Jump to content

Shaman's Photo


Member Since 06 May 2007
Offline Last Active Today, 08:55 PM

#2518185 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by wings7 on 29 April 2014 - 12:57 PM


Holland's done plenty of good things. And some bad. Just like Bowman. Just like pretty much everyone who has dipped a toe in NHL waters.


Around these parts, I would argue he doesn't get enough credit. I tend to try and evaluate his work over larger periods of time that, IMO, have yet to expire.


We just disagree.


In the salary cap era. Holland has made a ton of bad moves.


Also, I'm not sure Scotty can be compared to Holland.


And not everyone has done some good and some bad. It's not that black and white.


Listening/Reading Holland's comments today instills no confidence that this team will be better next year.

#2518163 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 29 April 2014 - 12:14 PM


I feel like most GM'S are cyclical, usually they make some bad moves followed by some good moves and round and round it goes. Holland's issue has been that lately he's been lacking in good moves, and while you'r right he hasn't done anything crippling, he's hurt the team in other ways. Like wasting cap and roster spots on unworthy players, he also seems to have lost the midas touch in luring top flight UFA's. It's become strange that no top free agent wants to take the Wings money-maybe they're not offering enough?-I don't know... I don't advocate firing him, because who would the Wings get that was better? Sooner or later the fan base would turn on the new GM anyway. I would however like to see Holland get his head out of the sand and join the real world, he's got to realize his moves lately have been beyond atrocious; he's got to get off his hands and finally upgrade the D along with finding a scoring winger for Pav-while Pav is still at the top of his game.


I definitely agree with some of the things you've said.  For instance, Holland is notoriously stingy when it comes time to make offers to free agents (remember Wisniewski's 'market value' comment).  But I don't think his moves have been as bad as people think.  Hindsight has shown that some of them haven't worked out, but who could have known at the time.  For instance, it's easy to say that he doesn't attract top flight FA's, but Weiss and Alfie were both at the top of their respective FA cohorts.  Likewise, the Quincey move is generally considered bad.  But prior to coming back he'd been playing top four minutes and scoring around 30 pts. a season.  And he was young and still had development potential.  Easily worth a first at the time.  With Legwand I'd generally agree we overpaid, but Poile had us over a barrel and we knew it.  Even then, we were still getting a very good two way center capable of putting up good numbers.  It's mindblogging how he was used, but that's not his fault.  Tootoo?  Same deal as Legwand.  They both just did what they do, no knock on their game.


The two worst things that Holland did recently were bring back Cleary and give Sammy a No Trade Clause.  The first is defensible because Babs and the team leadership intervened on Cleary's behalf.  The NTC is indefensible and was just a plain bad move.  Neither of them, it turns out, actually impacted the team negatively all that much, though it maybe have impacted the Illitch's pocketbook (hard to feel bad for them considering they haven't paid taxes in about ten years lol). 


The question I would have is how high would the bar be set for Mantha to beat someone out? 


Very far considering he has no systems training and Babs runs one of the most demanding systems in the league.  This kid has zero chance of making the team next season.  Letting him learn the system in GR from Blashill is the right call, just not the sexy one. 

#2518120 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by Dabura on 29 April 2014 - 02:52 AM

I think the streak is amazing. I think the streak is important. But I think you have to be careful not to place too much importance on the streak itself. Zetterberg himself said he'd trade a season or two of the streak for a deeper run one year. Point being, the streak isn't really about making the playoffs every year. It's about sustained excellence, being in the mix for the Cup every season, not just being glad because "Phew! We kept a streak alive. Thank goodness. Now we can rest a little easier." The Cup is all that matters. 23 straight seasons is important not because it's a ridiculous streak, but because it shows a commitment to winning. But the Wings have to make good on that. The commitment itself can't be fetishized. There has to be some actual winning. Just making the dance isn't good enough, even in a transitional year like this one. It's really interesting to see Zetterberg basically say as much.


Then again, I suppose it's possible that the whole sustained excellence and commitment to winning thing might not be doable without yearly playoff revenue. It's entirely possible that Mr. I has been able to spend like he has largely because of the streak itself.

#2518167 Ken Holland Quotes (Apr 29th

Posted by Rivalred on 29 April 2014 - 12:20 PM

This just in, Ken Holland at Meijer, doesn't like the sound of the watermelon after doing the "knock" test, will wait and see how things playout as selection isn't ripe enough or overripe, will talk to Babcock via Kik during the summer

#2518101 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by drumnj on 28 April 2014 - 10:41 PM

Lots of talk throughout this thread of the needed right handed shooter who can rip it from the circle.

If only the Wings had someone who can blast it like this:

#2517803 The Franzen Hate.

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 27 April 2014 - 08:02 PM

"Lazy" "Floater"

I still don't buy into those excuses.

He's never been fast. He's never been physical. He's average at D. He has a good wrister.... So basically when he's not scoring he's going to look pretty invisible no matter what u do. He isn't Zetterberg or Datsyuk. He doesn't have elite top line skills like them that get you noticed even in a slump. And that's why he's not paid like them.


Not true.   We've just gotten used to his lazy floating. Early on he was a solid more of a solid two-way forward.  He's better than average at D when he wants to be.  He used to be on the second PK unit with Cleary. 



From 2005, and a reminder how he got his nickname:


To Yzerman's credit, it's a pretty good fit. Franzen, the Wings' third-round pick in the 2004 draft, has impressed teammates and coaches alike with his sturdy, dependable game and a tireless work ethic.

"Yzerman nicknamed him the Mule, and that's what he is: a big, strong guy who just goes over the top of you," coach Mike Babcock said





tireless work ethic?  Goes over the top of you?  I kind of remember a guy who would play like that, but haven't seen him in several years.   Franzen never goes around leveling guys, but he used to go to the hard areas of the ice.


Yzerman dubbed Franzen "The Mule" because of he was big, strong, and worked really hard.  Not because he was an unremarkable player with a good wrist shot. 


Several people have mentioned how we need big strong physical forwards to contend with teams like Boston.  What's sad is we already have one, he just doesn't play like it anymore. 

#2518046 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by wings87 on 28 April 2014 - 04:10 PM

Most fans wouldn't have a problem reigning Alfie, and that's just fine, but at some point we have to stop signing 35+ year olds who are on the downside of their careers. Why not spend the 3-4 mil Alfie will cost on a younger version of him.

#2517570 The Franzen Hate.

Posted by Rivalred on 27 April 2014 - 10:04 AM

"Girls just want to have fun" song comes to mind when I hear about Franzen; old Mule hang been around for a while, Eyore on the other hand?

#2517762 Was Legwand worth it?

Posted by PredsFanTheBayouState on 27 April 2014 - 05:57 PM

Oh god I'm so sick of the Jarnkrok talk already

I'm so sick of hearing about shea weber trade talks,but i have to deal with it,because they aren't gonna go away

#2517758 Was Legwand worth it?

Posted by Dabura on 27 April 2014 - 05:46 PM

It's all moot, though. Whether he was our best prospect or just one of our better prospects, the point is that the return for Calle Jarnkrok and a second-round pick was a few games from David Legwand (unless he re-signs. Though, even then....) The only way that doesn't hurt right now is if we rationalize it. "He was gonna go back to Sweden anyway." "He's not that good anyway." "We have too many centers anyway." "We need to get bigger anyway."



#2517748 Was Legwand worth it?

Posted by Dabura on 27 April 2014 - 05:35 PM

Not even close.  Mantha, Mrazrek, Jurco.


I'm not just making stuff up or talking out of my butt. For the past couple of years, when people would talk up our pipeline, Jarnkrok would usually be regarded as The One. He has a lot in common with Zetterberg. He doesn't have Mantha's size or mutant scoring prowess, he's not a goalie, he doesn't have Jurco's size or shifty hands, but what he does have is elite sense, very good all-around ability, that Zetterberg-esque knack for holding the puck and making plays out of nothing, and tremendous upside. I've seen him play. He's extremely impressive. (I have no real reason to be defending him. It's not like I'm especially biased about this. If I didn't think he was all that, I'd have no problem saying so.)


Saying he wasn't even close to being our best prospect is revisionist history after the fact. Same thing with "He had no future here, he was never gonna crack the lineup." What if Nyquist or Tatar had been moved? People would be saying the same thing. Hell, some people were saying that neither had a future here because too small not enough room blah blah blah.


Datsyuk won't be around much longer. Zetterberg is a warrior, but he's on the wrong side of 30. No one knows if Weiss will pan out. Legwand probably won't re-sign. Sheahan probably ends up a solid third-liner. Helm is a third-liner. Andersson is a fourth-liner. Glendening is a fourth-liner. Jarnkrok projects as a top-end two-way centerman, possibly one you can build a team - or at least a top-six unit - around. Guys like that are very hard to come by. I'm not talking mystical voodoo or rocket science here, guys. I'm saying we lost a guy who, a few months ago, was the face of the next generation. He struggled in the first half of this season, but he was adjusting to the NA game. He seems to have figured it out, and now I expect him to get better and better and better.

#2517404 The Franzen Hate.

Posted by wingfanatic4alltime on 26 April 2014 - 08:02 PM

No matter what this "mental situation" is he is still making I believe 4 million bucks a year.  People who make 10 bucks an hour or less go through crap too but yet we suck it up and still perform at work.  His ass has to go.

#2517694 Was Legwand worth it?

Posted by Dominator2005 on 27 April 2014 - 04:11 PM


I guess that guy named Jim Nill is stupid...

#2517664 Was Legwand worth it?

Posted by Matt on 27 April 2014 - 03:05 PM


#2517533 Was Legwand worth it?

Posted by FireCaptain on 27 April 2014 - 06:53 AM

 so...bring in Larionov and watch us soar!


I agree! hubba hubba!




wait.. wrong Larionov? How does the other one look in a lowcut blouse? haha