Restarting the rebuild - Fully wiping the Holland slate clean

[bIueadams 776]

What if SY didn't beef up this team in UFA to get better... he did it to prepare for a major sell off.

This team is much better with our new found depth. We might even squeak into the playoffs. But - real talk - we all know this team would be a bottom seed, and would get bounced by a powerhouse like Tampa or Boston in the 1st round. So I think it behooves us to sell at this deadline regardless of where we are in the picture.

Therefore, lets consider selling Bertuzzi AND Larkin - and begin the process of purging the last bits of Holland's tenure. It would explain why SY went and got Copp AND Kubalik AND Perron, when none of us really saw those Kuba and Perron signings coming. They are their to fill in the gaps for a departure of Larkin and Bertuzzi.

If one thing is for certain - if you're going to trade Larkin/Tuzzi - this is the LAST opportunity to do so. They still have low enough AAV's to be manageable for a playoff team in a trade, and they don't yet have the massive term they are about to get, and they will also both likely be a lot worse players when their next contracts are done.

BUT THEY ARE OUR CORE PLAYERS!!!

For right now they are yes, but Yzerman's core that he personally drafted is much younger. 5-10 years younger. Thinking of Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, Kasper, and Cossa here. By the time Kasper is ready to lead us to a cup Larkin will be in his mid 30's and on the last years of an albatross contract, weighing our cap down. With the way this league is going we're going to be seeing less mid 30's aged players going forward, not more.

Let's also talk about why this team is good but not GREAT, and can't compete with the big boys. It's been talked about on LGW for years: No Superstars. We don't just need a core, we need an elite core. Larkin and Bertuzzi are fantastic players, but they are not the elite of the NHL. We need Zetterbergs/Datsyuks and Yzermans/Fedorovs, not Larkins/Bertuzzis. This fact makes them both tradeable.

Now, also think about the reward/return for trading these two... We'd be so setup with draft picks and prospects it would be unreal.

This is our roster after the TDL (trading Larkin, Bertuzzi, Maata, Nedeljkovic, and Sundqvist [nobody else expiring has value])

Vrana - Copp - Raymond
Kubalik - Rasmussen - Perron
Fabbri - Veleno - Berggren
Erne - Suter - Soderblom
Zadina

Chiarot - Seider
Walman - Hronek
Oesterle - Lindstrom
Hagg

Husso
Hellberg

That's honestly no worse than what we saw the last 2 years. And think of the riches obtained from a TDL like this:

Larkin: 1st + loads more
Bertuzzi: 1st + more
Nedeljkovic: at least a 2nd
Maata: a 3rd?
Sundqvist: a 3rd?

Imagine adding TWO (or more) extra 1sts and multiple solid secondary picks. THAT could be the real corner turn for this team. We transition fully to the Kasper/Seider/Raymond/Edvinsson/Cossa core AND line our pockets with multiple other high draft picks to add to that. Not to mention our other great players lying in wait - Beggren, Soderblom, Wallinder, Johansson, Mazur, Hanas, Buium, Buchnelikov, Ali, James. This year could be the final injection of youth before we make Seider captain of this team and build to a dynasty led by him.

/rant over

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by bIueadams

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

How about this:

Trade: Bertuzxi, Johansson, Fabbri, our 2023 1st, and our 2025 1st for Chychrun.

Trade: Vrana, Chiarot, Zadina, Nedeljkovich, our 2023 2nd, and our 2024 1st for Kane, Toews, and Athanasiou.

Kane (8) - Larkin (8) - Raymond (1)

Kubalik (2.5) - Toews (8) - Perron (4.5)

Copp (5) - Kasper (1) - Athanasiou (3)

Rasmussen (3) - Veleno (2) - Berggren (1)

Sundqvist (2), Erne (2)

Chychrun (5) - Seider (1)

Edvinsson (1) - Hronek (4)

Wallinder (1) - Lindstrom (2)

Husso (5)

Cossa (1)

 

Total Cap - 71 mil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Jonas Mahonas

[redw1ngs 149]

Berts as good as gone. Larkin aint getting traded. Not happening.

9 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

How about this:

Trade: Bertuzxi, Johansson, Fabbri, our 2023 1st, and our 2025 1st for Chychrun.

Holy overpayment.

9 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Trade: Vrana, Chiarot, Zadina, Nedeljkovich, our 2023 2nd, and our 2024 1st for Kane, Toews, and Athanasiou.

Why tho?

[bIueadams 776]

1 hour ago, redw1ngs said:

Berts as good as gone. Larkin aint getting traded. Not happening.

Holy overpayment.

Why tho?

Why shouldnt Larkin also go?

Inb4 "hEs ThE cAPtAiN" and "HEs fRoM miCHiGan"

[redw1ngs 149]

21 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Why shouldnt Larkin also go?

Inb4 "hEs ThE cAPtAiN" and "HEs fRoM miCHiGan"

Being C and from MI is great but not the reason he wont be traded. Larkin isnt a SY draft pick but hes def a SY player. heart and soul and best player on the team. Career Red Wing.

[bIueadams 776]

43 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

Being C and from MI is great but not the reason he wont be traded. Larkin isnt a SY draft pick but hes def a SY player. heart and soul and best player on the team. Career Red Wing.

So he wont be traded because of a bunch of BS platitudes and euphemisms?

I highly doubt that Yzerman is that dull.

The only thing of substance you mentioned is hes the best player on the team. I dont disagree there. But best on team =/= non-tradeable.

And its not like Larkin is some generational talent or something either. Hes an average 1C. Replacable, same as Bertuzzi.

[kipwinger 8,658]

I see a few problems with this. First, gutting your team and trading all of your better players for draft picks absolutely guts your organizational culture. Easiest way to become an Ottawa or Buffalo or Edmonton is to get rid of every guy who would KILL to win a Stanley Cup and replace them with 20 year olds (no matter how highly skilled the new guys are).

Second, we don't have anything close to a 1C in our system. We'd have to tank for a few more years (and hope for lottery luck) just to get back to where we currently are. There's almost zero chance the owners are excited about having a losing franchise for even a day longer, let alone a few more years. Look at the crowds at the LCA right now. You think the Ilitch's want to go backward? No chance.

Edit: Here's what I'd do to move this team into the next tier.

1. Trade for Chychrun provided it doesn't cost Kasper or Edvinsson (Zadina, Wallinder, 1st probably gets your close).

2. Sign Horvat in the offseason (his favorite team was the Red Wings growing up and he's an Ontario guy).

3. Sign Vrana long term (he's one of the most prolific 5on5 goal scorers in the league).

4. Trade Bertuzzi at the deadline to recoup assets for the Chychrun deal and free up cap for Horvat.

That's it. That's how close we are to competing for Stanley Cups next year and beyond.

Edited December 6, 2022 by kipwinger

[redw1ngs 149]

12 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

So he wont be traded because of a bunch of BS platitudes and euphemisms?

I highly doubt that Yzerman is that dull.

The only thing of substance you mentioned is hes the best player on the team. I dont disagree there. But best on team =/= non-tradeable.

And its not like Larkin is some generational talent or something either. Hes an average 1C. Replacable, same as Bertuzzi.

He wont be traded =/= non-tradeable. He wont be traded because hes the best player on the team and the only quality top6c on the team. Trade your average 1C and all of the sudden your stuck with 2 3Cs playing top6c. Copp Rasmusen Veleno Suter are far from a 1C. Kasper might get there but even thats unlikely at this point.

injury prone top6w = trade bait

heart and soul captain 1c = keeper

[bIueadams 776]

24 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I see a few problems with this. First, gutting your team and trading all of your better players for draft picks absolutely guts your organizational culture. Easiest way to become an Ottawa or Buffalo or Edmonton is to get rid of every guy who would KILL to win a Stanley Cup and replace them with 20 year olds (no matter how highly skilled the new guys are).

Second, we don't have anything close to a 1C in our system. We'd have to tank for a few more years (and hope for lottery luck) just to get back to where we currently are. There's almost zero chance the owners are excited about having a losing franchise for even a day longer, let alone a few more years. Look at the crowds at the LCA right now. You think the Ilitch's want to go backward? No chance.

Edit: Here's what I'd do to move this team into the next tier.

1. Trade for Chychrun provided it doesn't cost Kasper or Edvinsson (Zadina, Wallinder, 1st probably gets your close).

2. Sign Horvat in the offseason (his favorite team was the Red Wings growing up and he's an Ontario guy).

3. Sign Vrana long term (he's one of the most prolific 5on5 goal scorers in the league).

4. Trade Bertuzzi at the deadline to recoup assets for the Chychrun deal and free up cap for Horvat.

That's it. That's how close we are to competing for Stanley Cups next year and beyond.

Lol you guys act like the sky would fall if we traded Larkin. Trading 1 player doesnt make us "lol buffalo". This team limped along with an AHL caliber defense for years - but heaven forbid a 2C plays in the 1C spot during a rebuild...

Im also hardly convinced ticket sales are tied at the hip to dylan larkin. But thats beside the point, this team has been in the gutter for years now. We wouldnt be taking a step back from anything.

Get a kings ransom for Larkin, sign little boy Bo in the offseason, and boom u got Horvat-Copp down the middle while we wait for Kasper and whatever C we draft this year. 

 

13 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

He wont be traded =/= non-tradeable. He wont be traded because hes the best player on the team and the only quality top6c on the team. Trade your average 1C and all of the sudden your stuck with 2 3Cs playing top6c. Copp Rasmusen Veleno Suter are far from a 1C. Kasper might get there but even thats unlikely at this point.

injury prone top6w = trade bait

heart and soul captain 1c = keeper

If we can go years without a 1D, or even a competent top4 in general, we can make due with a 2C in the 1 hole while we continue to draft

[marcaractac 3,963]

Selling Larkin is dumb. Unless he doesn't sign a deal before TDL. But that shouldn't happen. 

[kipwinger 8,658]

3 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Lol you guys act like the sky would fall if we traded Larkin. Trading 1 player doesnt make us "lol buffalo". This team limped along with an AHL caliber defense for years - but heaven forbid a 2C plays in the 1C spot during a rebuild...

Im also hardly convinced ticket sales are tied at the hip to dylan larkin. But thats beside the point, this team has been in the gutter for years now. We wouldnt be taking a step back from anything.

Get a kings ransom for Larkin, sign little boy Bo in the offseason, and boom u got Horvat-Copp down the middle while we wait for Kasper and whatever C we draft this year. 

 

If we can go years without a 1D, or even a competent top4 in general, we can make due with a 2C in the 1 hole while we continue to draft

This entire thread is proposed in bad faith. You absolutely wouldn't do what you're proposing if you were in charge. Also, nobody said the sky would fall if Larkin is traded. You're just bored.

[bIueadams 776]

1 minute ago, marcaractac said:

Selling Larkin is dumb. Unless he doesn't sign a deal before TDL. But that shouldn't happen. 

Tick tock. We're less than 20 days from Christmas. If he isnt signed by then the trade rumors are gonna start flowing...

[redw1ngs 149]

4 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

If we can go years without a 1D, or even a competent top4 in general, we can make due with a 2C in the 1 hole while we continue to draft

That was then this is now. You cant compare early days rebuild to today theres finally a light at the end of the tunnel. You dont trade your best player when your over halfway through whats shaping up to be a successful rebuild. Trading your captain warrior best player is not part the yzerplan.

7 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Selling Larkin is dumb. Unless he doesn't sign a deal before TDL. But that shouldn't happen. 

Dude no deal is getting signed mid season. The tdl will pass and Larkin will sign his contract this summer.

[kipwinger 8,658]

I think there's already a deal in place (for the most part). I think Larkin wants to be paid like a point per game 1C (9+ million), which he looked like all last year until he was injured. I think SY wants to pay him like an almost-point-per-game 1C (8-8.5 million). I think they've agree to play out most of the season to determine whether he's the former or the latter, at which point they sign the deal. I don't think there's any chance he walks.

[redw1ngs 149]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I think there's already a deal in place (for the most part). I think Larkin wants to be paid like a point per game 1C (9+ million), which he looked like all last year until he was injured. I think SY wants to pay him like an almost-point-per-game 1C (8-8.5 million). I think they've agree to play out most of the season to determine whether he's the former or the latter, at which point they sign the deal. I don't think there's any chance he walks.

^^^

[bIueadams 776]

5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

This entire thread is proposed in bad faith. You absolutely wouldn't do what you're proposing if you were in charge. Also, nobody said the sky would fall if Larkin is traded. You're just bored.

You compared my proposal to becoming buffalo, edmonton, ottawa. Thats a pretty dark doppler 7 forecast chicken little.

I absolutely would trade Larkin if we're planning on trading Bertuzzi. And this board seems pretty convinced Tyler is "good as gone" so here we are.

IMO we should be tanking or building. No in between. In between is a death trap into perpetual mediocrity. Therefore, if were selling, SELL. Nobody gets special treatment. 

5 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

That was then this is now. You cant compare early days rebuild to today theres finally a light at the end of the tunnel. You dont trade your best player when your over halfway through whats shaping up to be a successful rebuild. Trading your captain warrior best player is not part the yzerplan.

Dude no deal is getting signed mid season. The tdl will pass and Larkin will sign his contract this summer.

"Hes an SY player"

"Not part of the yzerplan"

You think these made up phrases prove something. They dont. 

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I think there's already a deal in place (for the most part). I think Larkin wants to be paid like a point per game 1C (9+ million), which he looked like all last year until he was injured. I think SY wants to pay him like an almost-point-per-game 1C (8-8.5 million). I think they've agree to play out most of the season to determine whether he's the former or the latter, at which point they sign the deal. I don't think there's any chance he walks.

I think there's already a deal in place (for the most part). I think Bertuzzi wants to be paid like a point per game 1W (8+ million), which he looked like all last year until he was injured. I think SY wants to pay him like an almost-point-per-game 1W (7-7.5 million). I think they've agree to play out most of the season to determine whether he's the former or the latter, at which point they sign the deal. I don't think there's any chance he walks.

Look I can make stuff up too

[kipwinger 8,658]

4 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

You compared my proposal to becoming buffalo, edmonton, ottawa. Thats a pretty dark doppler 7 forecast chicken little.

I absolutely would trade Larkin if we're planning on trading Bertuzzi. And this board seems pretty convinced Tyler is "good as gone" so here we are.

IMO we should be tanking or building. No in between. In between is a death trap into perpetual mediocrity. Therefore, if were selling, SELL. Nobody gets special treatment. 

"Hes an SY player"

"Not part of the yzerplan"

You think these made up phrases prove something. They dont. 

Not sure if you've been paying attention but we ARE rebuilding. Have been for a few years. As a result of that rebuild our team is improving, and will continue to improve as a result of the billion very good prospects we still have coming. You seem to be (pretend) suggesting that we should stop rebuilding and start tanking again.

[bIueadams 776]

15 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Not sure if you've been paying attention but we ARE rebuilding. Have been for a few years. As a result of that rebuild our team is improving, and will continue to improve as a result of the billion very good prospects we still have coming. You seem to be (pretend) suggesting that we should stop rebuilding and start tanking again.

If we are building then why trade Bertuzzi?

[LeftWinger 5,063]

19 hours ago, bIueadams said:

What if SY didn't beef up this team in UFA to get better... he did it to prepare for a major sell off.

This team is much better with our new found depth. We might even squeak into the playoffs. But - real talk - we all know this team would be a bottom seed, and would get bounced by a powerhouse like Tampa or Boston in the 1st round. So I think it behooves us to sell at this deadline regardless of where we are in the picture.

Therefore, lets consider selling Bertuzzi AND Larkin - and begin the process of purging the last bits of Holland's tenure. It would explain why SY went and got Copp AND Kubalik AND Perron, when none of us really saw those Kuba and Perron signings coming. They are their to fill in the gaps for a departure of Larkin and Bertuzzi.

If one thing is for certain - if you're going to trade Larkin/Tuzzi - this is the LAST opportunity to do so. They still have low enough AAV's to be manageable for a playoff team in a trade, and they don't yet have the massive term they are about to get, and they will also both likely be a lot worse players when their next contracts are done.

BUT THEY ARE OUR CORE PLAYERS!!!

For right now they are yes, but Yzerman's core that he personally drafted is much younger. 5-10 years younger. Thinking of Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, Kasper, and Cossa here. By the time Kasper is ready to lead us to a cup Larkin will be in his mid 30's and on the last years of an albatross contract, weighing our cap down. With the way this league is going we're going to be seeing less mid 30's aged players going forward, not more.

Let's also talk about why this team is good but not GREAT, and can't compete with the big boys. It's been talked about on LGW for years: No Superstars. We don't just need a core, we need an elite core. Larkin and Bertuzzi are fantastic players, but they are not the elite of the NHL. We need Zetterbergs/Datsyuks and Yzermans/Fedorovs, not Larkins/Bertuzzis. This fact makes them both tradeable.

Now, also think about the reward/return for trading these two... We'd be so setup with draft picks and prospects it would be unreal.

This is our roster after the TDL (trading Larkin, Bertuzzi, Maata, Nedeljkovic, and Sundqvist [nobody else expiring has value])

Vrana - Copp - Raymond
Kubalik - Rasmussen - Perron
Fabbri - Veleno - Berggren
Erne - Suter - Soderblom
Zadina

Chiarot - Seider
Walman - Hronek
Oesterle - Lindstrom
Hagg

Husso
Hellberg

That's honestly no worse than what we saw the last 2 years. And think of the riches obtained from a TDL like this:

Larkin: 1st + loads more
Bertuzzi: 1st + more
Nedeljkovic: at least a 2nd
Maata: a 3rd?
Sundqvist: a 3rd?

Imagine adding TWO (or more) extra 1sts and multiple solid secondary picks. THAT could be the real corner turn for this team. We transition fully to the Kasper/Seider/Raymond/Edvinsson/Cossa core AND line our pockets with multiple other high draft picks to add to that. Not to mention our other great players lying in wait - Beggren, Soderblom, Wallinder, Johansson, Mazur, Hanas, Buium, Buchnelikov, Ali, James. This year could be the final injection of youth before we make Seider captain of this team and build to a dynasty led by him.

/rant over

 

You start by saying "wiping the Holland slate clean" yet you are trading Maata, Ned and Sunny, all while keeping Zadina, Veleno and Rasmussen. I am not advocating trading Veleno or Rasmussen, but I just find it funny you are not really wiping Holland's slate, you are wiping Yzerman's.

Larkin is not Yzerman's draft pick but if Yzerman didn't believe in him, he would not have made him Captain. Larkin, IMO, is a life-long Red Wing.

Bertuzzi can be dealt, as can Zadina. With Vrana and Kubilik, they are not needed. Zadina is bust central. #ThanksHolland. If teams show an interest in Ned, I'd be ok with trading him, but we've yet to see Helburg play a big role, and Cossa is far from ready. May as well keep Husso and Ned until Cossa is ready. Unless we get a "WOW" offer for Ned.

Sunny, Fabbri, Suter, Haag and Maata, and to a lessor extent, Chiarot & Perron are all stopgaps. Walman and Oesterle probably won't be here after their contracts expire. I happen to like Suter, but with Berggren and Veleno, along with Rasmussen, he doesn't really fit long run in the bottom 6. Kasper, really isn't top 6 C either. But I'll save that for when he is here and (hopefully) proving me wrong.

BTW, Yzerman was 32 when he won his first Cup so if Larkin happens to be around in his 30's when we win a Cup, so be it. I'm fine with that, as is Yzerman I assume.

[LeftWinger 5,063]

9 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

If we are building then why trade Bertuzzi?

Honestly? Because this team has played, and played pretty darn well, without him this season. Trade him and get a player that more complement's the build (Mantha for Vrana) or get a couple of draft picks for him. I'm willing to bet that Vancouver would love to have Bertuzzi there and would not be opposed to sending Boeser back our way (in a package from us of course, not one for one.) Maybe Holland wants his prized draft pick Zadina back?

[kipwinger 8,658]

24 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

If we are building then why trade Bertuzzi?

You're misrepresenting my position on Bertuzzi. I'm not advocating for SY trading Bertuzzi. If Bert wants to sign a reasonable contract in Detroit then we should sign him. I think SY WILL trade Bertuzzi though because (as I've stated) his real value is difficult to determine because of his injuries and there's not a lot of time to figure it out. Up to this point in his career Bert has not preformed better than Tomas Tatar had at the same age. So is Bert a 5.5 million a year guy? Totally. SY should sign him at 5.5mil long term. Will he sign for that? Doubtful. Is he better than that? Maybe, injuries have been a factor. Can you be sure of that before the TDL? Not likely because he's A) hurt and B) having a s***ty season.

But again, you already know all this. You're smart. You're just bored and want to be oppositional because it's good sport for you. We've been in the bottom 10 in the league since drafting Rasmussen. The first year we aren't and you're suggesting we're flirting with "perpetual mediocrity". Again, you're not dumb so it's pretty clear you're doing what you always do, which is pick an absurd position and then see if you're clever enough to defend it in a debate. Ho hum.

Edited December 6, 2022 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 5,063]

10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

But again, you already know all this. You're smart. You're just bored and want to be oppositional because it's good sport for you. We've been in the bottom 10 in the league since drafting Rasmussen. The first year we aren't and you're suggesting we're flirting with "perpetual mediocrity". Again, you're not dumb so it's pretty clear you're doing what you always do, which is pick an absurd position and then see if you're clever enough to defend it in a debate. Ho hum.

and like I mentioned, this team is playing better this season without Bertuzzi. So why not dangle him out there and see what comes back? I am willing to bet a package of Bert, 1st, prospect gets us Boeser from Vancouver. I think 25 year old RW Boeser @ $6.6M for the next 3 years fits Yzerman's plan moreso than Bertuzzi at $6.6M. I'd even throw another roster player in to get him here.

Bertuzzi, Lindstrom, prospect and a top 10 protected 23 1st. Maybe even toss Zadina in there!

Edited December 6, 2022 by LeftWinger

[kipwinger 8,658]

Just now, LeftWinger said:

and like I mentioned, this team is playing better this season without Bertuzzi. So why not dangle him out there and see what comes back? I am willing to bet a package of Bert, 1st, prospect gets us Boeser from Vancouver. I think 25 year old RW Boeser @ $6.6M for the next 3 years fits Yzerman's plan moreso than Bertuzzi at $6.6M. I'd even throw another roster player in to get him here.

Bertuzzi, Lindstrom, prospect and a top 10 protected 23 1st.

That's a ridiculous overpayment for Brock Boeser.

[LeftWinger 5,063]

Just now, kipwinger said:

That's a ridiculous overpayment for Brock Boeser.

I'll admit, I don't know what it would take, but I am ok with that being overpayment! That just means Yzerman would be able to swing it for a less!

Bert, 1st?

Bert, Prospect?

Bert, Zadina?

[kipwinger 8,658]

Just now, LeftWinger said:

I'll admit, I don't know what it would take, but I am ok with that being overpayment! That just means Yzerman would be able to swing it for a less!

Bert, 1st?

Bert, Prospect?

Bert, Zadina?

I don't really have much interest in Boeser to be honest. He's a powerplay specialist who gets caved a 5on5 and is currently being massively overpaid.

And as I've stated above, I'm not in favor of trading Bert just to do it. If he wants to sign what he's worth (up to this point) I'd sign him. I just get the feeling he's going to want to go to UFA and see if someone is willing to pay him more because UFAs always get paid more and he's betting on himself.