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GoWings1905

Member Since 27 Mar 2007
Online Last Active Today, 09:52 PM
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#2535303 Lines Thread

Posted by Dabura on Yesterday, 12:03 AM

Jurco scored 15 pts in his first stint, I liked him a lot, but he's far from the next coming. Tatar has been playing for this organization since 09. Nyquist since 2010. Jurco started in GR in 2012. He has more time to do. He is not more special than Tatar or Nyquist.

 

A few things:

  • Who's to say Jurco isn't the next coming (whatever that means exactly)?
  • Who's to say Jurco's not more special than Tatar or Nyquist and that ultimately he won't outshine one or both of them? Tatar played in 73 games last season and put up 39 points. Jurco - who's two years Tatar's junior (21 and 23, respectively) - did put up only 15 points last season, but he only played in 36 games. Had he played in 73 games, he likely would've been good for about 30 points, not far off from Tatar's 39.
  • Does a player have to be The Next Coming to play in our top nine?
  • A key reason why Tatar and Nyquist were held down so long: they're smallish skill players. Jurco has the makings of a top-six power forward.

Just saying. If we opened the season with Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco as our third line, I doubt many people would be saying, "Clearly Jurco needs more time on the farm." Instead, I think we say what we said about that line last season: "This line is the s***!"




#2535223 Alfie wants to play

Posted by wings4thecup06 on 30 August 2014 - 07:50 AM

LOL Cleary is absolutely an NHL calibre player. If he comes to camp healthy, he should without a doubt be capable of producing as a third line support guy. The big question is whether or not he is finally healthy... I don't like this signing any more than any other Wings fan, but I do have a ton of respect for Dan Cleary and for the Wings management (Ken Holland) for honoring their handshake deal from last year. I find it very difficult to believe that some Wings "fans" are actually hoping Cleary fails.f****** ridiculous... I hope he proves all the haters wrong and plays 50+ games and puts up 20+ points.

 

I have a ton of respect for Cleary. But I'm completely divided on this issue. Part of me wants Danny to have a real strong season, but then the other half of me wants several prospects - Jurco and Mantha mainly, to play better than him in preseason so they force managements hand into playing them full time in the NHL this season. More so for Jurco than Mantha, but you get the point. I don't want Cleary to fail or suck though. But part of me feels its time to move on and properly make the young guns transition. Jurco is a big part of that IMO, and if we can get nearly a full season of Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco, we'll be a stronger team. 




#2535224 Alfie wants to play

Posted by DickieDunn on 30 August 2014 - 07:58 AM

Cleary used to be a very good role player. Now his knees are shot and he can't skate. Unless he found some magic pills that healed them, he shouldn't be anywhere near an NHL ice surface. If they really wanted him back he should have gotten a tryout deal. Now I'd he doesn't make it the Wings are stuck with 2.5 mil in cap hit because you know he'll get his 10 games in.


#2534989 Las Vegas rumored to get an expansion team

Posted by MabusIncarnate on 26 August 2014 - 10:48 PM

Yeah, I mean Phoenix is doing so well, let's toss another team right next to them. 

 

So what fun and exciting name are they going to slap on this one?

 

If any of those cities was going to be the first "lock" to get an NHL expansion team, Vegas is the last one on the list I thought would be receiving one. Seattle or QC makes the most sense.




#2534519 Ice Bucket ALS Challenge: Bettman edition

Posted by T.Low on 18 August 2014 - 07:29 PM

My 75 yr old Mom.




#2534541 Lines Thread

Posted by darkmanx on 19 August 2014 - 06:42 AM

Under no circumstances should Abby be in the top 6. He has proven he isn't capable of playing that role and has what, 40 points in the last 120 games while playing with two of the best players in the league. I can't even count how many breakaways or open nets he misses, and gets goals because the puck bounces off him. Jurco should be in that role over Abby, has way more skill and plays bigger then Abby most of the time.




#2534315 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Jesusberg on 15 August 2014 - 01:05 PM

Things I will give Ken Holland full credit for:

 

-Restocking the prospect shelves. Let's face it, the drafting was pretty hit and miss during the early to mid 2000's. Kenny doesn't get full credit here, but he was part of turning around the prospect pool.

 

-Being smart with prospect progression. I know a lot of people hate the whole overripe thing, but Nyquist and Tatar are examples of players who have greatly benefited from gaining experience in the minors.

 

-Signing younger players to solid deals. I think his "bridge deals" are a real positive. Guys like Zetterberg, Filppula and Kronwall all got them, now it's guys like Tatar and most likely Nyquist next year. He seems to be good with the younger player's deals.

 

-Rebuilding on the fly. Most teams need to tank, sell off their assets and completely alter their team. Detroit's managed to keep their superstars, and nearly all of their promising young players while staying competitive. Whatever your definition of competitive is, Detroit hasn't been a basement dweller - that's a plus in my eyes.

 

Things I don't think are Ken Holland's fault:

 

-Missing out on big name free agents. The salary cap has changed the playing field in the NHL, but I also think that the attitudes of players have changed. It's almost as if they want teams to chase them. The whole Suter thing was mind-boggling to me. You're a GM and you get on a plane to go talk to a player? Guys wanting to play in their hometowns, with their best friends, etc. is out of Ken's hands, I think. Does he need to change his approach, perhaps? It's a situation now where players want three things: comfort, comradery and cap hit. The one thing Kenny can control is giving out money, so luring players here is going to be a matter of over payment, I think.

 

Things I want to slap Ken Holland for:

 

-Misguided loyalty to veteran players. The list of players could go on and on, but we know the deal here.

 

-Bringing back familiar talent. I think you can also accuse Kenny of playing it "too safe" here. Bringing back talent to take the places of prospects he feels aren't ready yet. It's kind of a double-edged sword, but at times I think Kenny holds guys back too much. It was great for Gus and Tatar to stay down, but then the team also had that mess at the beginning of the year with Bert, Sammy and Cleary taking up spots.

 

-Poor judgement with trades and contracts. The Quincey and Legwand trades still bother me. Giving out 3 million dollar, NTC contracts to 35+ year-old vets, and a 4.25 million dollar contract to a pylon.

 

All things considered, I don't think there's another guy for the job right now, but that doesn't mean I think Kenny is totally effective in his post. He's done a lot of great things for this team, and recently some not-so-great things. If he could just alter his approach to trading, I think he would be totally set.

 

This team is entering a situation where the star players will be done in a few seasons, and there's quite a bit of talent waiting in the wings to take their place. The question is, which guys are going to become legitimate superstars, and what is Kenny going to do with the excess talent? I think Nyquist, Mantha, Jurco and Tatar all have potential to be star forwards on this team, DeKeyser, Ouellet and Sproul strike me as the future of the blueline, but who knows what will happen when they're not insulated anymore. Kenny's going to have some big decisions to make with the talent on this team, and they're going to determine if this entire "rebuild on the fly" process was really effective or not.




#2534201 Alfie wants to play

Posted by martinezsvsu on 14 August 2014 - 12:22 AM

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Jurco
Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist
Tatar-Sheahan-Alfredsson
Miller-Helm-Abdelkader

-thats the lineup i want too. my argument is we can have both alfie and jurco. maybe jurco will start in GR and miss 15-20 games but thats not a big deal. yes starting the best 12 forwards does involve jurco, but it also involves alfie.




#2534258 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 14 August 2014 - 02:11 PM

 

I dunno, harold. I think over the course of this five year drought we've always been a couple key pieces away from seriously competing for the Cup. At the same time, our prospect cupboards were empty, and the brain trust has done a really good job of re-stocking. Right now we have one of the better prospect pools in the league, and I think we're still just a couple key pieces away from being a serious contender, because we still have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen. I think that's rebuilding on the fly. Over the course of a few years you remain competitive, maybe trying for a UFA home run here and there - but the focus is on keeping the competitive core while building up a solid stable of very promising young players that will hopefully complement that core and one day take over. Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco have broken through, Smith and DeKeyser should take big steps forward this season, and we're also looking at four or five very good D prospects waiting in the wings, Anthony Mantha being no more than a year away, and our goalie of the future spending his final season as a Griffin.

 

I (want to) believe Ken Holland has been doing what he's been doing for good reason and that the past few years of "futility" are going to pay off in a big way.

 

Admittedly I don't know a ton about our prospects. Historically though people here tend to talk like they are all going to make the roster and contribute in a significant way when the reality is that most prospects don't shake out. 

 

My big problem is that even if the Wings are a couple key pieces away from a serious Cup run, Holland isn't landing them and is content to sign some aging vet (and likely former Wing) to fill that hole.  The Nyquist situation was absolutely ridiculously and hurt the team.

 

I think Babcock has done a tremendous job given the mish mash of spare parts he's had to work with over the last few seasons, partly due to injury and partly due to Kenny.  




#2534256 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 14 August 2014 - 01:50 PM

 

Best post in this thread.  I agree 100%.

 

Yes, I am not happy with Holland's lack of success when it comes to luring free agents.  At the same time though, he has kept us competitive.  We continue to make the playoffs, and people forget that a year ago, we took the cup champs to 7 games and had them on the ropes up 3 games to 1.  The cup champions last season were #6 in the western conference.  Making the playoffs, being healthy, and getting some puck luck is really all it takes to win the cup these days. 

 

For those of you who want to see Holland gone, I would challenge you to find a GM that is better on the market right now.  I see no reason to ditch Holland now in exchange for someone unknown or unproven.

 

I know I am happy with the work he has done in the past, and even though the Wings haven't won the cup or been to the cup finals since 2009, I am good with this signing.

 

That's a pretty easy challenge for you to win considering you never really know who is on the market as a GM until they take a job somewhere.  :lol:




#2534230 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Jesusberg on 14 August 2014 - 10:48 AM

I honestly don't think the guy is a bad general manager - he's proven just the opposite over the years. I just think some aspects of the game have passed him by - namely making moves and having a good relationship with other general managers.

That being said, results are results. Regardless of his intentions, Holland hasn't made too many impact moves of late. The ones he's tried to make haven't turned out well. I'm not overly thrilled with the term, but I guess we'll see how it goes. Bonus is if this gets Babs to sign on for some term, otherwise it's kind of "meh" for me.




#2534119 Who is YOUR most under-appreciated/unsung Red Wing?

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 12 August 2014 - 05:33 PM

 

And of the Pens 2009 Cup run.  If I ever see Brad Stuart anywhere, I'll do this.......

 

 

tumblr_mif7bdstDz1qfgb83o2_250.gif

 

 

 

 

I liked Lapointe.  Good checker, great in the playoffs, cool goatee and the ladies loved him.

 

Then he went to Boston and robbed them of lots of money.  

 

Yes, yes, I know.  The Wings lost the Cup because of Stuart.  Or was it because of not suspending Malkin?  I can never remember which.  It surely couldn't have been that they got outplayed by a hungrier team. 

 

By pinning the Cup loss on Stuart, you're kinda making my point.  He's definitely an underappreciated Wings player. 




#2534149 Alfie wants to play

Posted by DickieDunn on 13 August 2014 - 11:29 AM

The things Jurco needs to work on can be done in the NHL. He's ready. Even more importantly, he brings a much needed blend of skill and physical play. They can easily keep both Jurco and Alfredsson, Helm or Sheahan centers the third line and the other one between Miller and Abdelkader. Andersson, Cleary, Glendening, Ferraro, and Callahan can fight for the two reserve spots. Any of those 5 would be no great loss in the event they were claimed.


#2534143 Alfie wants to play

Posted by Jesusberg on 13 August 2014 - 09:34 AM

First off, I think this roster is going to be a bit of a mess at the start of the season. All the question marks surrounding Weiss - Will he stay healthy? Who will he find chemistry with? Can he produce like the 2nd line center he's supposed to be? Along with that, we've got Dan Cleary, for at least 10 games, trying to prove he can still play hockey. I'd keep Jurco away from that, for now. Tie goes to the veteran, and even when it's not a tie... well... I think about the way Tatar was mishandled at the beginning of last season and I cringe.

 

The contract is going to carry over into next season too for Alfie. Same with Cleary once he plays his lousy ten games. So the Wings are paying for two players that either don't drastically or at all improve their chances of winning this year or beyond. Sure, there will be injuries but why does that matter? The 12 best forwards should start on the team and Tomas Jurco is one of them.

It took until mid-November to get Gustav Nyquist up last season. I'm not saying Jurco will have that same impact, but I would rather watch him progress against NHL competition and building for the future than veterans that don't change the immediate outlook for the Red Wings.

Alfie was solid until February and then disappeared. Whether it be fatigue or injury, both of those are probable to occur again when dealing with an athlete over 40. It goes back to the direction of the organization. Does a fringe playoff team really benefit from using veterans at the expense of youth? If I thought the Wings could win a Cup, then I'm all for keeping Alfie. Otherwise, I'm not sure there's a real purpose.

 

I see your point about the carry over bonuses, but the team's got about 15 million in space, and that's not taking into account the cap going up by whatever it will go up by. Only Nyquist, Jurco and Smith to retain - I'm not sure what they'll do with Andersson, but if they keep him, he'll be cheap. Add in whatever bonuses carry over and their new cap hits, and I still think we've got plenty of room. If there are reasons to not bring in Alfie, I don't think carry over bonuses are up there, considering the team is in a pretty good situation.

 

As for the best 12 forwards playing, I agree to an extent. If by "best" you mean the most skilled, I think there's still a need for role players. Jurco would have to be on the 3rd line or above for me to want him on this team. I think that if he can play in an insulated situation in the top 9, he could be up... otherwise, he's better off in GR.

 

Nyquist taking until November to be on the team was a pain... a huge pain. I also think it was a far different situation. You had Bertuzzi, Samuelsson and Cleary expected to play skilled roles when the skill just wasn't there anymore. Here's Gus in the AHL, who can clearly outplay any of those guys in that role, and he's languishing. I'm not sure that's the same situation here. As I've said before, while Jurco showed flashes of brilliance, he also fell off a bit. I think there's still something to be learned in the AHL for Tomas. Alfie's good for "top 6 forward" points - he's not a Samuelsson or Bertuzzi. Apples and oranges, IMO.

 

Alfie's fatigue, if I'm remembering correctly, can be attributed in part to being overplayed during the Olympics. I remember a few people around here ranting about it. Believe me, I'm not confused here - 40+ year-olds aren't going to hold up as well over an 82 game season, but I think last year was a unique situation that contributed to his drop off. Nyquist dropped off, too. It happens to a lot of guys. It's not just an age thing. At the end of the day, I think having a guy who can produce at a .72 PPG clip, even if it's only for 60 or so games, is worth hanging onto.

 

I'm sure it sounds like a cop-out, but I really have concern over how they'd handle Jurco in this situation. I think that if he is on the team, I'd want it to be in an insulated situation. 3rd line minutes on a line with Sheahan-Alfredsson would be fantastic, I think. The issue there is pushing Abdelkader out of the top 9, and into the 4th line with Miller-Helm. It would also mean one of Franzen, Nyquist or Tatar next to Z-Pavs, and I think we know which way Babcock would go on that one.

 

In fact if it came down to cleary or Alfie I'd choose cleary. Because he gave everything he had for this team(yes I still wish he would retire!). But cleary has done A LOT for this team. However I'd still prefer pulk and jurco over cleary and Alfie.

 

You lost me there. Taking a beaten up, ineffective veteran over one who can still produce for the sake of nostalgia. You stop it right now, Kenny.




#2534073 Alfie wants to play

Posted by kipwinger on 12 August 2014 - 08:44 AM

I don't see why everyone's so eager to compare Jurco to Tatar and Nyquist and not to Sheahan.  Oh wait, yeah I do.  Because it's convenient for their argument.  Sheahan wasn't ready either.  Looked lost in his call ups.  Didn't really fit.  Then he comes up and earns a spot because he wants it.  Just like you're supposed to do. 

 

To me it comes down to this:  I think we'd be a better team with some guys who can score in and around the crease.  We currently don't really have any (maybe Franzen).  I think we'd be harder to play against.  And I think that even if Jurco scored 15 fewer points than Alfie, we'd still be a better team if it gave us more than one offensive look.

 

As it stands we're a team full of guys who can only score from the perimeter...again.  And teams have figured out how to beat us in the playoffs.  I know it makes everybody feel better to blame injuries, but the fact is that our perimeter game hasn't worked in about 5 years.  Alfie doesn't help that.  Jurco would.