Larkin & Bertuzzi Contract Watch? Red Wings TDL Discussion.

[diehardredwingsfan58 123]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Well Horvat just got 8x$8.5M, what does this mean for Larkin?

https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1622327301219164160?t=jIhugq3dLL6aE2-gG0bLoA&s=19

If anything, It definitely means that Larkin is a $9,000,000 per player. And probably will be playing elsewhere next fall. If he truly wants to remain in Detroit and i think he does. Than Yzerman should offer him the 8 x $8,500,000 Horvat deal and be done with it.

[marcaractac 3,963]

Yzerman needs to stick to the 8.2x8 that has been reported. Create a culture of taking less to win. If he wants his 9, let him find it elsewhere. If he caves to Larkin, he'll have to cave to everyone. Then you have the Leafs/Oilers problem. Minus the high-end talent. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

6 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Yzerman needs to stick to the 8.2x8 that has been reported. Create a culture of taking less to win. If he wants his 9, let him find it elsewhere. If he caves to Larkin, he'll have to cave to everyone. Then you have the Leafs/Oilers problem. Minus the high-end talent. 

I would agree with you with the exception of Larkin and other guys that actually produce consistently (Seider, Raymond, Hronek).  You need to reward production.  Im all for saying "get lost" to players who dont deserve to be compensated for future returns (Bertuzzi, etc), but letting .5 million per year hold up a contract negotiation in the middle of Larkin's prime is a bit foolish, imo.  I dont think there is a single chance this doesnt get done.

[kipwinger 8,522]

10 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I would agree with you with the exception of Larkin and other guys that actually produce consistently (Seider, Raymond, Hronek).  You need to reward production.  Im all for saying "get lost" to players who dont deserve to be compensated for future returns (Bertuzzi, etc), but letting .5 million per year hold up a contract negotiation in the middle of Larkin's prime is a bit foolish, imo.  I dont think there is a single chance this doesnt get done.

Totally agree. Plus there's the obvious question of where you find another 1C. There are none on the market, nobody is trading one, and anybody trading for Larkin (if you don't sign him) is doing so because they're trying to win the Cup. As such, their picks are going to be late rounders who generally don't turn into first line centers.

"But Kip, if we trade Larkin we'll suck and get a high pick to use on a 1C". Good theory. Except that outside of Larkin all of our best players are A) young, and B) getting better. This team is performing better than a year ago despite missing three top six players (Bert, Fabbri, and Vrana) all season SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE our young guys are good and getting better. To counteract that we'd need to trade not just Larkin, but probably Hronek, Copp, Jusso, and Chiarot too. And then throw guys like Seider, Ras, Berggren, Raymond, Edvinsson into the deep end. SUUUUUUPER good for team building and morale.

Or you could just overpay Larkin by .5 million, not completely destroy your team, and use this years top ten draft pick to try and find a 1C.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Totally agree. Plus there's the obvious question of where you find another 1C. There are none on the market, nobody is trading one, and anybody trading for Larkin (if you don't sign him) is doing so because they're trying to win the Cup. As such, their picks are going to be late rounders who generally don't turn into first line centers.

"But Kip, if we trade Larkin we'll suck and get a high pick to use on a 1C". Good theory. Except that outside of Larkin all of our best players are A) young, and B) getting better. This team is performing better than a year ago despite missing three top six players (Bert, Fabbri, and Vrana) all season SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE our young guys are good and getting better. To counteract that we'd need to trade not just Larkin, but probably Hronek, Copp, Jusso, and Chiarot too. And then throw guys like Seider, Ras, Berggren, Raymond, Edvinsson into the deep end. SUUUUUUPER good for team building and morale.

Or you could just overpay Larkin by .5 million, not completely destroy your team, and use this years top ten draft pick to try and find a 1C.

I really feel his true FMV worth is 8.5 mil per.  Do you see it the same?  Just want to see what you think.

[kipwinger 8,522]

14 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I really feel his true FMV worth is 8.5 mil per.  Do you see it the same?  Just want to see what you think.

No, but close. The thing about market value is that it fluctuates based on economic factors (supply and demand, cap space) right? So a player's value to one team isn't the same as a player's value to another. For example, do you think Edmonton would pay Larkin 8.5 million? Not a chance. Why? Because they don't need a center and they don't have the money. But supply and demand also changes from year to year as well. This year there are no other free agent centers of Larkin's caliber (now that Horvat has signed). He's a marginally better player than Barzal and Horvat and they signed for 9.1 and 8.5 respectively. There are no other quality centers, Detroit needs a 1C, and he's still fairly young (by UFA standards). So all things considered I'd say the market value for Larkin is probably 9.5. BUT here's the kicker, there are factors that work in the other direction too. He's from Michigan, he's the captain, the organization is trending upward, and only bad teams can afford to pay him 9.5. All reasons to take a little less. I'd say 8.5 is a steal, 9 million is a good deal, and 9.25-9.5 is paying a premium.

Edit: Fun tidbit, Lou Lamoriello, who just signed Bo Horvat's new contract, said of the  deal "It's too long and too much money". Lol. This is the guy who signed Kovalchuk to a 17 year/100+ million dollar contract. The very same contract that necessitated the league limiting the length and AAV of all future contracts. I genuinely can't believe anyone would allow that senile old coot to run a modern hockey club.

Edited February 6, 2023 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 4,958]

How about $8.75Mx8 which is a $70M contract. Give him a signing bonus and incentive bonus which equals a $76M ttl value, thus equaling a $9.5M possible AAV. That would make him more than happy, no?

[LeftWinger 4,958]

Quote

Good riddance. The only player on the team who gets more unearned goodwill than Bertuzzi is Zadina. Zadina has never contributed anything to the organization despite two GMs and coaches giving him every single opportunity to do so. Bertuzzi had one good year when it didn't matter and one year later we're a better team without him than we were last year when he was putting up career numbers. They're both clowns. #tradedeadline2023

This quote is from @kipwinger in the News From Around the League thread.

I wouldn't be sad if Bertuzzi and Zadina were dealt. Bertuzzi still has some value and could fetch a pick and a prospect, Zadina I don't think would fetch too much by himself, but in a package, it could return some nice things! I'd still like to see what a package of Zadina and Hronek (with salary retained) would bring back. I know Hronek is finding his own lane now, but his value has never been higher. He is 3rd in scoring on the team and should surpass his point totals from last season. He cold be approaching his prime right now and just may be past it by time Detroit contends. So maybe trade him for a younger D prospect? Take on a bad salary, retain 50% and Yzerman could get a very nice return.

[kipwinger 8,522]

3 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

This quote is from @kipwinger in the News From Around the League thread.

I wouldn't be sad if Bertuzzi and Zadina were dealt. Bertuzzi still has some value and could fetch a pick and a prospect, Zadina I don't think would fetch too much by himself, but in a package, it could return some nice things! I'd still like to see what a package of Zadina and Hronek (with salary retained) would bring back. I know Hronek is finding his own lane now, but his value has never been higher. He is 3rd in scoring on the team and should surpass his point totals from last season. He cold be approaching his prime right now and just may be past it by time Detroit contends. So maybe trade him for a younger D prospect? Take on a bad salary, retain 50% and Yzerman could get a very nice return.

Aside from the fact that there's nothing you could get in a trade for Hronek that's more valuable than he is, if you retained salary on him you should (and no doubt would) be fired. He's overperforming his contract pretty substantially, he's signed for another year, AND he's an RFA when it expires so he's under team control.

In essence you'd be paying some other team to fleece you in a trade.

[LeftWinger 4,958]

9 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Aside from the fact that there's nothing you could get in a trade for Hronek that's more valuable than he is, if you retained salary on him you should (and no doubt would) be fired. He's overperforming his contract pretty substantially, he's signed for another year, AND he's an RFA when it expires so he's under team control.

In essence you'd be paying some other team to fleece you in a trade.

Ok. I am not about getting fleeced! 

[marcaractac 3,963]

57 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

No, but close. The thing about market value is that it fluctuates based on economic factors (supply and demand, cap space) right? So a player's value to one team isn't the same as a player's value to another. For example, do you think Edmonton would pay Larkin 8.5 million? Not a chance. Why? Because they don't need a center and they don't have the money. But supply and demand also changes from year to year as well. This year there are no other free agent centers of Larkin's caliber (now that Horvat has signed). He's a marginally better player than Barzal and Horvat and they signed for 9.1 and 8.5 respectively. There are no other quality centers, Detroit needs a 1C, and he's still fairly young (by UFA standards). So all things considered I'd say the market value for Larkin is probably 9.5. BUT here's the kicker, there are factors that work in the other direction too. He's from Michigan, he's the captain, the organization is trending upward, and only bad teams can afford to pay him 9.5. All reasons to take a little less. I'd say 8.5 is a steal, 9 million is a good deal, and 9.25-9.5 is paying a premium.

Edit: Fun tidbit, Lou Lamoriello, who just signed Bo Horvat's new contract, said of the  deal "It's too long and too much money". Lol. This is the guy who signed Kovalchuk to a 17 year/100+ million dollar contract. The very same contract that necessitated the league limiting the length and AAV of all future contracts. I genuinely can't believe anyone would allow that senile old coot to run a modern hockey club.

Lou has that 'just bought his kid a PS5' engergy 

[kipwinger 8,522]

1 minute ago, marcaractac said:

Lou has that 'just bought his kid a PS5' engergy 

You know that meme where the guy puts a stick into the spokes of the bike he's riding? That's Lou Lamoriello.

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

You know that meme where the guy puts a stick into the spokes of the bike he's riding? That's Lou Lamoriello.

100% 

Must be nice to be a geezer GM and not have any concern about the future of the franchise. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by marcaractac

[Walman6million 250]

Isnt this a contract year for Lou? Hes probably fighting for his job right now, and if he doesnt swing then hes def gone. 

[kipwinger 8,522]

2 hours ago, Walman6million said:

Isnt this a contract year for Lou? Hes probably fighting for his job right now, and if he doesnt swing then hes def gone. 

It's not really a "swing" though. He gave a player a contract that almost everyone agrees is fair. If it's "too much for too long" then he's only got himself to blame for that state of affairs. If Lou doesn't want guys like Lou to overpay on contracts, then maybe Lou should reign in Lou.

It's like that time Brandon Prust wrote an article for The Player's Tribune defending enforcers. He reasoned that you need enforcers to keep the "rats" from hurting star players. Trouble is, Brandon Prust IS A RAT THAT HURTS STAR PLAYERS. Instead of having enforcers stop guys like Brandon from being rats, Brandon could just stop guys like Brandon from hurting star players...by not doing that.

Edited February 6, 2023 by kipwinger

[Walman6million 250]

29 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

It's not really a "swing" though. He gave a player a contract that almost everyone agrees is fair. If it's "too much for too long" then he's only got himself to blame for that state of affairs. If Lou doesn't want guys like Lou to overpay on contracts, then maybe Lou should reign in Lou.

It's like that time Brandon Prust wrote an article for The Player's Tribune defending enforcers. He reasoned that you need enforcers to keep the "rats" from hurting star players. Trouble is, Brandon Prust IS A RAT THAT HURTS STAR PLAYERS. Instead of having enforcers stop guys like Brandon from being rats, Brandon could just stop guys like Brandon from hurting star players...but not doing that.

Isles have a salary heavy roster that is impossible to rebuild at this time with. Ownership expecting playoffs. And Lou is in a contract year. 

Horvat was a swing for short term gains. Lous hoping that works and saves his job. Figure out how to handle the mess he's now made later. 

Hollandesque, but I see why hes doing what hes doing. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

8.75 x 8.  Wrap it up, Stevie.

[Axl Foley 222]

9 x 8 is fair. You cant expect a player to take a discount for a team that finishes in the bottom 10. That's for contending teams that need players to take less to stay on top.

[diehardredwingsfan58 123]

4 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

8.75 x 8.  Wrap it up, Stevie.

Yeah isn't that around his jersey number? $71,000,000 would be perfect.

[Spongewingredpants 75]

probably an unpopular take

 

Forget about Bertuzzi. Too injury prone

As for Larkin. not sure how big the gap is but it must be big. I am suspecting that Larkins team wants a captains salary more than a I am an above average player on a struggling team

 

EA Sports made me sign Seider for 12 Million after his entry level contract expired Now my roster is pucked next season

[LeftWinger 4,958]

2 hours ago, Spongewingredpants said:

probably an unpopular take

 

Forget about Bertuzzi. Too injury prone

As for Larkin. not sure how big the gap is but it must be big. I am suspecting that Larkins team wants a captains salary more than a I am an above average player on a struggling team

 

EA Sports made me sign Seider for 12 Million after his entry level contract expired Now my roster is pucked next season

Really? I got Mo for $6.8M! He must of done better for you than he did for me!

[LeftWinger 4,958]

I'm thinking this makes Larkin even more of a $9m player. 

 

[Walman6million 250]

25 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I'm thinking this makes Larkin even more of a $9m player. 

 

Buffalo will now sign Tage Thompson to a max league contract

[kipwinger 8,522]

2 hours ago, Walman6million said:

Buffalo will now sign Tage Thompson to a max league contract

Didn't they already do that?

[Walman6million 250]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Didn't they already do that?

Oh they did

I see he didn't get skinner money