots of playing time to get where he needs to be. I don't see where he gets that opportunity in Detroit. 

Hes lucky hes RHD and Buium is a ways out yet. His handedness might be what keeps him around. 

Really dont want to see Eddogg paired with him next fall...

Edited November 22, 2022 by bIueadams

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

8 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Says the guy who thinks Cossa will be NHL-ready by the trade deadline

did you see him in that clip?  The guy looks like Soderblom with massive goalie pads.  He must be 6'12" now.  I can't wait til we get him in there next year.  Ned's days are numbered.  This kid is the real deal.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

The real question is when do we move Chiarot?  His stock is certainly rising right now.  I would be looking at moving him THIS trade deadline and bringing up McIsaac and Edvinsson (9 games for Eddog max til playoffs).  I don't think Chiarot has a 4 year future here, and if he does - it will just cut into Edvinsson's program.  We are going to be able to get a good haul for him this deadline.  Hope Yzerman sees it that way.

[marcaractac 3,962]

16 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

did you see him in that clip?  The guy looks like Soderblom with massive goalie pads.  He must be 6'12" now.  I can't wait til we get him in there next year.  Ned's days are numbered.  This kid is the real deal.

He is not even in the AHL yet. Slow down. He isn't gonna be rushed because of his size. 

It's s*** like this that lead to people calling young prospects bust when they don't light up the league before they even hit 20.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

10 hours ago, marcaractac said:

He is not even in the AHL yet. Slow down. He isn't gonna be rushed because of his size. 

It's s*** like this that lead to people calling young prospects bust when they don't light up the league before they even hit 20.

he is a beast.  he will be our starter next year.

[bIueadams 776]

https://griffinshockey.com/news/detroit-sends-pair-to-toledo?s=09

Viro and Sebrango to Toledo, so the D is basically this in GR:

Edvinsson - Kampfer
Lashoff - Johansson
McIsaac - Newpower

Glad to see Johansson make the cut, he's officially ahead of Sebrango on the depth chart now.

[kipwinger 8,520]

Our offense is good enough to beat many teams most nights. And that's without Bert, Vrana, or Raymond playing at the upper end of their ability (or not playing at all). I thought we played Toronto even (or better) the other night, and I thought we generally dominated the play against Vegas last night. But our defense is still pedestrian. Better than the last couple years for sure, but not a defense that's going to shut the door. If you're not going to be a high octane offensive team you'd better have a stout defense. We don't. I realize the asking price makes all the difference in the world here, but I'd be calling on Chychrun right now and taking a REALLY hard look at the guy. Add him on the left size, and Edvinsson soon, and you'd finally have a competitive advantage at some position on the ice.

For now put Walman with Seider and Chiarot with Oesterle and play or pairs:

Walman-Seider (20 mins)

Maatta-Hronek (22)

Chiarot-Oesterle (18)