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#2090607 1/4 GDT: Red Wings 5 at Oilers 3

Posted by gcom007 on 04 January 2011 - 06:28 PM

Go Ozzie!

I realize that I'm biased, being a huge Ozzie fan, but I am also strong in my feelings that Howard is the Goalie of the Future for this team.

Still, I feel it is in the best interest of both the goalies and the team that both start as much as possible (edge to Howard) so that Howard is fresh for the playoffs and Ozzie is ready in case of the unthinkable.

Go Wings!!!!!

Ozzie with the double hat trick and a Gordie Howe to boot!

Well said about the Ozzie-Howard thing. I don't know how you can really not really like both of these guys. I think Howard's got a ton of potential and I really hope he is the goalie of the future and successful at that. But that said, I think Osgood needs to be starting more and I think they need to get back to developing Howard instead of trying to force him into a starting role that he wasn't quite ready for yet. It's absolutely no knock on him as a goalie. We're really, really, really lucky to have a couple guys that aren't head cases, who are humble and team guys that seem to love playing here. It's a great situation. I just hope Babcock doesn't drive Jimmy into the ground this year. That's why I want to see a shift back to a real rotation and Osgood starting in the playoffs for Jimmy to observe so he can really be ready in 1-2 years. Patience is cool. It's why Osgood has got a lot of Cups and 400 wins. Jimmy's too talented and too good of a guy to waste by burning him out early.

#2090604 Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

Posted by gcom007 on 04 January 2011 - 06:19 PM

I don't want to speculate too much, but I can't help but think that Ken Holland likely had more than a small say in the decision to start Osgood tonight. With Babcock announcing Howard the starter previously, I'd be surprised if he just up and changed his mind on his own. Maybe, but I really doubt it, and there's absolutely historical evidence to suggest that it's happened before.

Regarding many of Outsiders claims, I'd like to chime in as someone who has heard a fair share of chatter over the years. What he's saying about guys talking is true, absolutely. Some talk more than others, some keep it more professional, some guys say things that will really surprise you. I've heard more about rather serious injuries that are kept quiet than anything though. I've heard gripes, and I believe others have too, but I do question how much is deeply-rooted and how much is standard in a player-coach relationship, much like many employee-boss relationships. Babcock is definitely not the "best friend" type of coach by a long shot. That's obvious. But I think the players do respect him even when they question him. They questioned Bowman too, but they absolutely respected him. As much as Babcock? I don't think so, but he's still the coach and they know that, even when they don't like that.

So all that to say, while I do believe Outsider's heard "things," I would venture to guess the nature of it playing out on the ice is less extreme than suggested. Again, we're all human and we all get frustrated and we all sometimes don't think our bosses know what they're doing. And you know what? Our bosses our humans too and oftentimes they really don't know what they're doing. But these guys are pro's for a reason. It might not always be rosy, and there might be games where things are off because of clashes behind the scenes, but these guys know what it means to be a team when it counts. Don't doubt that.

#2090582 Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

Posted by VM1138 on 04 January 2011 - 05:08 PM

It's not all about the stats. I don't see why Howard's defenders have to attack Ozzie to build themselves up. The key to Ozzie's performances is that he's making the huge, key saves when necessary. When was the last time we heard "Huge save by Howard!" when it was ACTUALLY a big save and not just an accident.

Ozzie is giving this team a chance to win, Howard has stopped doing that.

#2089803 Should Valtteri Filppula be traded?

Posted by gcom007 on 03 January 2011 - 12:01 AM

I love how people bring up cold streaks by Filppula, but we have two of the streakiest players on the league on this team, except they're paid first line money.

Franzen's cap hit is less than a million more than Flip's and by the end of the year he'll likely be leading our team in goals scored by a healthy margin. Not only that, he'll likely have almost as many goals as Flip has points if both stay healthy. Plus, so long as he's healthy in the playoffs, he's a big game player.

And really, you can't compare his streaks or Zetterbergs or Dats or whoever you're thinking as they're simply rarely as notable even proportionally. Last year was an off year for nearly everyone on this team so you really can't use that as a measure. Between losing so many guys all at once in the off-season and then losing so many to injuries, there just was little chance for this team to be successful and get something going. Franzen never came back 100% either. Zetterberg may underachieve offensively at times, but he still brings so much to the team and has a tendency of finishing on a strong note. But with these guys, at worst there's still a fairly steady stream of offense throughout the season.

Oh, and I hope you're just referring to offense and not Lids or Raffi...

With Flip though, he's never putting up big numbers by seasons end to compensate for any hint of streaky play that may exist. Look at last year towards the end of the season. In 3 games in a row, he puts up 4 goals and 8 points. The 5 games prior to that he musters up 1 assist while in the 9 games after that he's only able to add 1 assist. Prior to that rather bizarre ending to the season, he was playing fairly consistently compared to his previous seasons. But it's always something with him. He has a solid year when healthy and then has a 3 game burst among 14 games of pure slump despite the team around him playing better than they had at any point in the season.

And the streaky comments wouldn't mean as much if the basis for the idea that he can put up higher offensive numbers weren't based on streaky periods of play in which he's hot for a few games before and after being cold, cold and cold...he's yet to have a full season in which he's demonstrated that he can consistently produce. Every other guy making more money than him has had the end of season point totals to take away from the "streaky" comments. He's still never had more than 40 points and he's yet to put in a full season of at least semi-consistent offensive play. Until he delivers a season that allows you to change the nature of what is currently an absolute fact, you are going to have a hard time logically defending the idea of him being a consistent offensive player.

#2089797 Should Valtteri Filppula be traded?

Posted by gcom007 on 02 January 2011 - 11:25 PM

gcom, you continually say that we should split up Z and Pav, yet each of the past three years, we ended the playoffs with Z and D being put back together after trying them split up. What does that tell you? Our team is best when they are together, period.

2008 was a complete team effort from goalie, offense and defense. Ozzie had what, a 1.5ish GAA??? We didn't need to score many goals to win. Cleary was terrible and Franzen was out down the stretch with that concussion. It limited our options a bit. But we won this year because every part generally worked.

2009 was a disaster that somehow became a masterpiece despite a game 7 Finals loss. I thought it was a better run because we never should've gone as far as we did with all the injuries we had. Datsyuk didn't play in 6 or 7 games and scored 1 goal. He was beat up bad, as was Hossa. They weren't capable of playing up to their ability and at that point, there's no way Datsyuk can carry a line on his own. That's the problem. Aside from our 5-0 blowout in Game 5, we only scored 6 goals in the last 5 games. We ended struggling with Dats and Z together. Doesn't seem like that's our "best" either, nor a good supporting example. After all, with as many injuries as we had, we never should've gone as far as we did. That was mostly on Osgood who was a win away from a Conn Smythe for playing even better than he did in 2008 with far less help.

And in 2010, when were we ever at our "best" in the playoffs? I seem to remember us getting our asses kicked by San Jose in the 2nd round. So how does that work?

Think of our top 2 scoring lines being centered by Dats and Z, each with a sniper like Hossa/Franzen as well as another solid winger like Cleary/Hudler (pre-Russia)/Holmstrom/Bertuzzi. Other teams are going to have a hell of a time playing against those lines. Then you throw in a 3rd line centered by a Modano type with probably someone like Bertuzzi (Huds can sign elsewhere in my world) and maybe an Eaves/Miller in the mix. Solid, cheap, capable. Then you've got a great checking line with the Eaves/Miller/Draper/Helm/Abs etc...whoever would be around in such a world.

Loose idea of current (if healthy) lines:

Holmstrom Datsyuk Zetterberg - $14-15 million
Cleary Filppula Franzen - $10 million
Hudler Modano Bertuzzi - $7 million
Draper Helm Eaves - $3 million

Total Salary - $34-35 million or so...

Loose idea of lines and salaries of what I'd rather see:

Holmstrom Datsyuk Hossa - $13-14 million
Cleary Zetterberg Franzen - $13 million
Eaves Modano Bertuzzi - $3-4 million
Draper Helm Miller - $3 million

Total Salary - $32-34 million or so...

I like those lines better and there'd still probably be a bit of money to spend up if we would've traded Flip and not signed Hudler. Not only do I feel that there's going to be more balance on the top 2 lines, I also feel like each line is going to be better defensively. The top two lines would be as strong on defense as offense while the 3rd line would benefit from Eaves moving up as he not only can score, he's also a solid guy at both ends of the ice. Plus, the 3rd line would have less pressure on them after teams chase around our top 2 lines. Our checking line is always strong for a checking line and Eaves and Miller would never have to sit out games...WHICH IS A CRIME!!!!!!!!!

I just see things being a lot more balanced with our inconsistent, over-priced mid-level players out of the picture. Spend a little extra to keep a guy like Hossa around who's willing to buy into the system on and off the ice and let Kenny and the scouts do the brilliant work they do in bringing in the overlooked and the forgotten vets on the cheap to round out a great offensive group. I think we score more goals and prevent more goals with those lines, and I think we skip unnecessary line-shuffling that occurs when you're waiting on your inconsistent guys to decide to produce.

Know where the brunt of your scoring comes from. Know where your support scoring comes from, Never compromise on defense. Everybody has a defined role and a spot that suits them. Simple.

#2089980 Flyers place Leighton on waivers

Posted by CanadaBoy on 03 January 2011 - 03:18 PM

He sucked in the Finals anyways.

Better then Howard...

#2089921 Flyers place Leighton on waivers

Posted by stevkrause on 03 January 2011 - 12:31 PM

You continuously out do yourself.


a list of things I take more seriously than mindfly:
1. A promise from a politician
2. The artistic musical styling of one Justin Bieber
3. The word of an AD in college football that there will not be a coaching change and they are committed to the current coach, after a couple sub-par seasons
4. Brett Favre's retirement announcements
5. The complaints of a woman wearing a low cut, 2 sizes too small shirt, that guys always stare at her boobs
6. The weather report

I could go on...

#2090329 Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

Posted by edicius on 04 January 2011 - 07:37 AM

Consider this, everyone: even Brodeur has accepted that he's not the clear-cut starter for the Devils anymore, since he's been significantly outplayed by Hedberg as of late. And you know what? Lemaire is leaning toward starting Hedberg in more games than Brodeur.

From TSN:
Brodeur is cold 0-3-0, 4.67, .783 in last 4 GPI (3.15 GAA, .882 SV% overall)
Hedberg 1-1-0, 2.14, .915 in last 2 GPI (2.93 GAA, .899 SV% overall)

Small sample size, but Hedberg's clearly performing better, so they go with him - even over Brodeur who is rarely shelved (though he's been pulled 7 times this season and only 8 minutes into his last game) except for injury.

Now let's look at Ozzie and Howard, again, from TSN:
Osgood is hot 1-0-0, 2.18, .944 in last 2 GPI (2.74 GAA, .905 SV% overall)
Howard is cold 0-1-1, 4.04, .860 in last 2 GPI (2.70 GAA, .908 SV% overall)

Hell, before checking this, I didn't even realize how close their overall stats had become. Overall, there's very little difference now - short term, however, Ozzie's clearly got the hot hand.

I can sort of understand, though, why Babcock is going with Howard against Edmonton - ordinarily, that's a game that he would throw in Osgood, because Edmonton's a s*** team. Does this mean that Osgood is going to start getting the Vancouvers and Washingtons of the league until he slumps while Howard will be relegated to the Edmontons and New Jerseys of the league?

#2090319 Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

Posted by Outsider on 04 January 2011 - 03:47 AM

Like it or not-- Howard is the future of the Wings in net right now. Ozzy is the past. And the difference between Howard's bad starts and Ozzy's good starts hasn't been large enough to justify switching the starter positions. That's why Howard gets the extra start. But because we're both math guys let's look at the stats:

30gp 30gs 20W-7L-3OTL 2.70GAA 0.908 Sv% 2SO

10gp 9gs 4W-3L-2OTL 2.74GAA 0.905 Sv% 0SO

I've watched the games too man, I know Ozzy's had a few good ones. But to characterise this situation as being a clear cut case of favourtism ignores the statistical evidence that says Howard wins 67% of his games and Osgood wins 44% of his games (all with nearly identical GAA and Sv%).

Who says Howard is the future? The guy couldn't crack the line-up for 5 years - not with numerous chances. Holland re-signed Osgood to partner with Legace. Then signed a geriatric Hasek the year after. Then Conklin. Then invited DAN FREAKIN' CLOUTIER to Camp! Howard only made the roster when the Wings ran out of options. And he only "earned" a shot at the #1 spot once Osgood went down with the flu/groin injury.

Since then? It doesn't matter HOW he's played, nor how his partner has played. He's been handed the Starting job, regardless of performance. Osgood hasn't even been allowed to compete with him for the job. He has been DESIGNATED as the Starter, just as Legace was in 2005-2006.

We all remember how well that turned out.

And bear in mind that Osgood is posting similar stats while coming in COLD, after sitting on the bench for extended periods of time, while Howard has had more than steady work to keep him in Game shape.

Babcock mucked up the goaltending in 2005-2006. He mucked it up in 2008-2009. He mucked it up last Season. And he's well on his way to mucking it up this Season.

Sit back and watch it happen.

#2090305 Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

Posted by Outsider on 04 January 2011 - 01:20 AM

LOL @ the mass of Barker Lounger General Managers/Coaches at times

LOL @ those who fail to see patterns emerging.

Like the fact that with each passing year, and the loss of more and more "Scotty Bowman/Steve Yzerman Wings", the Wings, (as a Team), get a little bit more scrambly.

Everyone here thinks Babcock is such a brilliant Head Coach. Come on. Dave freakin' Lewis coached this Team to the President's Trophy.

Fact is, when Babcock took over, HALF of the roster was filled with Player Coaches, (similar to Reg Dunlop in Slap Shot). Basically all Babcock had to do was show up, run practices, and fill out the line-up card. This Team knows how to Play. And how to Win.

As more and more of them leave, the Wings are losing more than just "aging Players".

They're losing a fantastic hockey mind, one who sees the game on the ice like a chess board, (Yzerman). They're losing a PP Coach, one who understands, from first hand experience, how to combine skill with grit, and to implement both to devastating effect, (Shanny). They're losing one of the best Defensive Coaches in the Game, one who has seen everything, in a 20+ year career, and knows how to respond in any given situation, (Cheli). They're losing an excellent strength and conditioning Coach, one who can mentor younger Players on what it takes to compete hard, every night, even with a limited skill-set, (Maltby).

As more and more of them leave, and the rest are disrespected by their own coach as "past their prime", their contributions held at little value in a "what have you done for me lately" philosophy.....

Perhaps some of the vets have been alienated. (No "perhaps" about it.....I've heard from multiple sources that THAT is a fact!).

And as more and more of them leave, and the ones who are left are NO LONGER treated with the respect they used to enjoy in Detroit, where they were considered valuable, battled seasoned warriors, rather than "washed up has-beens".....

Perhaps less and less of that "Red Wings Way" is being passed down to the next generation of Wings.

It's funny how people see Yzerman as "ready for retirement". How Shanny was "past his prime". How Cheli was "done". And how Maltby was "waaaaay done.".....

To the younger Players they were role models, guys who had BEEN there, done that, and had the Rings, and the scars, to show for it. And even if these guys were too old to be as effective as they used to be, they still had the knowledge to pass on from FIRST HAND experience.

Rather than someone who's gonna rail on you repeatedly about how to do a job HE was never "good enough" to do at the NHL level.

And while you can make an argument that the aforementioned Players HAD TO go, (and they did, it was their time.....), they didn't have to be treated the way they were BEFORE they left.

And don't think the guys who are left in the Room don't know it. Vet and rook alike. (Ask around......)

#2090220 Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

Posted by Outsider on 03 January 2011 - 09:58 PM

Also, for those saying that the Wings are not playing well....that they look uninspired....like they don't want to work for the full 60 minutes.

Yeah. You're all right.

Now consider the reports that nearly the whole Team, led by "Mr. Silent Leader" himself, Nick Lidstrom, went to Babcock and basically forced his hand by calling him out, telling him to "do the right thing" and let Osgood go for #400 at Home, in front of his friends, his family, and the Fans....

You don't think the guys in that room, many of whom have played the major portion of their careers with Osgood, and Won Cups in front of him, don't see what's going on? Don't see the double standard? Don't recognize how ridiculous it is to sit Osgood in favor of a struggling goalie, just to prove a point?

You think THEY aren't wondering what has to happen to get the struggling goalie OUT, and get the guy who's playing better IN? You think THEY aren't wondering WHY Babcock simply refuses to play Osgood? No matter what?

I mentioned it last Season, and was slammed for it.

They don't HAVE TO wonder. They know. And they are NOT happy about it, by all reports.

#2090206 Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

Posted by titanium2 on 03 January 2011 - 09:42 PM

Babcock just doesn't trust Ozzie? And why is that?

#2090200 Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

Posted by Outsider on 03 January 2011 - 09:40 PM

Howard = 2nd season = Sophomore slump.

Fine. If that's what it is, fine.

Then WHY keep him in there, Game after Game, and allow him to keep struggling, when you have a 400 Career Game Winner outplaying him when he's NOT stapled to the bench?

What happened to Babcock's mantra of: "It's about Winning. It's about who's playing better. It's not about personal accomplishments."?

Or is this no longer the NHL, where the goal is to WIN?

Are these no longer the Detroit Red Wings, whose goal is to contend for the Cup. Every year?

Is it now the Jimmy Howard Developmental League, where the goal is to "season" James Howard, and get him experience?

Ken Holland has ALWAYS held the opinion that he wants his Players, ALL of them, "over-ready" before they take on major roles with the Red Wings. What Babcock is doing flies in the face of that philosophy.

This should NOT be about Jimmy Howard, no matter how promising he appears to be. Because the fact of the matter is that there are MANY "promising" rookies and young Players who just never. pan. out.

Babcock is trying to force the issue. It's going to backfire. Detroit is NOT the place to "test" a rookie goaltender.

#2090172 Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

Posted by Outsider on 03 January 2011 - 09:10 PM

And really, what's the worst that would happen if Osgood did get going and take over heading into the playoffs? His last two playoff runs worked out pretty well for everyone...

Simple, gcom:

It would prove that Babcock was wrong.

Wrong to name Howard the Starter last Season. Wrong to bench Osgood for the entire second half of last Season. Wrong to stick with a struggling Howard in the Play Offs when he had Osgood on the bench. Wrong to name Howard the Starter this Season.

And Babcock will not allow himself to be proven wrong. Period.

We saw that first hand when the stubbornly refused to listen to the wisdom of Steve Yzerman, Nick Lidstrom, Ken Holland, and SCOTTY BOWMAN, as they ALL went to him in 2005-2006, and told him that it was a BAD idea to go with Legace in the Play Offs, and he should start getting Osgood prepared.

He refused. He wanted everyone to know that this was his Team. It was his decision.

He paid for it against Edmonton in 2006.

He paid for it last Post Season.

He'll pay for it again. Watch and see.

The man will NOT admit when he's wrong, and he refuses to learn from his mistakes.

#2090167 Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

Posted by Outsider on 03 January 2011 - 09:04 PM

I don't understand what Babcock is doing. I've always supported him, but his handling of the goalie situation last year and this year is just mind boggling. Howard is not playing well. Whether or not you blame him for losses, it's just a fact. Ozzie, on the flip side, is playing very, very well. Why NOT give him a chance? Howard, for the moment, has played himself OUT of a starting position, yet Babcock refuses to go to Ozzie who we know is capable of carrying the load if need be. It's almost like he forgets we have a 400-win goalie as our backup.

I understand he doesn't want to shake Howard's confidence, but that boat sailed a while ago. Howard has gotten into terrible habits and needs to retool his game (namely, not dropping to the ice every time the opponent comes into the zone), which he can't do if he's starting every game.

If I were Ozzie I'd be even more pissed than last year. Last year Ozzie deserved to not play, and he didn't. This year he deserves to play, and he's not.

Wake up Babcock!

It's pretty simple, VM:

If Babcock turns to Osgood now, odds are Ozzie is so fired up and hungry for the #1 spot, that he TAKES it. And never looks back.

What does that mean for Mike Babcock?

It means he was WRONG about the goaltending. It means that he was WRONG to stick with Howard as the Wings were driven to 7 Games against an inferior opponent, and bounced in 5 Games against a choke Team which was swept in the next Round.

It means that he made the WRONG decision to declare Howard the Starter to open this Season, without a hint of competition for the spot.

For those who state that "Howard is the Starter. You have to stick with your Starter."

Says WHO? What justifies keeping Howard as the Starter, when his "back-up" is outplaying him. Wasn't Osgood the Starter just LAST SEASON....until HIS "back-up" started outplaying HIM. Then a NEW Starter was named, based on merit.

When Legace was the Starter in 2005-2006, and Osgood was the back-up, it was: "Manny's the Starter. He's our guy, and we're gonna ride him."
When Dom was the Starter from 2006-2008, and Osgood was the back-up, it was: "Dom's the Starter. He's our guy, and we're gonna ride him."
When Ozzie was the Starter in 2007-2008, and Conklin was the back-up, it was: "Whoever plays better, plays."
When Ozzie was the Starter in 2008-2009, and Howard was the back-up, it was: "We're going with the hot hand."
Now that Howard is the Starter, and Osgood is once again the back-up, it's back to: "Howard's the Starter. He's our guy, and we're gonna ride him."

Anyone who fails to see the ridiculous double standard here is out of their minds.

It's quite simple. Babcock will NOT allow Osgood a shot, not even a shot, to re-take the Starting role. He'll keep throwing Howard out there, for loss after loss, regardless of HOW he's playing, until the TEAM pulls it together, and Howard starts Winning again.

THEN he can say: "See. It was just a slump. All is well now." Right up until the Wings are bounced out of the Post Season early, again.

He did the same thing in January/February last Season when Howard went 8-5-6, and was giving up 3+ goals per Game consistently. He just kept throwing him out there, Game after Game, after Game.