Unless there is another Lockout around the corner this should handcuff the Hawks pretty badly. If I got my math right thats over 25% (close to a third) of their current capspace tied into these two players.
Cap is gonna keep going up. These contracts won't be bad in 3 years time
To be fair, literally half of our defense can NEITHER play defense NOR score points. He's at least an improvement in that regard.
The problem isn't the lack of ability to defend, it is a lack of ability to move the puck out of the zone. Green would make this team MUCH better at that. Pair him with a Kronwall or Ericsson and all will be fine.
I've seen a lot of Tatar or jurco as a trade item. Why not Anderson? Washington needs centers and you could add franzen and or a pick to get the deal done. Anderson is already an extra piece in our lineup
Andersson is definitely expendable, he just doesn't have any trade value. You might get a 4th round draft pick for him if you're lucky. Even that I feel is being generous. He is solid defensively, and can chip in points from time to time, but he is too slow. That will always hold him back.
Keep Tatar over Jurco? Really?? Please tell me you're the only Wings fan that would do that... Jurco has top line winger written all over him. Tatar on the other hand is a middling 2nd, 3rd line winger. I guarantee when GM's are talking to Ken Holland, they are asking for Jurco long before Tatar is mentioned. But no need to worry because Green shouldn't cost anything close to any of those guys...
Ideally you'd like to keep them both, but if I had to choose one to trade, it would be Tatar. Not a knock on him at all, but Jurco is gonna be a special player. He has size and knows how to use it.
That be a foolish bet. Looking at guys like z dat Weiss and Franzen they're trending down injury wise. So why on earth would you expect it to be different? It's fine to hope and dream but you're basically asking for the sun to rise from the west...
The issues Hank have been having have been repaired. Weiss will be fine. He was stubborn and played hurt, and made things worst. He will be healthy and good to go this season. The extra long summer will help Datsyuk a lot. There are also no olympics to cause him to keep playing hurt so he can represent his country. Franzen being out from time to time won;t be the end of the world with the depth in the system. In the end, it is highly unlikely these guys combined miss anywhere close to what they did last year. Wouldn't be a foolish bet what so ever.
They clearly didn't know that Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan were ready to go... It took loads of injuries to find out. Same thing will happen again in all likelihood with the D. If there is anything you can expect from the Wings and Holland - they never change.
And what if Holland said screw it and went with the kids right from the start, and they struggled? Holland would still be getting bashed. Like it or not, a team will never willingly go into a season with half a dozen kids in the lineup. It's a risk no GM would take, unless it is a rebuilding team who has cleaned house of veteran players. In the end, they all got their chance to play. That's what matters. They have now earned their spots in the lineup. They weren't handed to them. Sure they had to play due to injuries, but if they didn't perform, they wouldn't have stayed. And before this past season, neither of those 3 players earned a spot on the Wings roster. They sure have since though. You could have made a case for Nyquist sure, but he wasn't the kind of player you put on a checking line. And you don't pass up on a guy like Alfie when a kid can still play in the AHL. Cleary was a big contributor in the previous playoff run. No surprise they brought him back. It didn't work out, but hey. When it never, the kids got to play. It's frustrating at times, yes. But that's the way it is.
I do think Marchenko has a great shot at earning a spot on the 3rd pairing. Especially if Holland can land an offensive dman via trade.
I'm not really advocating tanking, but it worked pretty well for Pittsburgh and Chicago. The structure of the league just lends better to a compete rebuild than getting stuck in mediocrity. The Calgary Flames are the perfect example.
The thing about Calgary is that while the team was declining, they had a very shallow prospect pool, so it all just kind of snowballed until they finally decided to embrace a rebuild. Wings don't have that issue. We have a very deep prospect pool, so while having a terrible year and a lottery pick would no doubt give the team a shot at getting a great, young talent (not a guarantee), with the depth in the farm it isn't necessary. The kids just need to get the experience and learn how to win at the NHL level. Just takes time. And once they get there, Holland has plenty of assets to make the moves that need to be made. All tanking a season would do is get a high draft pick that may or may not pan out.
That's true, I couldn't remember how many times he had traded down. And to be honest, I don't have a problem with trading #24 for #35 and #48. 24 and 35 are pretty much a wash anyway. Quincey is the one that's backfired. My issue is that Holland seems afraid to try to make more moves that could improve the team... sometimes standing pat doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help, either. No risk, no reward. Perhaps he looks back to the Oates trade or the big Oilers trade (Graves, Carson, etc.) where the Wings got burned and doesn't want to be that GM... I don't know.
If it were up to Holland completely, most of the "solid young core" would still be in Grand Rapids.
Moves will be made when the time is right. It is the right move to let the kids show what they can do first. The team has a nice mix of youth and vets right now as it is, so the team will be fine. When they are on the cusp of being able to make a run, moves will happen.
Not much progress seems to have happened when looking at the teams stats, but when you look at the roster, they have come such a long way. The team was able to reload quickly when the cap era began, as the defense was still led by #5. This reload is taking much longer, as the bulk of the defense right now is very young. But they'll get there. I said it many times before, but I'd bet money this season is when we start to see the upswing.
I was pumped when we got Carson, I thought he was going to be a stud here. He didn't perform badly, just not at the levels he did in LA and Edmonton... I forgot we got Coffey for him!
I completely agree with your last paragraph. He is afraid to move "assets"... I saw an interview with him on TV where he talked about that very thing. He said (paraphrased) that players were assets and you hang on to them, why would you move them? I was a little dumbfounded... Wayne Friggin' Gretzky has been traded! Twice!! You can move anybody you want! The last time Holland has traded what I consider a "roster regular" (top 8 F, top 4 D, starting G) was... 2001. Slava Kozlov. For Hasek, who would have been a UFA the very next day. I never really understood that deal. Why not wait, sign him, and keep Kozlov? Or move him for someone else? Also, I don't count Brad Stuart in that equation, since he was days away from being a UFA himself, and it was clear he was going back go Cali. (Side note... where was Holland when Stuart got traded to Colorado the other day??)
That was just bad, unlucky timing. Holland had high hopes of landing one of the UFA's, and by then Stuart was already moved. But them's the breaks
...although it seems now he isn't too concerned about making moves for an immediate run. But he also is NOT endangering our future. I like our kids and our top 25 prospects.
I definitely don't think it is the worst thing in the world to see what this roster can do with the kids having spots right out of camp. Getting that top 4 puck moving dman is the only glaring need, where as the rest can definitely can be gauged a few months into the season. If the team is competing and winning, the time would definitely then be right to put some of those assets to use to fill any holes in the lineup. As long as the moves make sense. But the kids have to take that next step in their development for things to get there. They got to show that they can produce consistently, and still make an impact against the best teams in the league.
SOW this isn't a shot at you, but there does seem to be a feeling that trading a young prospect only means we are going to get a 34 year old guy with 1 or 2 years left to play. Look at the 3 big F that got moved so far this off season: Kesler, Neal, and Spezza. None of those deals broke the banks of the teams that picked them up. Trueth be told, we could have made all 3 of those deals, been a much better team, and still had some young guys left over. Not to mention we had the cap space for it. While prospects are nice and all, most never pan out. That is true and will always be true. Same was true with the Nash deal, not getting O'reilly, and Ryan. That is 6 big time F that have been moved or available lately that we could have had, failed to get, all but 1 are under 30. Meanwhile we have been 15th or so in scoring the last 2 years, with most of our prospects burried in the minors.
Spezza wasn't a need, Kessler wanted either Anaheim or Chicago, and the Pens shipped Neal out west.
You said he "never" did anything to build for an immediate run and sacrifice the future. He did. Yes, it was a while ago, before the Cap. But that's not "never".
*edit-- 4 of 9 first rounders traded since 2006.
So Holland trading down first rounders because the player he wants is still available is hurting the teams future? I'd hardly call trading a late 1st for 2 second rounders sacrificing the future. Also, precap era trading firsts wasn't a big deal. They brought in players they wanted and had the money to keep them. Not to mention they were able to outspend almost any other team in free agency. Late first round picks were fairly meaningless for this franchise back then. You also can't consider trading a late first rounder for 2 picks hurting the franchise either.
The ONLY first round pick traded you can make any possible case for is the Quincey trade. That is one pick. One pick will not hurt this team in the long run.
Has he made moves for an immediate run? Yes. Has he ever hurt the future of the franchise by doing so? No.
I didn't say it was an underachievement...but because of those back to back, you would think that Canada would stay with the format. Yet, they are changing it. Its no secret players do not like playing for Mike Babcock. Maybe because he is a prick? Sure, you say Scotty was a prick and players didn't like playing for him, but players from 15 years ago and a different breed than todays players. Plus, Bowman is Bowman and Babcock is not. He is the issue here. Maybe its just time for a change because players just don't respond to him anymore, I don't know. But its sad when even Swedish defensemen are shunning the chance to come to Detroit.
What team were you watching last season? The players worked their asses off for Babcock.
People continue to blame Babs for UFA's not coming here. We missed out on Suter because he buddied with Parise. At one point Suter to Detroit seemed all but a done deal. Boyle went to the rags. At his age, why not sign with a team that just made the finals? Niskanen joined his buddy Orpik in Washington. Last year Holland got the two guys he wanted. They didn't seem to concerned about Babcock. People love a scapegoat. The first Babcock-less season the Red Wings have, a lot of people are gonna realize how wrong they are about him.
Babcock will be a great coach for Mantha. A player that size with the work ethic Babcock commands will be a great thing to see.
Do you really think NHL players don't pay any attention to other teams, other players? I'd bet that most of them have a good idea of what's going on in other cities. A lot of these guys have friends on other teams. They also play against these teams all season, every season. To say they don't study their opponents enough to know who's doing what for other teams... man, I wouldn't say that. And it's not one year of striking out, it's multiple years of July 1st and Trade Deadline swings and misses. Also, what do you call giving away early-round draft picks like Halloween candy in 1999 and sitting out the first round in 9 of the last 15 drafts?
You realize that most of those 1st round picks were traded before the cap era right? What does moves made in the precap era have to do with how the team is being built now? Short answer: nothing.
Thing is - the only thing we are doing right is drafting and developing. There are many other components of team management such as:
- conditioning (injuries)
- signing free agents
And we are failing in every category right now other than drafting and developing.
Conditioning: most injuries were from the old guys that didn't play a game. Out side of that, you had Helm with his freak bad luck, Hank with a bad back that was lingering for a few years (but is now finally fixed!), Weiss trying to play through an injury which has made it a lot worse, then just unlucky injuries to guys like Dekeyser. Datsyuk's injuries were the most concerning, but the extra long summer I'm sure will do him wonders as well. So with the old guys gone, Hank, Weiss, and Helm healthy, any injuries this season should be those that can be overcome. Should be a lot less pulled groins this season.
Trading: Moves are made when they make sense. Why trade prospects/picks now when many of the kids on the roster still have some improving left to do? Babcock has said himself that teams ready to make a run makes trades for the final pieces of the puzzle. The Wings aren't quite there yet. They will be. Making trades for missing pieces now just hinders the future. Build as much from within as possible first, THEN make trades. Why make trades now when some holes can be filled from within just by getting more experience? Just thins out the prospect pool for the franchise down the road, meaning we'd just have to deal with yet another reload in a few years. The team is building for long term success in the cap world. Be patient.
Signing UFA's: When this team is on the upswing again, it will once again become a place people want to play. Much like the fans who are calling for the team to tank the season, all UFA's see is the big picture. They see a Wings team that has been getting worst as far as wins/losses go. They don't see that a new, younger generation of Wings is slowly stepping it up and taking over. Once the young guns learn how to win, UFA's will want to come here again. One year of striking out on everyone is not the end of the world.
So no, Holland is not failing at everything but drafting and developing. Not saying he has been perfect. Like any GM, he has made mistakes. But he had made no mistakes that jeopardize the future of this franchise. He has never sacrificed the future of this team just to try and make a run at it all now.
Unless he can indisputably steal a top 6 foward's job out of camp (which is very doubtful), he should play the entire year in the AHL. He has a lot of work ahead of him to get his overall game where it needs to be for the pros.